I’m redoing a French ceramic tile roof repair on an old cabin in a few weeks.
My question is does it really matter to use copper roofing nails with the tiles or would galvanized roofers be alright?
I understand galvanic reactions with different metals but a ceramic or spanish tile roof is not going to cause any reaction.
Here’s a photo of the tile and roof.
This thoughtfully designed home preserves the character of its neighborhood while maximizing space for a growing family through careful attention to scale, rooflines, and material choices.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
You should use copper or SS nails. There's no problem with galvanic action, but the tiles will outlast the galvanized fasteners.
Cool looking place.
While you are there, could you move that second joistbeam from left so it is on layout for me. I hate lookint stuff that is throwing my eye off like that.
For aany 'lifetime' roof material, you want to use a liftime nail too.
Hot dipped galvies might if you get lucky in a dry climate.
But why try to depend on luck if you can just as easily use copper? Galvies will rust sooner or later.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I figured as much the logic of using a 100 year nail with a 100 year roof but wasn't sure there might not be some other reasoning. This cabin was built from walnut logs over 100 years ago and the back porch roof will have to be removed and reassembled. I was pondering a savings for the client.
This is being repaired more for their heirs then themselves.
Where you live, I'd go ahead and use hot dipped galvies. It's not like you were doing a roof in a salty atmosphere like the Gulf Coast. Those nails will almost never see water anyway, except in a driving rainstorm or a tornado.
That place must be 70 years old or so. What were the original nails?
I haven't been able to see what was originally used yet. The cabin I'm told was built in Arkansas in the early 1900's and taken down and moved to Cherokee Land around 1936. The tiles are marked made in 1916.
The need is to repair a small patch on the back porch roof but this is not a roof you can just pull up a small part of. You have to stagger back a lot. So much co for this repair I'm just going to remove it redeck and reinstall.
Here's a photo of the back roof.
That place looks great. No wonder they want to preserve it.FWIW, concrete tile mfr's specify 8d hot-dipped galvies these days.BruceT
FWIW, concrete tile mfr's specify 8d hot-dipped galvies these days.
FWIW, that's a pretty broad and incorrect statement. The concrete tile roof (Vandehey Raleigh) that I'm preparing to install spec's SS or CU.
And, this is terra cotta tile, not concrete, being discussed and an 8d is not the correct fastener. I've taken off and put back the same tile on several 70-100 Y/O roofs and the reason for the removal/replacement was that the galvanized nails and flashings rusted. http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
I've taken off and put back the same tile on several 70-100 Y/O roofs and the reason for the removal/replacement was that the galvanized nails and flashings rusted.
Thanks, I figure I may find copper up there when I start removing the tile. I shouldn't have asked about galv or copper, when I know I'm going to use copper anyway.
One of my pet peeves is asking people around me, How well do you do your job when there is no one around? If your doing something that no one can verify good or bad do you slack or do it right?
Know one would know for a long time if I used galv or copper. It would be long after the clients gone so what does it matter...
Frankly it does matter, to me. When I walk off this job or any job I want to be able to answer to myself.
"FWIW, that's a pretty broad and incorrect statement."A broad statement, perhaps, but not incorrect. OP's question was "can I use galvanized?" I said concrete tile mfr's specify 8d galvies (Actually it appears that they don't specify size, just minimum penetration). I did not say that ALL mfr's specify galvies.From MonierLifeTile specifications for all regions of the country:Nails: Conforming to ASTM A 641, Class 1. Sized to penetrate deck minimum 3/4 inch (19 mm) or through thickness of deck or batten.
1. Type: Aluminum.
2. Type: Copper or stainless steel.
3. Type: Hot dipped galvanized.BruceT
A broad statement, perhaps, but not incorrect.
I said concrete tile mfr's specify 8d galvies (Actually it appears that they don't specify size, just minimum penetration). I did not say that ALL mfr's specify galvies.
But, by the way you stated it, you implied "all" tile mfrs.
"But, by the way you stated it, you implied "all" tile mfrs."My statement is correct as posted. I implied no nothing more. You inferred "all".
BruceT
You inferred "all".
You inferred more than one by using the plural of "mfr". You only gave one example. And that example was for a different type tile than was being discussed. But, I'm guessing by the response you gave, you still don't get that.
Your example may have been correct in the proper context, but in this case it was wrong. Instead of using this forum to learn as well as educate, you have decided to focus on proving your "rightness".
You gave an answer to a question, but it was not the question asked.
Here's the installation manual for the Ludowici tiles the OP inquired about. See item 5 -FASTENING METHODS.
http://www.ludowici.com/tiles/image/Application%20Manual%20.Interlocking%20Profile.pdfhttp://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Maybe newbuilder has multiple IDs.
I had trouble connecting this weekend on a motel wifi connection with Firefox. I tried it with IE and was able to connect. Apparently, the last time I used IE to log onto BT on my laptop, I had used the "cu" screen name, so that's how it logged me on and continues to. I have to back out of it and re-log on to change back. Just haven't bothered. Maybe I'm getting schizophrenic.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
cu invented seeyou
rez was joking referring to another thread where a guy ( newbuilder) brought an attitude in with him
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
shame on you...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For the life of me I cannot understand why you keep trying to belittle me. What did I ever do to you?I made a "for what it's worth" post saying that concrete tile mfrs specify galvies. Most guys on this forum would have answered me with something like "Not all companies specify galvies. Some, like the Vandehey Raleigh I'm working with now specify only ss or copper." But you dismissed my whole statement as "broad and incorrect", leaving the clear impression that I must have been completely wrong.I knew that on the 31 houses I have worked on for Habitat for Humanity since I started volunteering in 2001, we have used galvies on concrete tiles. I answered your criticism with the statement that I did not say ALL tile mfr's spec galvies and to show you that at least some mfr's do in fact specify galvies, I included the relevant part of Monier LifeTile specs. I think most guys on this forum would have left it at that, but you seemed to be determined to "prove" me wrong somehow and you asserted that I "...implied "all" tile mfrs." Now you lecture me on the proper use of this forum? You criticize me for giving only one example despite the fact that you cited only one example in your original criticism of me? You assert that I "have decided to focus on proving [my]"rightness" when all I have done is try to deflect your repeated attempts to prove my "wrongness". You refused to accept my explanation of what I meant and launched off on criticism of my wording in order to justify your misinterpretation of what I said. OK, I'm sorry I didn't say "SOME mfrs specify galvies". Are you happy now?It's all a moot point anyway, since the OP liked Piffin's comment that galvies might be ok, but he preferred a "lifetime nail for a lifetime roof material". Come to think of it, I like that idea too.BruceT
I appreciate your input Bruce.
I have the manual CU is quoting. And while galvanized would be ok, I worry when I do something that isn't my bailey wick. Consequently I err on the side of a code plus attitude. Copper is what's to be used but my curiosity was why not galvanize since there is no reaction that would start rust or any type of failure.
All the sources I have asked even here just quote others without expressing first hand knowledge. There is no reason not to use galvanized nails except the assumption they would rust out in 60 or so years while the copper would not.
I'm 54 so a job I do today that won't have a chance of failing for 60 years sounds good enough. If they don't like the quality of my work in 60 years then they can dig my wormy arse up and kiss it!
But just in case I am using copper, since this is a cost plus job.
You guys have to learn to fight nice !!
" A quality job is it's own reward "
You guys have to learn to fight nice !!
You know that the guy standing on the ground antagonizing the guy on the roof with a tool belt full of blunt and sharp objects is at a big disadvantage.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
I worry when I do something that isn't my bailey wick.
Here's a little tip for laying those tiles. They tend to not be consistant in size.
Instead of laying them course by course from the bottom, lay them row by row from the right to the left. Measure and grade them before you start laying a row and gather enough of a certain width to complete a row. You can lay a wider tile above a narrower one, but not vice versa.
I make a grader for clay tiles. It's two pieces of 1x screwed together at right angles. On the horizontal piece, I make a series of marks corresponding to the various widths of tiles. Lay the tile on the board and bump the left side of it into the verticle member (I said verticle member) and you'll know if it's a wide, medium, or narrow. The French tiles you're working with don't vary as much as Spanish. You may only need two grades.
Snap lines out for each course and each row before starting. After you lay each row, snap a line on the tiles you just laid. You'll get off of your row lines somewhat, but the line on the tiles will keep you straight. If you're getting off of the row lines on the roof, try to adjust to it by using a row of wider tiles if you need to adjust to the left or narrower if you need to adjust to the right.
Have fun.
http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
After you lay each row, snap a line on the tiles you just laid. You'll get off of your row lines somewhat, but the line on the tiles will keep you straight.
That is an interesting idea. I hadn't thought about doing that. As for grading and sorting my intention is to remove and collate the tile on the ground to go back the same way. Stacks of 5 or 6 as they come off so there ready to go back on in the opposite way.
But for sure if I break one I'll need to find one the same size if they vary.
The Ludowici Company has been very helpful sending out lots od technical info. They have a great web site as you know but others might like to check out.
http://www.ludowici.com
I looked at the manual and the french tiles lay on a stagger. I haven't done one of them in 10+ years, so my memory is a little fuzzy. Forget about laying individual rows - you can't do it with the french tiles. Works great with the spanish. You might try racking (stairstepping) the tiles so you can walk on the dry-in rather than the newly laid tiles.
Laying out course lines on the dry-in before you start is indespensible.
We usually set up scaffold at the roof edge to stock the tile on so you don't have to take it to the ground or boom or fork lift it to the ground if necessary.
Here's some salvage yards:
http://www.tileroofs.com/fittings.htm
http://www.claytileroof.com/buy_sell/tile_slate_sales.asphttp://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Ya, I figured I'd have to stagger,(after a few beers that ain't so hard).
I have a 12' pic board I intended to set between two ladder jacks. I can set the tiles up on that then onto the roof like your scaffold would allow.
This whole problem came from damage to the roof in the center which is impossible to access without stripping down to it. By that point I figure just take it all down and redo. It's only a 12' x 24' area thank goodness.
This being something you regularly do how long should I expect it to take once the roof is ready and lines chalked to lay roughly 3 squares? What does a tile roofer get now a days for his labors?
This as I've said isn't my typical line of work. Like many of us here we have developed with time varied skill sets, I just have to rearrange a few of mine and I think this will go just fine.
I have a 12' pic board I intended to set between two ladder jacks. I can set the tiles up on that then onto the roof like your scaffold would allow.
Those tiles weigh over 1000 lbs per sq (I think that works out to around 7 lbs each). I wouldn't put too many on a pick between ladder jacks.
how long should I expect it to take once the roof is ready and lines chalked to lay roughly 3 squares?
By yourself on the maiden voyage? A long damn time.
We usually use one guy laying and two others moving the tile for him. You're going to have to be constantly getting up and getting back down and something's going to be in your way when you want to move.
What does a tile roofer get now a days for his labors?
$500-$600/sq to take off and put back including nails and underlayment plus flashings plus scafffolding. But, I've never done a job exactly like what you're undertaking. I've only taken the whole thing off and put it back or just replaced a few individual tiles. http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
I thought about the weight since the pic has a limit of 500#. That means my son and 35 tile at a time. Considering my potential speed and 133 tile per square it should take me I'm thinking 1 tile a minute. Considering my son's speed verses mine that might keep us both busy.
Let's see 133 divided by 60 equals 2 hours 13 minutes per square add breaks and potty stops it should take me ...
a long danm time,ya I think your right!
Actually with comps my average has always been 3 hours for 2 square,( I ain't speedy). So maybe I should adjust my thinking from 1 minute per tile to 3 minutes or 6 1/2 hours per square. Yep a long danm time is right.
A good ladder would be rated for 300# in deal situationsIf you and a helper are both up on that pi - the body weight, tools, and the picc are just about maxing it out.If you are alone, you ccould add a small pile of tiles.
Or you ould load them to a bucket loader to hold them up at a onvenient height behind you.I think of ladder jacks as being for painters to access - to for heavy loading. I don't know what they are rated at. Don't forget that they are focusing all that weight on one rung of the ladder. Take a good look at any rung you mount to
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are correct as usual!
I teased my partner over is recent purchase of a pair of ladder jacks because they stated a 300# limit. I thought mine were rated better than then that. I realized they were so old I don't know if they were ever sold with a limit.
With both of us on a 500# rated pic hanging on two 300# rated jacks hanging on a couple of 200# rated ladder rungs we might just find ourselves in the pyrocanthus someday. I never thought about my set of jacks that are the old riveted steel finger pinching @#*! I always thought they must be rated over 300# but not until he bought his set did I think about the ladder rung issue.
Sometimes we have little failures of logic. We think things thru but just not all the way.
I'm sure you know this, but for review with others who might be reading, none of those ratings is something to take as an absolute. There are too many variables.For instance, with the ladder rating - that is static dead load, with a new ladder at the optimal pitch, on perfectly secure and level footing.
But it is based on incorporating a safety factor - usually three to one - because load shifts, ladders wear and are never perfectly placed, etc. So a 300# ladder when new and perfect CAN handle up to 900# if you do not bounce. By the same token, a 300# ladder when worn a bit and improperly placed, could easily fail with a 250# man climbing it.It takes a good sense of judgement to make the call on site.Unfortunately that judgement can come from taking a few ladder rides
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
over time I think i've read all these posts and why does one use copper versus stainless steel?
how about cost too?
thanks
I can think of three reasons at least.SS will rust, given enough timeSS is quite hard while copper is more maleable. With this sort of tiles, it is easy for just a wee bit too much pressure at the connection point either from nailing it down or from walking on a tile later and rocking it a bit, to cause a crack there at the nail with too hard of a nail head. Also, all the SS nails I see have a smaller head than copper. There may be comparable ones available tho.Copper is traditional and proven. SS is only recently easily available
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
got it - thanks
So how'd this project turn out?http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
When I started to dismantle the back porch roof the tiles crumbled. We have a limited amount of replacement tiles and with the weather about to turn bad we decided to come back this summer and try again. I only had one other helper at the time. I hope to come back with four guys, all much lighter then me to get on it.
Thanks for posting the question. I'm sure many people learned something from it; I certainly did.Your work done with copper nails may outlast the roof structure itself. I had occasion to help a little with a project to replace rafters in a chapel on the Kaiserstuhl in Germany. Wood worms had gotten to the oak after a mere 700 years or so, but most of the existing tiles (centuries old, but likely not originals) were re-used, but not fastened with copper nails - nor any other kind.
As with many old buildings in Europe, these tiles have lugs on the underside near the top which hook on battens. The weight of the overlapping next course keeps the tiles in place and steep roof pitches seem to prevent wind-driven water from getting in. In a neighbor's 18th century house in our village I was shown the attic, which was lighted with some glass tiles that had been substituted for some of the original clay ones. With no nails, all you need to do to replace a tile is lift a couple of them, slip out the one below and slide in a new one.
BruceT
For the life of me I cannot understand why you keep trying to belittle me.
I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm trying to get you to understand that there is a difference between MonierLife concrete tile and Ludowici clay tile.
The advice you gave was correct for what you were familiar with, but incorrect and missleading for the question asked. The OP is re-installing Ludowici clay tile. This tile has a siqnificantly longer life expectancy than the average concrete tile. I've re-installed some Ludowici that's well over 100 years old and as good as the day it was made.
I've owned a house with 70 yr old concrete tile and it was getting in poor shape. It certainly looked bad. I've replaced many more that are younger than that.
I don't have a problem using galvies with concrete tile if the instuctions allow it. From what I've seen, those nails will last as long as the tile (especially MonierLife). But, clay tile is a different animal. From what I've seen, some of it could easily last 200+ years. It sucks to have to have your whole roof removed and put back on because 50 years ago someone decided to save a couple of hundred dollars.
Tile roofs and metal roofs are all very proprietary. Each brand has very specific installation instructions. That's why my fur came up when you typed "FWIW, concrete tile mfr's specify 8d hot-dipped galvies these days."
My appologies if I came off the wrong way, but I feel like you were dispensing incomplete advice. That's the problem with this medium. If we'd been face to face, we'd probably have had a very pleasant and civil discussion about this.
Cheers.
http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Edited 10/24/2007 5:54 pm ET by seeyou
"My appologies if I came off the wrong way, but I feel like you were dispensing incomplete advice. That's the problem with this medium. If we'd been face to face, we'd probably have had a very pleasant and civil discussion about this."Thanks for the conciliatory post. I think we're having that pleasant & civil discussion right now. Yes, I think my answer to Jagwah was incomplete, focused narrowly on the question "can I use galvies".Your comment about galvies being good enough for Monier concrete tiles but not for clay that can last 200 years makes sense. Here in So Cal it seems that nothing is expected to last very long (especially this week)so a 60-year roof sounds impressive and 60 more years on an already 90 year old cabin seems all the more so. Unfortunately our old buildings - Craftsman bungalows and some late Victorians - are more likely to be torn down than restored. Most of our clay tile roofs are on Spanish stucco houses that were popular in the 20's and 30's and many of them are in bad neighborhoods now and therefor endangered. You seem to take a longer view than most people and you are clearly focused on quality over cost.BruceT
You seem to take a longer view than most people and you are clearly focused on quality over cost.
Often enough, the more expensive (in up front costs) solution is actually the least expensive when amortized over it's life span. For instance, it's actually cheaper to install a copper roof that will last 100 years vs 3-4 asphalt shingle roofs to last the same amount of time and the copper can be recycled at the end. But, to make that investment, one has to be reasonably sure the other building components are up to snuff.
If I'm working on a structure that was built 100+ years ago and is expected to last for at least another century, I have to repect that.
If I'm working on a house sided with vynal and 1/2" osb roof sheathing on 24" centers, my mind set changes.
In jagwah's case, somebody decided that cabin was worthy of one of the most expensive and long lasting roof materials made.
My last house (that I spoke of earlier) had concrete tiles that were attached with a lug over a batten system. No tools necessary to replace one. 18/12 pitch made it a little tough to get around on. Some of the clay tiles are also lugged. http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do