Can anyone give me the approximate cost of installing icynene vs fiberglass batts. Just looking for ballpark numbers here.
Thanks
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Fine Homebuilding's editorial director has some fun news to share.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Just a WAG. Between 3 and 4 times $ for foam but well worth the money.
Four times the money and worth it? Pretty hard to believe if you actually value money.
Example.
If it costs. 3k to use FG and it costs 1k to heat your house each years. And if the opportunity cost of your capital is 8%. Then to spend 12k to use Foam would need to save you $720 on the FG annual cost of $1000. So foam is going to give you a heating bill of $280 each year I doubt it.
Yes the 3k figure is pluck from the air, but I used your factor of 4 to do the calculations. And I heat my FG insulated home with 2600 sq ft for about $1000 each year.
So if the FG cost is 6k and not 3k and the foam cost is 24k and not 12 k, the math gets worse.
People constantly say "IT is way cool better", but never, never, never, attach any analysis or facts. I am certainly open to the idea, but where are the numbers?
I don't see any mention of comfort or drafts or quiet in your figures.
There's a price to be paid for poor insulation that may not be a dollar amount.
DoRight would seem to indicate a perception of quality that might not be strictly monetary?
Joe H
Drafts? Well in theory, I suppose. Another nebulous sales pitch. I can honestly say I have only been in one house that I ever felt a draft, that was a two hundred year old colonial. Now, glass cold to the touch? Sure, but foam or FG does not fix that.
So for me it is a monetary issue. There just ani't no difference in the feel of the house. VAlue ? ZIP. I certainly leave teh issue of drafts up to the buyer, but again, I have never experienced teh issue.
I noticed you did not post any analysis. Once again. . . . .
Here is another example:Via Icynene and Corbond we reduced the heat loss of this 130 year-old house by 4x. One of the most important reasons was reducing the infiltration from over 1ACH to about 0.2ACH. There is more to insulation than just R-value. Was it worth the extra $$$ to get Icynene and Corbond? Well, according to my heat loss program and my own thinking, yes. But to each his/her own.
You might want to also consider dense pack cellulose.
It's in between FG & foam.
FG is a waste of money. the colder it is the less it's worth.
Joe H
It depends on what you want it for. If you want the whole house done then it will be probably about 2.5 times, maybe 3 times. If you want for a conditioned attic (sprayed on the underside of the sheathing with no roof venting) then its about 2x since they do not need to cut off and haul away the excess foam. If you use it for the walls, the labor price is more since they need to trim then scrap studs for the drywall to sit flat. Ceiling installs don't require much trimming so that doesn't add costs too much. The material for the foam is expensive though, so the cost starts at a certain point and rises with labor.
Best insulation possible though, see if you can get energy rebates to cover some of the costs.
North,
I am located in Texas so cooling is more relevant than heating. Last year we gutted and remodeled a 3000 sf doctors office. Proir to remodel monthly electric bill was $600 to $800 per month with FG insulation in walls and ceilings.
After remodel monthly electric bill was $200 to $300 per month with Icynene in walls and rafters. Cost of Icynene was 2x FG
I am not sure if those are sufficient data for DoRight but they are good enough for my clients. Payback in this case is about 2 years.
We are currently finishing up a house and do not have gas hooked up. Past couple of weeks have been rather chilly. We are using a single cheap electric space heater. On the low setting, the ambient temp in the 3100 house is 70 degrees and we do not even have the exterior doors cased yet.
I am sold on foam insulation and would recommend insulating the entire envelope of your house.
Bruce
It's a start.
Bruce, those numbers look excellent.
I'm going to take a serious look at the icyene for the school.
What are the drawbacks besides the extra initial cash outlay? Are their offgases?
blue
I have not experienced any drawbacks. The pluses I see are
1. Totally seals off structure
2. Highly effective in reducing heating and cooling costs
3. The foam filled cavities do seem to stiffen the structure-No I have not measure it-just my sense
4. Great noise reduction-Any walls we did sound proofing on- you have to stick your head out of the door to hear other parts of the building.
5. No fiberglass to deal with when you are working
6. No offgas experience to date.
I guess one draw back is having to chop out the foam if you need to relocate a switch or wire.
Bruce
It cost me $2180 (around there) to Icynenate 1560 square feet of 4" walls, ceiling and crawlspace. I had about $600 worth of fiberglass before that I put in myself... it probably would have cost $1200 easily to have someone else do it. I tore out all the fiberglass and gave it away... it barely kept my place warm... the air infiltration index of fiberglass is very high. My heating bill with fiberglass was over $100 a month. Now with Icynene it is about $40 a month. I didn't even have to turn the heater on until the second or third day of below freezing temps... the residual heat inside kept the place warm.
So yeah it is about 2 to 3 times the price of fiberglass. But it outperforms fiberglass by a factor of 4 to 5 easily. Once you have Icynene, the price of it is forgotten very quickly. I forgot about the price of my install the day after lol. I still ache about the $600 in fiberglass I gave away because I had no use for it :)
Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Thank you all for the quick responses. I actually used dense-pack cellulose for my own house and am very happy with it. I'm writing an article that includes a comparison of various insulation systems, which is why I need the info.
DoRight,
I agree that we often neglect the facts and hard analysis needed to make accurate and relevant comparisons. With that in mind, consider that most people borrow money over a 30 year period for a construction project rather than using capital that could be applied elsewhere. At current rates, borrowing the additional $9,000 (from your example) would cost roughly $55 per month. That would mean a $660 annual savings in heating and cooling costs (not too far off from your numbers) would be necessary to break even over 30 years. But that doesn't take into account the likely increase in fuel costs over that time. Home heating fuel could easily have quadrupaled 30 years from now. And do we only build for the next 30 years? Aren't our buildings supposed to last many times that long? What about the huge externalized costs of pollution due to home heating?
Just some more data to plug into the equation.
Edited 12/12/2006 5:01 pm ET by Northboundtrain
Sure, but REAL analysis should be available from non-bias (non-sale, non-installer, etc). I know of no such source. All is anacdotal (spelling?).
Seriously, I WANT TO BE SOLD on the stuff!
Something else to consider is that Icyene tightens up the structure and keeps bugs out. Also on dow board sheathing it seals the cracks so you don't have to tape.Also it reduces exterior noise.
I did mine 15 years ago and batted the walls after the spray.It has easily paid for itself and was one of the smartest extra money I spent on my own house.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I don't know how much a problem bugs are in a decently built house to begin with. But an interesting point. Will carpenter ants not build nests in foam? I would think it would be a great place to live.
If you can make a rhetorical comment about bugs you couldn't really live in Texas, I lived there for 7 years and I know first hand.
Well, I don't and what rhetorical question? My post was "
I don't know how much a problem bugs are in a decently built house to begin with. But an interesting point. Will carpenter ants not build nests in foam? I would think it would be a great place to live.
So in Texas to ants live in foam?
Just wanted to pipe in and say good discussion guys I'm having fun reading this thread. But doesnt sprayed foam insulation HAVE to be covered. I thought that if it is exposed and burend it would let of a cyanide gas(spelling) which would not work for rim joice.
Edited 12/17/2006 6:35 pm ET by kayaker
Yes, it has to be protected from fire. I called Corbond and confirmed the answer with the head inspector in our county that the fire barrier (at least 1/2" drywall) does not have to be in contact with the foam, only that a fire barrier exist between the foam and the occupied space.Steve.
I'm a builder. I sometimes use an open cell spray foam. I actually prefer to apply 2" of polyisocyanurate to the exterior and leave the stud cavities empty. It's way better than cavity fill insulation.
Here are some numbers for you on a 2000 square foot house.
cost of fiberglass insulation with foam at plates windows doors and penetrations 3800$
cost of spray foam demilec sealection 500 including windows doors and penetrations at walls and underside of roof deck 6400$
savings from using 20 non IC rated recessed cans (no insulation at ceiling) 600$
savings from using one less ton of AC 3000$
savings from not using soffit vents and ridge vents 600$
extra costs are 2600$ savings are 4200$ net cost to use spray foam -1600$
100$ electric bills in Texas in July priceless
Your savings may vary
There is only one planet earth. How many chances do you think we get with her?
Interesting.
Interesting point on the cans.
Now, you are saying you don't vent the roof? First why is that? Secondly, I understand that can be an issue with inspectors (hot vs cold roof).
A question: In a cathedral do you fill the bay from drywall to roof shealthing? If not I beleive that is a fire code issue. NO?
AC unit issue is not a issue in many areas. Certainly not for me. I would not have AC.
Lastly your 3800 vs 6400 is hardly the 3 to 4 time the cost figure commonly quoted here. Why do you think that is?
Ok, lastly NOW, if the figures pencil out as you say, it is a no brainer and yet nearly no one does it. HMM?? Something don't add up.
Ok, lastly NOW, if the figures pencil out as you say, it is a no brainer and yet nearly no one does it. HMM?? Something don't add up.
All things add up. But we can't forget that the totals mean different things to different people.
Builders are very important in determining what the standard is for "normal" houses. The builders also try to build as cheap as possible and keep their initial outlay as low as possible. They are not around when the savings occur, so it's not a factor for them.
Builders convince the general buying public that their product is the best. If you don't believe me, walk into a model and ask about fiberglass. You'll hear five reasons why it's the best.
blue
You miss the point. Others say Foam costs 3 to 4 times FG is just the base figures. You say 3800 vs 6400. That aint 4 times, it aint 3 and anit even 2. ????
Here you go.My shop if insulated (roof deck and walls) with Icynene at the .35 cent per board foot quote I got would be about $6500 (might be a little less for a quantity discount). The insulation contractor I had come out gave me a quote to do the job with FG for $1400. That's a 4.6. Going to do the job myself with dense pack cellulose.Steve.
dense pack cellulous will cost you?
Haven't worked the exact numbers out. It will be better insulation than FG and cost less than spray foam.Steve.
I used dense pack cellose for the first time this last weekend. Framed the walls then glued the dry wall. I drilled my hole at the top and snaked my hose down. Dense pack is so much easier than FG. The only mistake I made was downsizing into a 1.5" corragated hose. When it started to pack, the hose would clog. Should of shopped around more for a smooth wall hose (vinyl)
You miss the point. Others say Foam costs 3 to 4 times FG is just the base figures. You say 3800 vs 6400. That aint 4 times, it aint 3 and anit even 2
You're missing my point.
A builder will look at your 2600 difference and say to him self, "I can put the 2600 into their pocket, or mine. I think I'll put it in mine." The thinking stops there. It doesn't get projected into the future. The future is now for builders. For some, there ain't no tomorrow if they don't get that 2600.
Understand that they also employ that same logic against the other 28 contracts that they contemplate on the project. Your 2600 of today's dollars have to be multiplied by the number of times a builder encounters better ideas that "only cost a little more".
blue
Yes, yes, yes,yes. I heard you. Once agian. 3400 vs 6200 (I am getting tired, so what ever the numbers were) anit a factor of 3 or 4!
Now, you are saying you don't vent the roof? First why is that? Secondly, I understand that can be an issue with inspectors (hot vs cold roof).
There is plenty of info here and elsewhere about unvented attics. Try http://www.buildingscience.com.
A question: In a cathedral do you fill the bay from drywall to roof shealthing? If not I beleive that is a fire code issue. NO?
That would be a no.
AC unit issue is not a issue in many areas. Certainly not for me. I would not have AC.
OK so figure it out in heating system costs. The point is that there are many savings that can be taken to offset the cost of spray foam.
Lastly your 3800 vs 6400 is hardly the 3 to 4 time the cost figure commonly quoted here. Why do you think that is?
The cost of the foam is based on an estimate that my foam guy gave me tonight. 2000 square feet of 2x4 wall at 1.05 a foot and 2000 feet of roof at 6" thick at 2.15 per square foot. That is the actual cost quote for sealection 500. The fiberglass cost came from 7 year old memories. That's how long its been since I used that stuff.
Ok, lastly NOW, if the figures pencil out as you say, it is a no brainer and yet nearly no one does it. HMM?? Something don't add up.
There are a lot of misconceptions about these issues. According to the federal covernment, you are 11 percent more likely to die in an SUV than you are in a car but most people think that the SUV is safer. It's a perception that ignores the facts. Manufacturers spend their money on advertising and thereby manipulate public perception. We just have to get our education from other sources. It's ok though as the foam guys are selling more and more of it and if everyone switched at once the price would skyrocket. The foam manufacturers are building new plants. Fiberglass has only one advantage and that is rated R-value per dollar. Performance of fiberglass is marginal.
Again, I don't even use spray foam in most of my houses. I use 2 inches of foam on the outside of the wall and 4 inches of foam on the top of the roof. I air seal the structure first with a rubberized asphalt membrane and use that to pan and head flash the windows. My airtightness is .038 ACH. Why doesn't everyone do it? They don't know and there isn't some huge manufacturer pumping millions of dollars into advertising. I fell in love with fiberglass as a kid when the pink panther started selling it. What we need is some green critter selling us a better idea. Spray foam is one.
There is only one planet earth. How many chances do you think we get with her?
...Ray what part of the country are you in building like that?..I'm just curious.. and then just for the record.. I believe the price you quoted on the icynene may be the installers cost .. unless the Demi or Seal is much cheaper. We can expect to pay $1.70 p/sqft for 2x4 .. and $2.20 to $2.50 p/sqft for 2x6 to 2x8 around here. Western Mass.ciao!http://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
Demilec is cheaper. This is an installed price including cleanup. Icynene is a good bit more costly as a result of development and advertising costs. In my opinion, Demilec and others are riding the coat talis of Gabe Farkas, owner and developer of Icynene. If budget allows, try to give him your money. He deserves it.
I'm in Texas. This system can be used in any climate in the world. It was first developed by Neal Hutcheon in the late 50s in Canada. Products have changed since then but the physics remains the same. If you keep the moisture susceptible components of a structure at room temperature, then condensation will not be an issue. This system also virtually eliminates thermal bridging, wind washing effects, and moisture migration through the wall structure.
If you spend time studying the physics of heat air and moisture and their impacts on buildings, you will find that this system addresses every concern. It is the best kept secret out there, primarily due to a lack of education in the building community. Builders don't tend to study physics and building science, even though it can save them from costly building failures and poorly performing product.There is only one planet earth. How many chances do you think we get with her?
Do you have an Icynene insulation installer close to GB? I am looking for one to do a job in New Milford, CT.
you could call CAS Inc. in Pittsfield MA. I'm not sure wether they travel that far. There is a company I have used ..King Levy Inc. down your way that I would NOT recommend. (p.s. if you call CAS, dont go telling them I told you those square foot costs. They may have different numbers for different sites and what not)arthurhttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
Thanks for the referral. I will be asking for a price so I will not shop your pricing.
Pebble, your statement "the air infiltration index of fiberglass is very high" is certainly true. No one would quibble about that. We also know that fiberglass works much better if its not subject to air infiltration.
It sounds like your walls were open, which would allow a significant amount of air infiltration and change the equation of how insulations work in the finish.
Am I wrong by guessing that your walls were open?
blue
The air infiltration index also includes convection currents. The walls were a brick block with stucco. The difference in temperature between the block and the room with the fiberglass in between caused some pretty significant convection currents. A good way to envision this is to stand at the top of a stair way and feel the warm air rising. Warm air would become bereft of its heat as it contacted the block wall. There is 2x4 framing erected on the interior for the drywall. Once the Icynene was placed any convection currents were eliminated. A house can be well sealed but if the insulation still allows air movement then it is compromised. Dense pack stops this and is a second choice, with fiberglass being third.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Quote I got for Icynene was 35 cents per board foot.
Steve.
The Icynene numbers you get will vary from place to place and with job size. Here in Toronto it's around $2.75/sq ft for 5.5" depth, full bays with trimming and clean-up. Minimum charge ~ $7-900 regardless of area sprayed.
Upsides? Seals and insulates well. Gives support to the drywall, making it feel stiffer. And spray foam is the only thing that does a decent job at the rim/band joist space without huge labour. Note that this space at least should be closed-cell foam (polyurethane- Corbond or the like) so that it acts as both insulation and vapour barrier.
Closed cell PU may stiffen a structure, but Icynene doesn't stiffen it appreciably. And if badly trimmed, it may cause your drywall to bow between studs. Tough to fix that if you don't notice the odd high spot until after your VB is in place.
Downsides of Icynene, aside from the cost? If you can get the wretched Search function on this site to work, look up my thread. If the Icynene contractor screws up during the install, you can get persistent odours which last for months if not years, even through an intact vapour barrier. They sprayed too much resin relative to the isocyanate, and then sprayed foam over it. Thank God it happened only in my shop and not in my living space! And the contractor would not stand behind their work, once they found out it was not an Icynene chemicals formulation problem that Icynene would pay for. I'll be suing them when I get the time. Properly installed it's odourless in a few days and from then onward.
My recommendation: get a guarantee, in writing, that the contractor will rip out and replace the material at no cost to you if it has a detectable odour beyond 1 week- or walk.
Give dense-packed cellulose a serious look, but I think it still makes sense to get the rim/band joist area spray foamed. Mike Smith may differ, and he's got a lot more credibility than I do, so listen to him!