Nothing high tech here. Just wondering if anyone can save me the legwork of the price comparison of Ipe vs. Mahogany for a 24′ x 30′ deck job. I haven’t used Ipe as yet but I like what I see with the fastening system for the boards and rails. Any input as to the merits of Ipe in the ortheast are greatly appreciated.
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Best bet on price is find the local supplier and check - and I'm not being a smart alec. Here the price per bf varies greatly depending on the size you need. 2x2 balluster stock is as cheap is SYP. When you go to longer or wider stock - like 1x8's then the price is comparible to a good hardwood, like mahogany. I have assumed thus far that the low price on small stock is simply a good way to get rid of off cuts, but don't know. The stuff has got to be more durable than mahogany though. I've got a chunk of it sitting here as a gee whiz piece for people that come into my office. Nobody can make a scratch in it with their nails. Little scrap is hard as a rock and heavy.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
First of all thanks for the response and I love your Mark Twain snipit. What I'm really looking to gleen re: pricing is that the stuff overall wouldn't cost more than a full cedar job. It sounds like thats what your insight is. Is that correct?
Oh heck no. Way more than PT or Cedar. You're up in the neighborhood of man made stuff like Trex and Timbertech. IMHO, worth it, but that's one of those things - your opinions don't always get to write the checks.
As to tooling, you are correct. It is very hard, dense, and heavy. Ipe also has some silica content which as you might surmise is not the friendliest on bits and blades. I would opinionate that carbide is a must, nailing won't happen, and the screws will all need to be piloted with a countersink. You will also find when you grab the sander and go to smooth things out that your 220 grit paper is pointless. You want a very sharp sandpaper and a more agressive grit than you are used to with other woods. Compare it, for the sake of argument, to getting used to how your sander works on pine and then one day discovering rock maple. Do that again, and you've got Ipe."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I did a price comparo this summer, and IIRC, the PT was cheapest, mahogony in the middle and Ipe and Cedar on top. There may also be increased labor costs and tool costs associated with the Ipe that none of the others share.
Maybe the all knowing Pro Deck will pop in here and shed some light for us!
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I'm getting ready to install an ipe deck and got a price of $1.60/lf of 5/4 X 6. I figure that's about $3.50-3.60 per sq. ft. Not cheap, but durable. I plan to counter sink ss screws and plug the holes using ipe plugs set in with polyurethane glue. The fastening system the lumber yard suggests uses biscuit slots and runs about $1 per square foot, if I remember correctly. I'd rather use screws. (My place, cheap labor) I'm told there will be some shrinkage so I plan to butt the decking close together. Thoughts?
Thoughts..you can span 24" with 4/4 Ipe..if you have 5/4 it will be overkill. Shrinkage? not as much as you may think..much less than SYP or Cedar. Use an endgrain sealer at ALL cuts..it will check. If ya screw it ...get alot of 5/32 pilot bits and no.1 sq. dr. bits for the #7 Stainless 2'' screws you will use. Practice the drilling /driving tech. on some scrap or end cuts..not too deep, not too shallow..Have a pr. of visegrips handy for the spun out heads, and a large punch and heavy hammer for the ones ya can't yank back out, and hope they are in the field and not at a butt. A light sanding with 150 grit silicon carbide paper and finish with Pen-O-Fin...there ya have my 2 cents..
I was gonna include a pic..next post
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Edited 3/17/2004 2:04 am ET by SPHERE
Here is an Ipe deck from last year.View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Beautiful work, as is yours', BillW. Thanks for the advice. Indeed I was planning to drill oversize pilot holes to minimize screw breakage, and have fould the clutch adjustment on my drill to be a good self-protective device for this as well. I just finished a project where I had to counter-sink about 3 million tiny brass screws in cherry, and after breaking the first dozen or so I got wise...
Great advice on treating the end cuts...I'd forgotten that. What sealer do you suggest?
What spacing did you use for this job? Seems butting the planks together gets negative responses, although to the point of debris accumulating on the surface, this is a problem with any spacing less than 1/4"...all a function of the size of the debris! Besides, I need an excuse to buy a power washer.
Again, thanks to all for the excellent advice and ideas. Seeing your work motivates me. Lofton
Thanks for the compliment! A couple of comments:
1. I found that a cordless impact driver made a world of difference in installing the stainless screws.
2. Yes, make sure the hole in the Ipe is a clear hole, all the way through, or you'll be shearing screws off like mad - sounds like you know that already, I figured it out as I went along. D'oh!
3. I think Anchor Seal is the product everyone uses on the end cuts - a quart will last you the rest of your life - it seems to be just liquid wax. BTW, I used a router with a round-over bit to dress up the cuts that showed (esp if you have any butt joints).
4. I've heard horror-stories about power washing decks (raised grain), so be careful.
Bill.
Yup, as Bill said..that waxy sealer stuff..it came with our load, did not order it myself..It also works GREAT on your boots to waterproof them..we had a rainy spell while doing that deck..and I just brushed a coat right on the old clodhoppers..feet stayed nice an dry all summer!
Space with an 8D will be about as good as it gets..IPE is very consistent in widths..deadnuts on 5 1/2 ...
I would not be inclined to power wash it , but maybe someone has..it is real tuff stuff to actually hurt it..the guys moved a 750lb hot tub across his deck with no effect.
Have fun.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Hey,
VERY NICE rails. I assumed you use wood for the square balusters. what are the thinner pieces made from? I can't tell from the photo. My immediate reaction was pipe. painted conduit? I'm thinking maybe useing copper pip, be interesting when weathers!
Thanks
by the way I used Eb Ty's on a 5/4 x6 deck. Fount a lot of cupping going on. Also the labor time really went up. I think if I did it again I might use a router and slot the entire board. as long as it wouldn't crak. Maybe I'll run a test
Thanks
3/4'' black annodized aluminum pipe, drill a 13/16 hole, the annodizing makes it bigger by a tad.
The squares are 2x2 Ipe. baluster stock.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
re price - I paid about $2 a square foot for the Ipe used to re-build my porch last fall. It was maybe 10-20% more than mahogany (of course, mahogany prices are all over the map). If you're in the northeast, anywhere near Stoughton MA, check out Downes and Reader - great wholesale/retail supplier of hardwood, better prices than internet suppliers with great local service.
I used 4/4 1x4 to reproduce the look of the original fir, pre-drilled and screwed (framing 160c). I felt that the clips created too large of a gap for my taste, and the screws almost disappear when you recess the heads a little - I haven't bothered to go back and fill the holes.
It has weather nicely so far, even with salt all over it this winter - it's fading to a nice gray.
Here are my pix - not as awesome as Sphere's work, though ...
Bill.
Has anyone used and have an opinion of the EB/TY fastening system with the pre-grooved IPE planking? Its very intriguing. Bill
I found the EB Ties fussy to work with in addition to being pricey. I think the best result is obtained by face screwing the ipe and plugging each screw hole. I tried Gorilla Glue on the plugs and if too much glue gets under the plug, it will blow the plug out as it expands when it cures. West System epoxy would be a better choice and you might want to consider applying the finish e.g. Penofil before plugging.
Thanks, those are good suggestions. So far I haven't really rec'd 1 positive comment on the EB/TY system so I beginning to look at the standard method.
we used a GRK trim head screw... takes a #10 torx bit.. very small head.. set flushMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, in an early response in the thread one of the guys has a hyperlink to an instruction sheet on working with Ipe. One of the fastening suggestions was a pneumatic application. From a speed standpoint, it sounds intriguing. do you or anyone else have any knowledge about it? Bill
nail guns ?..... absolutely not.... just take a sample piece and try shooting SS. nails into it... ain't gonna happen.. not on a consistent basis..
also... you do want to exactly line up your fasteners for appearance sake.... a nail gun is not going to allow the alignment you'll want..
face it .. this material costs more in labor Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When the clients not concerned with cost - neither am I. But I do have to get my arms around this job and get up to speed fast on working with this material. You may or may not be interested in reviewing the reference further back in the thread re: pneumatic fasteners. It around thread #20 or so.
i think you're talking about mongo's post.. and they talked about "t-nails".....
hrrrrmmmppphhhhh...
no...... way .....!
using gun nails on an Ipe' deck is just not going to cut it.... but if you want to try .. i'd love to be proven wrong..
think about it... you carefully line up the gun nose.. you pull the trigger.. the nail goes in about 1/4" proud...... the next one.. comes out askew and rolls over and makes a circular indentation...
the third one goes in perfectly... but it's off you nail line by 3/8 of an inch...
how we doin so far ?
if you are going to face fasten.. everything has to be in perfect alignment.. or you won't like it....if you want to screw and bung... ok.. you can get a little off line...
the eb-tys and the PL glue as a bedding surface ? sounds like a messMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike - Is that Azek trim in the first photo? Bill.
Beautiful work, Mike. I'm now inspired to craft my deck into something a bit more elegant than originally planned. Question: did you chamfer the ends and edges of the boards? Looks like it in the photos. If yes, how (the ends, mainly)? Thanks.
Oh, one other question: what saw blade do you (or others) suggest?
i used a round over bit to champher mine - on the herring bone, i did each board individually, on the edge of the deck, I did them all at once before installing the breadboard end. I set the depth so the champher on the end exactly matched the edge detail on the boards (which were rounded over already)
For cuts, I just got a nice new carbide blade for my circular saw and cut them free hand (using my square as a straight edge). No problem.
Bill.
bill... not Azek... that's Koma, a similar product
lofton... no we didn't chamfer... we cut everything on our 705 DW chop saw.. which i think has a 40 tooth carbide...
here's some more from that job...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you, Mike, for solving a screen problem I've been fighting with for my deck. I really like your arbor and lattice approach!
Like Mike, I don't use t-nails. I was told by someone who used to use them that they just didn't perform well on 5/4 and thicker stock, and even when he used them on 1-by-4s, they'd tend to loosen over the period of a few years. They stay tight in the deck boards, they eventually loosen from the framing.
Eb-Ty is a very nice system, but again, I think it works better with softer woods, and again, that's all related to wood movement.
For ipe, I honestly think the best bet for installation is to face screw, and the best looking is to plug the screw holes.
They did that on TOH on the house that they built for Tom's Brother (Billerica). Heree is what the show description has.
"Tom Silva shows us the first of the porch decks: he's using ipe, a Brazilian hardwood, and giving it a clean look by fastening it down using only a marine adhesive and an absolute minimum of stainless steel trim nails."
I guess they're just trying to stay within the parameters of the title of the show, This Old House, meaning they want to re-create a loose, uneven, and squeeky porch.<g>
If money doesn't matter and looks do, go with 5/4/6" ipe eb-tye'd down.
I did 1000 sq ' with multileveled, cantilevered curved decking, juliet lookout,two curved staircases, tempered glass railing set in ipe. A year and a half later it
hasn't moved a bit. The 5/4 material was used for both the shadow lines
and to hide the eb-tys. bty it takes a bit of time. working alone, I did about
80 sq' a day had to let the helper go, just coudn't get the system down right.
My favorite decking material other than 2by 6 pt. "mahg" is the last one
one the list. I'm in S.W. CT
Thank you. This job is in Central NJ so the climates are identical. As you can see for yourself, the reviews on face screwing vs. EB/TY are mixed. I'd really like to run with it though - and feel confident about it. I'm 20 min. from Danbury in Westchester County. Mind if I ask what town/city the job your referred to is in? You could shoot me an e-mail at [email protected].
Daycon, I'd really like to see some pics of that curved ipe deck !
my 2 cents I'm with Lateapex eb/ty very fine way to go! With that NJ sun I would think an eb/ty every 24" wood be more than enough ** even if you opt for eb/ty you will inevitably use face screws / and those plugged are exquisite and Mr Bill W's photos show those small headed SS screws just about disappear / and it is so stable i would try one screw every 24" ( or 28" ) centered joist ** a complete surprise to me has been how easy it is to sand w/ few if any repercussions ( plugs etc )
both 1 X and 5/4 materials are excellent think I've seen one knotish looking blemish in the 2500 odd sq ft material I've installed
designs I would promote considering material are the breadboard framing and lap joints so well displayed in Bill W's photos - this is nothing to take away from Mike Smith's and Daycons beautiful miters Do They stay TIGHT? My results have left much to be desired. The last two decks I've incorporated breadboard framing and miters ( I'm going to verify whether what I'm using is kiln dried - I think so anyway left my picture framing material in beautiful sunny weather good two weeks even mitering corners 3/8s proud to dry where it counts before finish cuts and installation - biscuits,glued and multiple screws to no avail
Sphere loved your coating your boots / I had done the same thing to one of my son's soccer balls - initially a wee bit "heavy" but now couldn't be finer and beads up like a turtle waxed baby's bottom
salud all John
john ... i'll go back and look at the miters...
i had designed lap-joints for all of the corners .. which is why the framing was so wide ( we used a diagonal 4x6 under each corner )... but the architect insisted on a miter...
luckily it is only a half miter with the 4/4 x 4 dividing each miter so any movement will disappear... it also allowed us to fool the eye on exact alignment by sepearating the mitersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike - It's kinda funny, because I was going to do miters (I thought the herring bone would be beyond my skill level), but my architect insisted on the herring bone. Turned out to be simple - probably easier than the miter.
John - Thanks for the comments on my work. I just went over and took a fresh close up picture - it has held up well through the winter (installed in Dec) - notice how the nail holes almost disappear.
In the interest of full disclosure, I notice one board (out of 600 sq ft) that has warped upward (2nd photo, the board in the center of the shot). Because I was framing around a rounded bay, I ended up with an area where the Ipe cantilevers about 6-8" .... live and learn ... the stuff needs to be held down right to the end I guess. This isn't a matter of screw vs Ebty other than to point out that it better be well secured or it will move.
Bill.
When the snow goes away I'll try to get some pics
OK, well here is your first positive Eb Ty comment: The result is great. I did an almost 1000 sq ft deck in mahogony with them this summer, and it looks great.
I do wish the spacer was just a bit stronger....1/32" or 1/16th. And the labor is tedious. But I feel good about the holding power, and the look can't be beat.
Perhaps they're only for the high end. Just be sure to account for the extra time.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
THANK YOU! The truth is that I really am eager to try the system out - but wouldn't do it if there was a unanimous no-confidence vote from the forum.
This client spares no expense and really appreciates new technologies that up the ante on the finished product so this can be regarded as a high-end. In fact, as of last night, they began inquiring about wrought-iron railings, so this project is going to get very pricey.
This deck should be coming in around 900 s.f.
Bill W,
I have a porch floor that I would like to replace this year with the same 1x4 look.
Is your floor a tongue and groove----or simply tightly joined 1x4?
mine is a covered porch as well-------but the joists etc. ,are not treated----and I have reservations about putting anything that isn't tongue and groove on them.
Uhhhh..I'd say that is in the awesome catagory..my work there was dictated by the HO who , along with his DW...helped.
Very cool work ya did there..
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thanks Sphere ... hey, tell me more about the 'big hammer and punch' to deal with the screws that strip out ... you just whack 'em? i have a few i can't get in or out, sticking up about 1/32 .... rough on bare feet ... thanks, Bill.
We also had a few that would waller out b4 going all the way..I have an old..(antique kinda) drift punch..about a 1/4'' flat nose..I set it on the trouble maker and whack it a good one with a 28oz hammer or a 2lb drilling hammer..no tap, tap, tap..I mean a Good whack..But NOT at a butt joint.it may split the wood..for those few, I drilled them out enough to be not above the decking..all went well.
The railing is another story..ha ha.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I don't even know where to start asking about the railing ... the one in your photo is gorgeous ... looks like you've mixed wood and steel balusters ... I haven't figured out what I'm doing for a railing yet .. hoping I can see a lot of synthetics at JLC live in providence next week before i decide ... she wants white, so I'm not considering Ipe for the railings.
Anodized alum. spindles alternated with 2x2 IPE..bottom rail has two borings one for the alum. OD and a drain hole too..the top has a sub-rail dadoed for the 2x2 and then a 2x4 ..both drilled to 13/16 for the alum...on the stair rails the hole were drilled at the angle, Elmer Fudd style.." Vweeewwwy, Vweewwy..cafawweeey..luckily I had the perfect drill bit and the HO had a Shopsmith on site..the bit was a 13/16 hybred forstner/multispur..so it would not walk doing the 34* angle..and being as the Shopsmith did not tilt the way we needed..we had to cobble up a angled table to support the rail parts..which BTW..cost more than ALL of the decking..4x4 8' were somethin like 125.00 ea/..and the 5/4 x6 x 10' with the edge moulded was 2 bills ea. IIRC..( I did not buy it, he did)..
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Holy CRAP ... sounds like a nightmare, but the result is amazing. I've had the same reaction on pricing, btw ... was so pleased at how reasonable the cost of my decking was, then stunned by the cost of railing materials. The original balusters were turned fir, which of course my wife wanted replaced exactly ... considered having them stripped and doing an epoxy repair (on all 300 of them) ... got quotes on getting them reproduced in cedar ... checked internet for similar pre-made ones .... have yet to find an option for less then $8 a piece, and that's unfinished ... she finally conceded that I could go with square x-sction instead of turned, so I think it opens up a lot more (cheaper) options ... haven't even looked into railings yet, but the original is milled from 4x4 stock ...
I'll be back with a million questions on this topic as soon as it percolates to the top of my to-do list ... right now focused on the lattice skirt (or lettuce, as you call it).
Bill.
Help. DW? Knowing the enemy is the first step towards winning the battle...
once you figure out the material end.. think about this... ipe' labor is almost double anything else.. and i wouldn't butt any exterior decking .. space it with a minmum of 8d common nail... butting it will only catch debris and moisture
the eb-ty will add additional labor to the above..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with Mike that the boards should not be butted (ie, not tongue and groove) - mine has a 1/16" space - maybe a little tight, but I figured it would shrink a little and be fine - so far, so good.
For the untreated joists, maybe you can run strips of tarpaper (or some other flashing material) along the tops before you put down the decking to increase their lifespan? I've never tried it, but on the porch I just ripped out, they had done that in some sections, and it seemed effective.
Here's my EbTy theory, with emphasis on theory - I've never used them:
While the EBTY does create a space between the boards, the space is occupied by the hard plastic EBTY - to me, that sounds like it's the same as tightly butting the boards together without an EBTY - if the wood expands, something has to give. I've read about deck boards lifting up with this system.
On the other hand, if the wood contracts very much, it may pop out of the EBTYs all together (this is the problem I was more worried about, and gets worse with wider boards.) - I've also read about this happening.
The manufacturer recommends a bead of construction adhesive along the joists, but acknowledges that the glue is not really there to prevent wood movement, but rather, to provide a smooth bed for the boards to keep the EBTY clips in alignment with the grooves in the board. I doubt it has much hold-down power.
All of this effort, cost and risk to avoid surface holes - a good objective, but not worth the trouble IMHO. As I mentioned, the screw heads nearly disappeared, and can be filled if they really bother you.
Just my 2 cents ... Bill.
Bill, nice porch ... question about your board spacing. When the weather improves I'm doing porch and deck with ipe 1x4 face screwed. I want minimum gap yet still shed water and breathe from underneath. I've read everything from 1/16 to 1/4 inch. My wood has air dried few months at 60deg. Comments?
I used 1/16, pretty much against the advice of most experts (I am NOT an expert). My thinking was that it might seasonally expand and close the gaps, but the long term trend would be shrinkage. Mike Smith makes a good point about trapping debris - even if the gap stays at 1/16, you could accumulate junk in there and have a problem. Since it's my own house, I can keep an eye on that - if I was building for someone else, I might not take that risk. So bottom line, 1/8" or bigger is the safe bet, less than that at your own risk. I love the look of the 1/16 gap though, so I'm glad I did it - got through a very wet winter with no problem. Bill.
From one of my "local" lumberyards: fairly good guidlines for installing ipe...
http://mataverdedecking.com/images/files/Installation%20Guidelines/MataverdeInstallationGuidelines.pdf
we buy our Ipe' from Liberty Cedar .. they went to KD Ipe' last year.. so shrinkage is not a factor
as to spacing.... our last customer insisted on a 6d nail space.. we recommended an 8d space.. the closer the spacing the longer the drying time, and the more debris will accumulate..
but another thing is the margin variation is more apparent with the smaller space.. and you have less to wrok with if you are trying to cheat a layout for equal boardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This is a terrific summary on working with this wood for those of us that haven't fought with it as yet. Thanks for the input.
Here's another site that has lots of help for using ipe:
http://www.homeressources.com/forum/list.php?f=7