Well i have a Lic to contract in Calif. and i dont even contract!, Im studying to get one in Oregon too, Why?? cause you cant work without it! it doesnt mean you cant do the work! it is sick when you have to be an attorney for everything you do.
many states have no Lic. requirements, Mt, Wa, and more 13 in all. Liabilty ins. and a bond and your done. Go to work .
Replies
What's your point?
I'm a GC in Oregon, and while one can question whether a license qualifies one to do construction work, it does give HO's and other licensed contractors some leverage and protection against the hacks and fly-by-nighters.
And I think you need to do a little research on state license requirements. Washington certainly does require one.
And whether a state requires a license or not, customers seeking construction loans may have to declare the documentation of their contractor for their lender.
Maybe it sucks, but don't blame the system; blame the scumbags and incompetent hacks and rip-off artists that have made all this necessary in an effort to protect the earnest and honest and capable.
Ohio doesn't have one, BUT different cities/counties have their own, and to work there you need to file your bond papers/workers comp certif. and pass the test. I have 2 such cities in my county.
WE DON"T NEED NO MORE STINKIN' GOVERNMENT!
Actually I think that almost 1/2 of the states don't have contractors license requires. But that includes some that only has them for government work, others for commercial, and others one for jobs over XXX. Where $xxx can be as low as $5,000 and as high as $50,000.
I've been through this before here. I DO believe in licensing for the simple reason that any Joe Shmoe out of work can put on the side of his truck a sign that says "CONTRACTOR", and know absolutely nothing. Painted a few houses and maybe put a window in. The homeowner has no idea the worthiness of the "contractor". Not saying that because one has a license that the HO will get the job done right but at least they will know the contractor has insurance {required in most states if not all). Also has the opportunity to look up the past biz practices of the alleged contractor. References alone are almost worthless as I know far too many "handymen" that hand out friends and family member names as references. The down side of being lichened is one has to PAY MONEY. That basically was the objection I received when I posted a thread on this subject a year or so ago.
BE well
Namaste'
andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
So, a license adds to your cost of doing business, but it does little or nothing to stop people from hiring the unlicensed ones from working under the table or behind the bush. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
Not sure what your point is. My point was that people that DO care, can find contractors that care at least enough to get licensed for what ever thats worth. In states that require licensing a HO would have to be a total lunatic to hire someone that cares less about the laws of their state = penny pincher = ready to get ripped off and or scammed IMHO.
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Wrong on that bud. I travel all over and hear folks always telling me about the good deal they got from this guy or that guy.
That 8x10 piece of paper does not mean anyone is qualified or reputable or experienced or does quality work. It only means that they can pass a test.
I'd be willing to bet that there is as high a percentage of licensed contractors screwing customers as there is of unlicensed one man pickup truck toolbox dudes doing it to them.
The thing that might help increase standards might be more uniform codes and enough educated codes officers who do their jobs properly.
Professionally, I see too many screwups - we've had a couple threads here on the subject of Ooopsies - that shouldn't happen. Our industry is becoming increasingly complicated. (Molds, moisture, new materials and green buildings, asbestos and lead, insurance, yada yada yada) Continuing education is done now on a voluntary basis but it would probably do more good than licensing. I just don't see licensing as solving any problems.
From a more personal basis, I am one hundred percent against licensing, being of a libertarian mind. Look at the founding documents. Our constitution prohibits licensing. That has been forgotten and perverted over the years to allow it. The reason our forefathers prohibited it was because of the history of the crown issuing licenses (for a "gift" of course) and jailing or fining those who worked in certain crafts or trades without one. It had more to do with protection than with improving quality. It proceeded from the old trade unions in medivel Europe but progressed to a totally corrupt system of controlling power. So we established the right for any individual person to enter into and to break contractual arrangments with any other individual.
Part of the way that licensing came back into being here is an example from the medical field. Doctors formed into associations for sharing information and education. Eventually they began to certify one another. With the passage of time and in some attempt to weed out quacks and protect the public from snake oil salesmen, these certifications grew in authority. A customer could see from the certificate that his doctor was certified in a certain field and feel comfortable that he was recieving quality care, by the standards of the age. But it was still a self policed field. Power draves power tho and it wasn't long before those who held leadeership positions in these medical boards petitioned the govt for sanctioning to protect members of their craft and not to protect the public. Now, a person who gives good medical advice (you've read some here on this forum and may have even given such good advice) can be jailed for practicing medicine without a license.
Is that where you want to go with contractor licensing? Because the only way a law can be effective is to make it enforcable.
I think that educating consumers and builders and holding high standards is much more effective than creating a police state.
Look at your own background, in rebelling against the education system, with it's state sponsored seal of approval and licensed teachers. How much energy did you expend in your school to satisfy the state that could have been spent in real teaching and learning? See any parralleells here?
I may be playing the extreme and devil's advocate here a little bit but I sense a good debate coming up.
{rubs paws in anticipation}
.
Excellence is its own reward!
I missed the part of the constitution that prohibits licenising. Do you have the citation for that?
Sorry I was slow getting back to you, Dunc. I was reviewing the constitution.
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html
There are provisions regarding equal treatment and protection of property rights but not the wording I remember.
Maybe it was in the Declaration of independence where they ennumberated grievances against King George.
Or maybe it was some of the other writings of the timne inciting people to revolt because George used licenses as part of his total control of the economy here - he could stop professionals from earning a living by withdrawing their license to work.
On this subject - there are many kinds of license, not just those issued by govt. For instance, when you install software on your computer, you have not bought a program, only the license to use the prograam under the authority of the developers or marketers, right? When installing it we click off an agreement to abide by the terms that...(anybody here ever actually read and understand all that stuff)
The ownership is retained by the company.
So, is anybody using pirated software - that is working it wiothout a license? How does that parrallel compare to our issue here?.
Excellence is its own reward!
go ahead, get rid of the liscenses, what are you gonna offer as proof that your qualified? your word? yeah , right.listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
I hate to come in conflict with youall but I have worked for the last ten years without a contractors liscence I let the homeowners pull their permit and I work for cost plus I have insurance which I have never used and my word is my bond and it hasn't failed me yet. I have never written a contract and my reputation is my only form of advertising and currently I have about two years of work scheduled why do I want or need a liscence.
ANDYSZ2
I don't know what exactly what you do but it sounds like you have your own little niche and mayb a one man show with a few regular customers and your driven to uphold a good reputation to keep the wheel turning. That's probably why you don't want/need one, as long as your customer's are getting the permits like you say, you are doing the work with them, not for them. I was questioning piffins plan to unravel the system already put in place for the good of the public, you wouldn't want an unliscesed school bus driver taking your kids to school? would you?listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
I don't have a plan to unravvel anything.
What I would like is for people to understand that there are other ways to assure quality and standards without invoking a police state.
I won't try to take licenses aaway from bus drivers, for instances. Why waste effort tring to turn back the clock? As it moves forward though I think we should look for the best way of doing something. I can laugh out loud right now, knowing a school bus driver who is by no means a safe driver, but who has the job because this is the only person willing to work for the ridiculously low wages the system is willing to pay for that service. There is no competition for that job. Increasing the money paid will increase the number of people available to choose from. That competition wouldraise the bar. The license makes none of them a safe driver, in and of itself!.
Excellence is its own reward!
this "police state" your making it sound military. Police= protect the innocent, hey, that's the way it is, I see a dog being walked down the street by it's owner, I know you need a dog liscense, to get that, the dog needs shots, etc. Why make grandma hubbard track down all your referances when all she needs to know is that your work is going to be checked by a building inspector(policeman). HELL, you probably pay these references for a "glowing report".listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Having a license does absolutely nothing to assure Granny that her work will be inspected or that the inspector will not be on the take any more than an unscrupulous contractor is in the job. That's my whole point. If Granny is too lazy or unknowledgeable to protect her self and her famnily can't or won't get involved, how do you expect that the govt will do a better job of taking care.
The Govt takes care of nothing with out first taking something. Kind of a protection racket.
Police state is the extreme phrase because when you pass any law, it is an unworkable inequitable law unless it is enforceable. The ultimate way a law is enforced is by the cop with a gun. We just had the thread about granny who got hauled off to jail for building her porch without a permit.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/6/2002 5:51:33 PM ET by piffin
Piffin
I'm so there with you bro. I seriously dont want a license for anything,,,,,,,driving,,,,handguns,,,,,marriage,,,,,,,I only want licensing for lawyers and comics. Lawyers to uphold the law for funny jokes that I wanna shoot down!
Be well.......nahhhhh......f that shid
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Don't you think that this license business is like a "seal of approval". Assurance to the consumer that, it's more favorable that a quality job will be done in a ,like ,timely manner? HEY, I just had an idea, hehehe,...lets grade 'em like meat, contractor tries to sell job, touts "excellense"(sound familiar?), finally, pulls down pants, shows granny grade stamp on behind. (PRIME....CHOICE.....GOOD) LOL LOLlistening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Bend over so we can see yours... LOL
How about we have the govt agency that does the licensing take care of fixing anything the licecnsed guy does wrong?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Do you have a completion clause to protect the HO if you croak in the middle of a concrete pour? Or a bond?
Just exactly how are you going to complete the job if you croak.
ANDYSZ2
That was my point. However, if one croaks on the job, I guess the croaker no longer really gives a rip about licenses and bonds and contracts and responsibilities of any kind.
The Croakee, however, may hold a different view.
It's cheap here in SC. $50 for specialty. Any pay over $200 and your in violation here. You are also limited to $5000k unless you get a bond for the job to cover it.
"what are you gonna offer as proof that your qualified? your word? yeah , right"
Yeah!
That's Right
and my reputation to back it!.
Excellence is its own reward!
what are you gonna offer as proof that your qualified?
...... the work you've left behind you............
"maam", "I expect you to keep this place clean and orderly, because I'll be bringing potential customers through here, don't worry about leaving a key, I have one,I put in the locks, didn't I?, OH yeah, don't even think of selling this place............"listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Doesn't sound like my jobs or the folks I work with around here.......mind you, this ain't the big city and we all got traceable track records and come by referral. Would you hire someone without that?
we're in the city, not really inside, but pretty close in, and construction/remodeling is pretty competitive, if you have an edge(gee, a license, maybe?)that's better for you, yeah, I see turkeys(clients) walking through jobs in progress, maybe there's some that love to show the place after it's finished, most want it done and shoo us out. The typical sales pitch goes like...".let me introduce the 'Team', that will be invoved with your project.....you know_____, your architect, here'es _______, your project manager, he'll be running the job, here's _______, one of our estimators, to help with any changes, and here's__________, your lead carpenter. Of course, once the job is bagged, there's no more "team", they just go running off indifferant directions, chasing more work, summer vacations to france, a cross country trip to pozzi window factory,etc. etc., and throw the whole package at the lead guy. listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Around here you must pass a test, designed to show that you know the rules; carry insurance, to cover your mistakes and have the job inspected to show minimum standards were upheld to maintain a license. If you fail to meet the standards permits are denied until the inspectors certify adequate completion. Mess up enough and the board can yank your license. Work without one and you are looking at a fine. Work without one a second time or after yours was pulled and you are libel to do time in the big house.Laws or rules demanding licensing can't stop all unlicensed or unqualified contractors but it does control the numbers and has stopped the most egregious violations.
Long ago most people worker with their hands, had close neighbors or relatives in building trades and most houses were built, overbuilt in spots and inadequately built in others, using rules of thumb developed over generations of carpenters. Many trades were controlled by rigid guild systems with a violently enforced apprentice, journeyman, master hierarchy. These organizations jealously guarded their methods, secrets and territories with violence and terror that makes 20th century unions look cute.
Materials were more limited in number and selection. If you wanted to build a house you mostly used the materials at hand or paid a premium to import them. All aspects of houses and have become more complicated and demanding. While a builder in the 1800s might adequately master all the skills needed to construct a house now it is rare to find one who truly knows more than one, sometimes not even one, trade. Those that do know more than one usually only know about a narrow area such as single-family homes under three stories.
The standards, requirements and codes pertaining to residential, commercial, health care and industrial buildings is similar, for very good reasons, only on the most basic points. My trade is electricity and though I do work on commercial and some industrial sites I would have to study to become comfortable on a really large industrial job. The electrical field is just too wide for anyone to maintain up to date skills and knowledge in all areas. I suspect the same is true of most other trades.
A HO should not need to be a structural engineer to get a house that won't fall down when the front door gets slammed. They should not need to be an electrical engineer to have an electrical system that won't burn the place down when they plug in the toaster. I would like to think that a relative of mine could build a home anywhere in the US with a reasonable expectation of having it safely built to a reasonable minimum standard without having to fly me in to oversee the job. As if I could catch all the potential problems.
Licensing and inspectors are a step toward making sure that minimum safe standards are met. They are not perfect solutions. They are just one step. Licensing and codes inspections should be centralized, reasonably priced and as streamlined as possible. Unfortunately many of the same people making the loudest noises, excluding all posters here, not only ignore minimum standards but do everything possible to make an inspectors job hard. Many inspectors return the favor in kind. Imperfect tool on both sides but still very human that.
Agree. I wish the system were free of mistakes with in the system , but over all its trying to serve its purpose. You speak of overlaying trade knowledge to carry to one stage of the feild to the next , if you will. I know that there is a residental electric lisense. Is there also a different one for industrial, over commercial? I can see where there may need to be , but other areas I cant , such as a painter for example , although the painting is different , it still has the same technigues and principals . I would also say a finish trim carp, drywaller , floor installer , concrete finisher are all reasonalbly in their feild.
Tim Mooney
While there is a residential only license available in some areas, supposedly less demanding, in this area both the journeyman and master are general, encompassing commercial and industrial, with only fire alarm being segregated. This is only relevant to the electrical trade.
I may be playing the extreme and devil's advocate here a little bit but I sense a good debate coming up. {rubs paws in anticipation}
You have got one if you want it . Your on my friend .
The reason I left contracting in the early years was because it wasnt highly profitable. Until the lisesening became law , you could get a teacher to build your house in the summer at what ever small rate of pay he wished to charge because he had a 12 month salary comming to him from the school system. In my state he better get with the program before he lets out to build a house in these days and times. He will need to be licensed , bonded , and insured. He will also be registrared with the state to have a workmans compensation. All of these things are what the public wants and they are of benifit . It has become law. Laws are passed on a popular vote .
The trouble with debating with you, is you are right with what you say . But , what you are stating is history , not the present law, which neither of us can change. Will a licensed person be better ? No way to know , because its a broad statement. Its certainly your right to be against it , but we have to live in Rome with the cards weve been dealt. Which brings me to your response to me .
Respecting people over money . You are right again in what you said , but you are pretty short in point. I will however lengthen it since since your response was noted as a call out to me.
Until licenseing became law carpenters built houses for mere wages , and low wages at that. Yes a carpenter couldnt afford to buy his wife a new car and pay cash for it ,and do it every year, but other "professionals " were doing it . For the most part capenters were the ones living in the older part of town in fixxer uppers. They would drive an old truck and work with worn out tools because they were not "professionals " . But of course we worked for teachers that were professionals that had four years of training , a certificate , and yes a license . Of course you can think of many more "professionals " that you have worked for that had a license to practice something, that payed you enough to work there . However true your story is , I hate the sound I get you from you , as I read your writing. Contactors are actually living" amongest those professionals" in these days and Im proud that we are no longer considered "low class". Money is what is has taken and licenses have helped to bring us to a professional level . Im really disapointed with your response.
Tim Mooney
When I'm looking for a contractor to hire, I look at two things. One is quality of work (usually from a referral from someone else in the industry who I trust), and the other is legitimate business practices.
The latter is where the license comes in for me - I look them up on the State Contrator's License board internet site to see how long they have been licensed, if their insurance is current and if there have been complaints filed against them in the past. It's kind of like the feedback rating on Ebay - past clients have a way to make public any legal actions taken against a contractor in the past. It's not a perfect system, but it's one way to help keep the industry free of scam artists.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Piff...sorry bud yourself....but....if you read my response I also said that I also agree that licensing doesn't mean one will get a reputable contractor, BUT it helps to know that one is willing to come closer to standards. You think we should have licenses for driving? Where does it stop or stop brother? Thing is..its not about a license to screw but rather a stupid piece of 8x10 that a HO might follow to see if theres any judgements against them in the field. I NEVER thought that a license would make a builder a builder cause after all the test in my state is only about contracts, not building. At least its something a consumer can look back on. Maybe its like the IRS looking to see if we're reputable citizens paying our taxes through SS #'s....I donna...you pretty much know my standards Piff and govt in so many ways bothers me but in so many ways I DO get it. Theres a fine line tween hangin a sign on ones truck and willing to jump through a few hoops to be part of the system. The "system" isnt a big part of what I love as you know but IN our system we seem to need a way to sort through folks willing to deal with one another, If you have a better plan then please pass it on. I DO hear what youre saying and I agree in so many ways.....its just that I dont have the time to fix everything other then peoples homes....I kind of do think there needs to be some regulations to keep the clueless safe. Not saying that licenses will, but sure cant hurt...Like I said....why do we need one to drive out cars and for that matter if ya wanna get into it..the stupiedest F'in license is the one to marry,,,,Who does that benefit,,,,,duh!
BE well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
LOL
I never did understand that one, didn't even have to pass a test or put up a bond before marriage.
See my post above for positive suggestions.
Maybe this is less about you guys that already fall under the burdemn of licensing and more about those of us who work in states with no licensing - where to go from here..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm with you on not requiring licensing - how about, just applying the old Hamarabi's code. Hamarabi's code states that if you build a house for a family and it fall's down and kills some one, the builder is hauled out in the street and publicly stoned to death. That law may be why so many of the buildings in the middle east are 500 to a 1000 years old or more and their still standing. Nah; it would never fly in this country - there'd be 1000's of stonings a year. I think we'll just stick with the licensing for now, at least there's less of a mess.
I think its a move to betterment of the future to people in trades . Plumbers, electricians , heat and air , have demanded a higher living because of licenseing. I guess my point is making lemonade out of lemons. Once liceseing has been in force for a while , we will be better respected by other professions because of the size of the checks we will recieve. People have had been making point to jokes about plumbers for a long time recieveing so much money for such little work. The one about the doctor that became a plumber for one because of pay. I dont like goverment control any more than anyone here , but licenseing can be looked at to a positive for us being respected in the future.
One more thing to note here. The heat and air supply houses will not sell to anyone but a licesend contrator . This is wild for me to comprehend . But what if lumber yards followed suit ? That will never happen in my lifetime , but look at how much leverage they have obtained.
Tim Mooney
So there are people who will respect me more if I make more money???????
I hadn't thought about that. It really never occoured to me. I guess there are people who decide things like that based on income level.
They're not the kind of people I ever wanted to impress tho'.
Excellence is its own reward!
I live in a county in Ohio that had a building code, license requirement and then it was voted out by the public. Last week I put a new breaker panel in a home that had a new service installed during the code/license period. It had been inspected and approved by the then county/city hired inspectors. I would not have wanted my lawn shed wired in the manner this was done. Crappy work, all approved by the powers to be of the time. I think a code/license requirement only serves to make the community feel better, add to the cost of doing business, gives the customer one more place to lay blame on poor work that was probably the lowest bid. DanT
Sorry to all about the two posts as I re wrote after the first . Sould have edited it . Now , Im sounding like someone else . Im deleteing the first even though some have read it.
Tim Mooney
T
I'll probably have to break this all dow to a few different responces to get it all in. I've just installed a new laser scrolling mouse and the system is gettting flaky on me.
First off, I like you Tim, and have the utmost respect for you and your opinions, as for most other members here. so I'm hoping we can debate an issue without bad feelings when it's all done. If I lived in a state with licensing requirements, I would probably work within that culture just as well as I do now in one without licensing. I see it as a matter of principle and recognize that we have to have sold off some of our rights won in the revolution in order to purchase what some consider a measure of security. You hint that you agree with that in principle. How important that principle is, versus how important protecting our domain and profits are is a question we must ask ourselves.
I ask myself too. I don't mean it to sound that I am slamming you. We all have to come to the understanding and reconcilliation that serves us. That is, in my mind, the purpose of debate - to explore the issue and lay bare the facts and theories that apply.
I do, however disagree that the thing that has won professional respect is the money that we are able to earn. You individually, and your peers in general, in your state have made progress in terms of income and knowledge and respect. I don't believe that any of these are entirely separate from the other. Having seen the same progress towards repect and to higher standards and higher incomes for builders in other states without licensing, I have come to the conclusion that it is the acquisition of knowledge and the raising of standards on an individual basis prompted by peers and the marketplace that has raised incomes and respect as much as the govt imposition of licensing to attain the same end. You speak from your experience in a state which has gone through it. I speak from my experience in states without licensing that have seen the same ends meet without resorting to that tool. A common element to all these states is the increase of knowledge and experience and the communication both enjoy through mediums such as this venue and FHB magazine, amoung others.
I would suggest that the better method is in relying on individual institutions, individuals' incentive, and professional trade organizations to make greater training and certification available, outside the venue of govt.
What incentive is there? you might ask, for an individual to persue such advancement? Several;
peer pressure and modeling
competition in the marketplace
profit in percieved value.
If govt incentive is desireable, then uniform adhereance to building codes and inspections can provide it. Further, installation of universal codes would require that all persons building - including those who can and do slip through the cracks of any licensing sceme, DIYs HOs and their cousins, Travelors, laid off union workers, summer students and teachers) will be required to build a structure that is safe, sound and standardized. Currently, much of the country has no building code enforcement in addition to no licensing. When I search my memory for bad homes, I find that by far, the ones most poorly built would have still been built in that manner had licensing been required of contractors. Licenses, in short, would have done nothing to prevent bad buildings or make life safer for occupants/owners. Application of building codes would have. The code becomes the standard.
I have seen numberous cases of "licensed" contractors doing poor work when I lived in states where licensing was required and can't think of how the license applied any incentive to quality. Licensed archjitects fail in their purpose as well. Licensed doctors somtimes find themselves inept in the face of circumstances or worse.
I may be a unique case, but I believe that in pursuit of excellence, I discover great satisfaction from improving the quality of my product and in turn, command higher and higher prices and respect. I now serve many of the same clients once using the company I once worked for eleven years ago that went out of business. That simple turnaround in local builder's demagraphics serves to me as an example of how the markeetplace serves to raise quality standards without the imposition of govt controls.
Excellence is its own reward!
I read your last post three times to make sure of where you stand. I still have no argument . I also dont just hint I believe in your principals , because I do. Im not responsible for the law . Its true that I only have one state to speak about , and I know that truck drivers have joined the pay ranks amoung us. For after their many strikes, they too have gained some respect in the form of payment. I think Im speaking about different points than you are , because you have come back with the same points , which I already agree with , but I dont feel you have addressed where Im comming from. Maybe you have in what you said about betterment of our knowledge . Ive lived a long time and Ive seen these things change . You might be right in some of that as my experinece is limited to one geographical area. I will go on to agree with you in these statements ; I hold a residential license for the state of Arkansas . As you know Im also a past painting and drywall contractor. Im unlimited in price and quantity to residential. I do not hold a commercial license , and I cannot perform any work there said for an amount over 20,000. That said , its a joke to say Im not qualified to take a contract on a new school for example doing the drywall or painting. I can however be a super of any building. I cannot build a simple strip mall, but Im licensed to build the biggest home in Arkansas! I am also unlimited to build a hundred of them. I agree that there are many problems with our goverment . Im not trying to make it right saying they are correct . Im just saying that the licenses separate the type of contractors doing certain work. At least I know if I was going to bid , that it would be an equal playing feild for all. What about Lisa commenting as a home owner wanting to know about a contractors performance history , and his qaulifications? What if the contractor is not insured ? What about bonding ? The way I see it is that its in place because of the scums who have abused the system , and the people have voted it in . WE have had no control over it . I agree with you that we should bid the work we are qualified to do, but that doesnt mean that all the people doing the bidding are qualified. I can also agree with you there in people who obtain lisceses might not be up to par or speed, but we deal with a system here in this state that says we must be licensed in what we do. I also think we have gained respect in form of payment from the system no matter how wrong it is. Its still the law here , so make lemonade if you live in a system that demands it.
Tim Mooney
Now if you will pardon me , there is 17 new posts I havent read in diverse carrers at breaktime , and I just read them complete few hours ago. Im gonna have to learn to read and type faster ! LOL!
Tim Mooney
We'll really have to work at this to make a debate if we're gonna keep on agreeing.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
I see the licensing as more of a Money generator for the state/local government, and as a way for the IRS to be able to weave their magics.
Licensing doesnt make a person a saint, just tells me that youve paid the govt X amount of money and maybe passed a multiple choice test. It doesnt tell me that youre qualified. And if you see a license you shouldnt assume he/she is qualified. Im sure i could send someone $1000 dollars in some third world country that says im a lawyer. CPA, or doctor, and they'd send my a pretty certificate to hang on my wall, but that doesnt mean im qualified to do that work.
"Licensing doesnt make a person a saint"
True. But it can tell me if they are a criminal.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Here's a link to the California Contractors State License Board. For those interested in what licenses cover, require and cost here, you'll find all the information here.
http://www2.cslb.ca.gov/CSLB_LIBRARY/license+request.asp
Try typing in 743710 for the license number and you'll see an example of the benefit of licensing to the consumer. Don't know about you, but I'd sure want to know the details before I signed any contracts with them.
Here's another: 163941. I'd definitely make the call, as suggested.
"A completed home is a listed home."
' 23748.47 in reply to 23748.46
"Licensing doesnt make a person a saint"
True. But it can tell me if they are a criminal.'
No It Does Not!
There are a great many criminals in this world who have never been arrested or convicted. Not all convictions would show in certain kinds of records checks. Just look at the history of how often perverts and child abusers are able to find employment in schools and child care facilities.
Like you Lisa, so don't take this personal, but that's the whole trouble with trusting the govt to certify the safety of using a certain person or group of persons to perform a task. People then get in the habit of trusting the govt to do it for them and leave their brains turned off.
Different people have different qualifiers in their minds of what it takes to gain their trust. I remember one old guy way back when I first started doing jobs on my own. I measured and bid it, leaving him with the, "Take your time to think it over or get other prices..." but he immediately said, "Oh No! I wouldn't dream of that. You've got a nice big new truck out there. That means you can afford it. You couldn't afford no truck like that iffin you didn't get paid for doin' your jobs. That means you done satisfyed your customers"
But my license didn't mean a thing to him. Go figure.
}:-)
.
Excellence is its own reward!
So, piffin, did you look at the link I posted? Do you think that contractor would have volunteered that information to me? As I said before, the system isn't perfect. I'm sure there are contractors who rip people off and don't get caught. But that could be said of any law. Does that mean we should do away with all laws? I don't follow your reasoning.
The gentleman in your anecdote was a very trusting. Many criminals drive expensive cars that weren't bought with money from satisfied customers.
Maybe the natural barriers around your island residence keep your community tight enough that a handshake and a man's word can be held accountable? Unfortunately, where I live on the mainland that's not the case. :-(
"A completed home is a listed home."
I'd have to agree with Piffin on this, the license does not make the contractor, I worked for 10 years as a contractor,(licensed in Iowa, only need to pay a fee and be insured, here insurance was cheap) I was never asked for my license and when I offered it most people looked at it like it didn't mean much, probably because it doesn't. What the people wanted was my word that the job would be done right and some references and to see some of the work that I did. I know companies that seem to change names regularly and that makes me wonder what they are up to, name change and there is no background to check, not sure what there angle is but I'm sure something is going on. If all you do is check with the state licensing board then I think you would be just as prone to be ripped off. Lisa you referred to the E-bay method of checking up on a person to see if they are credible, no offence but if that's all you are doing then you could get burned, there are so many ways around the bad feedback system, just as there are ways to inflate the good feedback responses. Just my 33 cents worth.
Doug
and also to Piffin
Where did I say that checking with the license bureau was the only thing a consumer needs to do to qualify a contractor? Didn't say it. Didn't meant it. Also didn't say that the license makes the contractor, or that the license is a guarantee of skills. Only that it is one way to ascertain if he/she has a current bond, Workman's Comp. for employees, if there are legal or criminal judgements against them, if the state has seen fit to take away their license - stuff like that.
I think some homeowners don't ask for a license number because they feel like they they are calling the contractor's personal integrity into question if they do ask. If there is a problem with someone's personal integrity, I'd sure rather know before I contract with them than afterwards. I just ask with a smile and no one has ever run away crying. ;-)
Hey Doug - you should talk to Brian about that 33 cents. That's what us DIY'ers have to pay to post, but you should be getting the contractor rate. Didn't AndyE tell you that? I'm sure Brian will be glad to take care of it for you...
"A completed home is a listed home."
Lisa
"Hey Doug - you should talk to Brian about that 33 cents. That's what us DIY'ers have to pay to post, but you should be getting the contractor rate. Didn't AndyE tell you that? I'm sure Brian will be glad to take care of it for you..."
Not sure what you meant by this, probably something that went way over my head? Not a contractor anymore, just cabinet and finish work in someone else's shop now, easier on my mental well being!
Wasn't implying that you only did the search at the license bureau, just that I in my opinion, and that's based on what we have here in Iowa, that that was a wasted step. Still just my 33 cents worth though.
Doug
No worries about the 33 cents thing - I was just joking with you. Brian's the new moderator around here and I thought it might be fun if we started pestering him about how much Taunton charges us to post here. ;-)
"A completed home is a listed home."
" Many criminals drive expensive cars that weren't bought with money from satisfied customers."
That's my point, Lisa. Many licensed contractors rip people off too. The single thing he based his judgement on was no more valid than only basing it on the possesion of a license.
And that was in a large city in Florida, not this quaint island.
See, all of these things are tools. The Calif database is a good tool and you are wise to use it, I'll bet many don't. Yes, I looked at it and was impressed with it. I didn't see you second post containing it until after I had replied to your previous so my reply seemed out of context or incomplete to you, I'm sure.
But I hope you noticed the series of disclaimers at the top of the results page. That is the vague and imcomplete area I am refering to in any govt run system. I hope you do other work before making decisions such as checking references and/or looking at past work. BTW, who pays to maintain that website and keep it updated accuratly? How much does it cost you to have it available? I'm guessing that a portion comes from the licensing fee and another portion comes from either you property taxes or the permit fee. So essentially the govt is saying, "We are charging you X dollars to provide this information to you but *disclaimer* it might be worthless, inaccurate information. Sure, it's a help, but not a sole solution.
I'm sure the natural barriers here do keep a lot of vermin out as does the native culture. But I am not limited in my experience and observations to this one place. City and rural, licensing states and non-licensing, I still see little benefit to requireing licenses that could not be afforded to consumers without govt intervention.
I know you've got a good guy, so enjoy working with him and I hope you get your house back in order soon.
Cheeers!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Where are you going with this thinking ? Please put it out in a thread here so we can understand whats on your mind. It doesnt do any good to cut Lisa and I off at the pass kind of thing. Just put it out there so we know. Im interrested in your limits . Bus drivers were mentioned. Do you want the doctor your wife sees liscensed ? How about the appraisor that sets the price on your home ? Should he be policed in any way? Should you have any recourse with him, if he doesnt serve your interrests ? What if he sent your bank a copy that said your house was worth 10,000.00? Should you just pay him , and he not have to answer to superiors ? What about a realestate person ? Should they be policed for your intrrests? I know that you are attacking licenses, but I seriously wonder where you draw your boundries and why? This disagreement you have going has to be fair across the board to every one if you are going to set principals. You told us about the history and that was interresting , but lets here your plan laid out in full. Police officers? Teachers? Preachers ? How about a food establishment ? The way I understand it the license fees pay for the policeing . You have made your point about idenity of contractors , but please , lets move on . Yea , go ahead and rub your paws ,...LOL!
One more thing ; If I didnt think you and I had already proved we could take this in good spirit , I wouldnt be in this conversation.
Tim Mooney
Well Tim, My paws are getting really warm now.
;-)
Where to start...
Where am I going with this? I like to think. I consider it a good hobby. Sometimes my wife has no idea what I'm doing, staring off into space. I don't believe people think enough. Some never learned. Some just have too many distractions like TV.
Anyway, debating can help focus you in your thinking and refine or test your thoughts and arguements - which you are doing quite well with this lst post. I appreciate that. I still remember a long debate I once had here with Frenchy about the merits of homeschooling and the failurtes of public schooling. We were on totally opposite sides of a passionate issue, but held an intelligent discourse. He asked questions that i still return to mentally on occasion.
So maybe I have no goal here other than testinmg myself and my own thoughts. I have no expectations of winning. I'm just not competitive enough. For me, the glory of the race is in the running.
I pose these questions not to rally a revolution and change anything, but in hopes that somebody will put their thinking cap on.
Now on with it!
As far as I have experience or knowledge, most of the occupations you mention don't have licensing now. I almost get the impression you might want mothers to be licensed to give birth - maybe not a bad idea at that when I think about some of the mothers out there.
Let's take a few of them that probably do have licensing.
>>>>>Doctor - When we were shopping for doctors to treat my wife, we went looking for ones with a reputation for proficiency and good success records. We never once looked for a license. That may be an archaic point since one would assume that most practicing doctors do have a license - I mean when was the last time you checked out your physicians license out? Adjacent to this point, however, is the whole issue of 'alternative medicine'. Treatments that some consider quackery are provided by non-licensed persons for treatment of disease. Just fifteen years ago, the American Cancer Society pooh poohed the use of vitamins and eating large amts of vegetabels and fruits as having any value in preventing or treating cancer. Now, they've changed their tune.
One of her doctors told us about treatments that "...might be of some value. Certainly, there are some studies that indicate that some people have found..." But he couldn't directly recommend or prescribe such as he would jeopardize his "License"
Again, look back in history to see the number of times that newer, correct treatments and procedures were found in use only by those who had been ostracized by the licensed establishment.
Vacinations begun
Bloodletting ended
Germ theory proclaimed
but the licensing authorities of the day fought against these.
What about today?
Accupressure
Chiropractic
Herbal healing
What lies in the future? Will lives be lost by the licensing authorities delaying recognition of valid treatment?
>>>>>Lawyer - Maybe you didn't mention that profession but I will, only because I am curious about something that I don't know. Are barristers licensed by the govt? I know they need to pass a testy and sit in a peer review before being admitted to the Bar association in each state, but is that Bar under the authority of the State or is it a separate entity? I suspect the answer to this might take us far into deep water on this subject. If lawyers who exert such a great influence on our socieety are allowed to practice without a govt license....
>>>>>Real Estate Agents. Hmmm...I'm aware that you know more than I about this area for sure so I might get my head handed to me if I touch this one. Time for another anecdote. The agent here who sells more than any other has the worst reputation for honesty. has the most complaints filed against him. Was on probation once. I've got stories. Some of them are even true! ;-) But This is the guy who can find you the property you want. Right now, I'm aware of a bidding war going on for a property listed at about eight million. Both potential purchasers are equally matched. My money is on the one useing this particular agent in the negotiations. Is it the license that makes him good?
Cops teachers and preachers? Are they licensed in Arkansas too? Wow! What can you do there without a license?
Enough for now!.
Excellence is its own reward!
What is most interresting posting here has been brought to my attention in a post you started about diverse carreers in breaktime. That post has been a wake up call to me how much knowledge is here lurking. Even Stray, who posts on a regualar basis , [to my memory ] has never told us he is in rentals. [big shocker for me and my old mind] Even the ones who are common in print have had pasts that are surely interresting. Im humbled to write in front of such company. Its kinda like talking on national TV. Better pick my words carefully. For those thoughts we cannot say what is on our mind , but its a growing experience . Now ,...as you would say,..On with it !
If you ever get the chance to read my first book , there will be a quote in it . [Are you laughing yet ? LOL]
" Realestate adjusters control the price of the world "
For anyones information that cares to chew on this ;
They are creatures that work for bankers , not for YOU! You pay them of course , but their checks come in the mail regularly from banks, lending institutions. [Not from you in most cases] It is quite clear to them who they answer to , and must please. For their reccomendations , referrals, are most certainly bankers. To scratch the bankers the itch, they are needed to cover the bankers posterior. Prices come in low ! Of course , what other underlieing story would I have here.
Arkansas law on this subject states in short form that it is the appraisors opinion and only that. To sue one and win means this ; He will have to be 25 percent off his mark for you to win your case. The only way to prove it, is to sell said property in six months of the appraisel. Then , you are awarded his charge back to you! Nothing more. This man might as well have a license to hold a gun on our head . You think the bankers have had anything to do with the laws written here ? The phrase , "in cahoots", comes to my thinking! Same thought as comming out of Chunky Cheese; Im not real sure , but I think we got screwed on this deal! Of course folks these are my own opinions , but Im sure that you can "grasp "your own .
Piffin , my mind works on making better the bad situations we already have in force in our goverment . Fair for all comes to mind. I think the situation above is corrupt , but legal in our system . I dont make argue with your points , but it doesnt do a lot of good if there is not a plan to change it. Give me a plan that I can also agree with, because Im not going to sit here and "pick" with a friend .
Tim Mooney
FYI
just came across this at "that other site" (no, not quittin time)
http://www.alcosystems.com/StateLicensing.htmbobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Thanks for the site reference. I studied it . More yeaas than nass. I also noticed only one state listed plumbers , so I gather it isnt a complete listing. Another thing I got from it was the different requirements and different listed lisceses. Home improvement license , anything over 20,000, anything over 1,000. But , I also noticed that "every state" listed realestate and appraisers. I also thought it was weird that heat and air wasnt strongly regulated.
Thanks ,
Tim Mooney
Tim
That is not a very good list. As you mentioned only one state shows plumbers. And a quick glance did not show any electricians.
And those are the two trades that are most commonly licensed.
And the Kansas does not have any statewide licensing for contractors. And I don't believe that they have any for electricans or plumbers either. Now while the listing does not indicate that they do license it list the licensing office. Well if you check that it is only for alchol, tabaco and commerical drivers licensing.
And KY does license HVAC, but they don't show that.
I think that this is a better list, but it still has problems.
http://www.411contractor.com/licensing.htm
I counted 19 states that did not list any requirements for "general contractors on residential". But some that do have requirement appear to only need "registration" or a "business" license which is really meaningless.
This seems to be the most comprehensive and detailed list, but you can't scan it. You have to go state by state.
http://www.contractors-license.org/
Edited 10/8/2002 11:22:46 AM ET by Bill Hartmann
I also questioned the first site , but it was awful handy to look at. Too bad it isnt correct. I think I would move to Kansas City if I wasnt tied to rentals here. I dont know if you read all posts or not , but Im a little P O ed that I cant practice in all the trades Im trained in. I really have a probem with it . I didnt mention it but , legally , I cant even build my own four plex , or a three plex for that matter. Im only liscensed to build up to a duplex . Those I cant build are listed as commercial. Im mad about the painting and drywall thing also. To satisfy both of these problems I would need two additional lisences. A total of three. I suppose Im limited to trim too because I do that on a a large scale at times . I just did a church , where I did all the drywall, all the painting , and all the finish carpentry [ cabinets , trim , and doors] I worked three weeks just trimming the auditorim , with babistry included. I will not do that again ! I was looking over my shoulder the whole time. I did base my price on an hourly rate, but the job wasnt registrared with the state. whew! Im glad Im off of that one ! I should have been able to legally bid that job , as I feel Im qualified , and they must have because they waited on me. I would not have waited , I didnt agree with that at all. I would have subbed it all out. Problem was a sub couldnt touch it either. Ive rambled enough! Thanks for the sites and the response .
Tim Mooney
You don't want to move to KC, but maybe the general area.
While KC does not contractors licensing I have heard that from a friend of my that does tenent finishes and the like that codes department is a bear.
Each city adopts there own codes.
I beleive that there are some contractor licensing in some of the Johnsom Co, KS cities and that there are efforts for a county wide liscensing.
But outside the metro areas there are no codes at all either Kansas or MO.
You actually mentioned something of greater interrest for " I do it all remodelers " .
You said Kansas has no liceses at all. It I read it right . If a man could do it all he could save some really great bucks building. Mechanical subs eat a lot of the cost here . Really to be fair to all the trades , all make a pretty good lick. If you can keep anyone from making a lick , you can build with realestate brokers and compete. Before some one jumps on me from the mechanical field , you also could do the same thing yourself . We used to do it here in rural america. When it was time to rough it in before insulation , we did it . We built back then from the ground up totally. My father was a master plumber and I carried a city electrical license. Heat and air wasnt licensed. My other two brothers specialized in concrete and footings , and framing , respectfully. My father and I did the finish and the masonary . We finally split in four crews, with around 12 employees. I guess I was the one left with him since I was the baby brother. Any way , it built my father a small empire in a small town. Now you know what Im getting at . No profits to pay out . Also the lumber yard was born when we were up and running. Dad died , and we split up,... big mistake , but it took dad to be a mediator between us .
Tim Mooney
I'm sure that it wasn't complete because Maine electricians and plumbers need license. Tim, I looked a t the Ark license booklet linked thru this and found that the three items that let you be grandfathered into a license with out a test are no longer valid since the middle of 2001.
I'll have to postpone coming back to this discussion for awhile, mt wife is chomping at the bit to get the computer tonite. She goes to bed early tho..
Excellence is its own reward!
LOL, what makes them do that ? hahahaha
I thought about that after I told you , because thats how I got in. I grandfathered. I had the three houses in five years and a financial statement . Now its a test ,plus the financial, and the commercial contractors test is a lot of study , and a heck of a test . Most dont pass on their first trip. I dont guess I need any more irons in the fire , but Ive got a dropped lip that I cant do what Im trained to do. I used to do a lot of commercial. I have a good friend that didnt pass the test and he works out of state . This is really unfair .
Tim Mooney
OK back agin.
So now you're on my side of this arguement, eh? Not fair that they're keeping a qualified man from doing good work! Limit's the competition so pricces to that brand of consumer are higher. But that license is supposed to protect that consumer?
Hmmm.
You asked for concrete solutions to the dilemma. I knew somebody would, because that's the way we builders think. We need something we can hold in our hands, like a 2x4 to whack the politicians with. Now there's a forcefull solution.
LOL
Fact is that there probably isn't a way to put the feathers back in the pillow, But it is apparent from above lists and links, that several states still rely on the free market to regulate the quality of contractors. That, combined with trade associations would be my ideal choice if I were recreating the system. Contractors would still be free to join or not, but widely advertised recognition of quality training through such membership and certification would give consumers some measure of worthiness similar to that noe espoused by govt boards.
The libertarian model would rely heavily on the courts and suits to add force to such a system. Instead of adding difficulty to all with increased cost of govt, individuals are left to pursue their own justice in court. Public documentation of results is similar to what is publicized on California's site. Punitive damages levied on the perpetrator discourages wrongdoing and court costs are his to bear. The whole system would work effieciently and very inexpensively for society as a whole. The system as it now works is more like giving everybody antibiotics every day to try to prevent infection instead of dealing with it on an individual basis when and where it crops up.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting NY is one that has not state license except for abestos abaitment.
I think that one of the big problems in not with the politicans, but the people that don't want to do anything themselves. I am not talking about doing the work, but about taking responsiblity for their actions. In this case determining who are good contractors.
Look at the email thread. And I have run into this in other situation. People want a simple answer. They don't want to have to think or do any research.
I agreed from the start , I just wanted to deal with what I have here . I told Bill the rest of my story . At this time of your posting you probably didnt see it. I really dont think that there are many with my past training . [Im certainly not bragging] I grew up in the houseing trade and was lucky to have who I had for a father . I give him all credit, not me. I actually had no choice but to work and learn. I never had an option untill I was grown and I loved it by then, plus I liked the money at that young age.
My situation is probably not even the minority. I applied it the best way I could by the rentals , and remodeling , but it isnt the same . New home construction is risky business at best . You usually cannot make great money unless you offer a niche that doesnt have competition. For a breif moment there I entertained the thought of licenses being over turned here, while talking to you. That was what was on MY mind . The rentals have been the best thing Ive done and Im not sorry for that , for its a niche in my case. I just dont love it . I really love finish work of all kinds and lots of it .
Tim Mooney
I feel bad now
;)
"For a breif moment there I entertained the thought of licenses being over turned here, while talking to you. That was what was on MY mind ."
You make it sound like this whole time we'e been dating I was just a tease!
LOL and sorry..
Excellence is its own reward!
Your greatest point may be that it isnt necesary to be licensed , since there are states operating with out it. May be that there should be an organization that repersents us in our common feelings . After all , I keep agreeing with you. I would just like some insight of where we stop and start. Thats the main thing I was asking . We could push the point through to our goverment , but would that be in our own interrests? Before we could go to the senate , we would certainly have to make sense. I certainly dont have enough data to continue on this thought.
Another thing that has been brought to my attention in a recent post ;
We dont seem to be replacing our selves. Not professionally anyway. I look back on my training and realize it would be impossible to give that same training to a son today. For one thing , Im not sure I would want to. The computers of all kinds have shortened the interrest for one thing. [thats another thread , another time ] The pay was too low in the past to support interest . Go to college young man , or lady . I grew up with this theory that I felt I needed to go also, so I did . Here I am . My point ;
We may be getting our just amount of pay today because of the shortage. We are not making it any better either. No schools , bosses unwilling to train , list certainly goes on. Several years ago, I couldnt afford to train a green hand , I wasnt the only one in that boat. In sub work , "you have to get it" , theres no time for instructional classes on the job. So, here we are in todays world. Now what ?
Tim Mooney