Yesterday, my county passed a referendum to require all contractors working on county projects to provide proof that all employees are resident aliens or citizens [of the United States]. I am guessing the 2300% five-year increase in ethnic population of the ESL variety has finally pushed the county to a financial breaking point.
I now wonder if the county would consider out-sourcing a policing function in which contractors as a whole that operate, as a business and on a worksite, to provide equivalents in order to negotiate not being fined by the county. Yes, the new metermaid service.
Privatizing this effort would relieve the county in having to hire more employees while generating revenue through citations as it seeks to further discourage illegal practices in the county. Of course, the private inspection company might wind up employing illegal aliens, but that is another story. 🙂
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It's laughable that government keeps asking for or taking responsibility for our lives, then when they get the power, they find that they can't afford to do what it is they should be doing. Yours is but one example.
I went back to NY a few weeks ago and found that the town council passed a law that makes real estate brokers responsible if they lease an apartment and the apartment is not constructed to code. The argument is that the brokers actually get in to the apartments and the town employees often cannot do so legally without a warrant. I'm not a fan of R/E people in many situations but I think they have a gripe with this one. BTW, the law, as I understand it has no exceptions, so for example if there's a concealed vent pipe or some wiring that's n.g. they're responsible for that too. Nothing said about the homeowners. I recall testifying when they changed the law about 10-15 years ago to make it easier to get a warrant. I told them they didn't need more laws, only to enforce the ones they had properly. (I worked there briefly.)
Makes me real happy I left. On a political note it also kind of made me chuckle that they just elected the first Democratic Supervisor in about 40 years. Didn't they used to stand up for the rights of individuals?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Again there ole bud---welcome to the land of ya'lls--ain't so bad around here is it.
DW,
I knew long ago that "city life" wasn't for me. It just took me longer than I expected to get out. There are a few benefits, most of which weren't meaningful to me.
Sadly, the folks in government down here aren't always so wonderful either. They just put together a massive sign ordinance restricting what people can do with signs on their own property. Really overkill. And there's some stuff going on with local town expansion. The council says they're going to do it but nobody knows why. The area to be included says they don't want it 2:1. The people in town didn't ask for it and the county says they won't allow it. But the council just allocated 20K for legal fees to go ahead with it. Huh?
Life goes on.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
To a gubbmint person, population = power. So do funds.All upper echelon gubbmint people are power addicts.'Nuf said.SamT
Edited 6/28/2007 1:03 pm by SamT
And there's some stuff going on with local town expansion. The council says they're going to do it but nobody knows why. The area to be included says they don't want it 2:1. The people in town didn't ask for it and the county says they won't allow it. But the council just allocated 20K for legal fees to go ahead with it. Huh?
Don, common story. Here, the resolution was for the city to agree to stop expanding in exchange for annual county cash. Worked pretty well. Every now and again the city threatens to dis-incorporate when they think they could get a better deal. City tax rate is substantially higher, as are services rendered.
Currently has refused for 5 yrs to pay its share of the mutual landfill/transfer station. County and waste authority finally wised up and threatened to eliminate some services the city enjoys. Resolution imminent.
Has never had anything to do with the affected landowners preference. Just money.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
..."PANAMA CITY BEACH, Fla. (AP) - The sheriff's department has developed a remarkably effective - and controversial - way of catching illegal immigrants: Deputies in patrol cars pull up to a construction site in force, and watch and see who runs.
Those who take off are chased down and arrested on charges such as trespassing, for cutting through someone else's property, or loitering, for hiding out in someone's yard, or reckless driving, for speeding off in a car.
U.S. immigration authorities are then given the names of those believed to be in this country illegally.
"It's not wrong for them to run, but it's not wrong for us to chase them either," said Sheriff Frank McKeithen, who created his Illegal Alien Task Force in April to target construction sites in this Florida Panhandle county.
Immigrant advocates say the technique is repugnant, and the ACLU says its constitutionality is questionable....."
<<<<<<<<<HEY ACLU, somebody doing something illegal may have constitutional protection ????>>>>>>>>>>
futrther into the article, the sherriff is now targeting the contractors personnel records to find the illegals, and a developer of a multi-million dollar condo project is whining how nothing will be built if the illegals are run off
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
All they are doing is sending them into another area to take more of my work. This is a problem, that contractors are putting illegals into jobs the locals do want. Who do they think did this stuff before the mexicans got here? Top pay for a tradesman? $15 dollars Pensacola News Journal forums has a right lively discussion going on about this.
how is that developer supposed to live if people expect him to pay the going rate for legitimate workers ? hopefully the sherriff won't punish him since he has a company to runnow the slob has somehow got to figure a way to make a small profit so his family can have food in their belly, a roof over their head, and a BMW to go to the store.. you're heartless.catfish......give the jerk a break fer cryin out loud..our President told us years ago.." if you lose a job,......go get another job" there are jobs everywhere I guess.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
The $13 an hour they want to pay just won't make my bills. The contractor who is crying is building a $750 million dollar condo.
Of course, I've done exactly the right thing to be where I am now. Instead of winning friends, I've merely worked hard.
my remarks about him were meant as a joke.. I'm always alarmed when idiots like him cry poor.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
No offense taken, whats a poor guy gonna do? I was hoping for some kind of immigration bill that would at least slow the bleeding down, but what the heck.
A guy I know says any poor person has a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to live and support his family. Of course, he has enough money he hasn't worked since July 2005.
"what's a poor guy gonna do" If he is using illegal labor and is 'poor' then he is living well above his means. This is like a drug cartel saying they need a break because they can't make an honest living. Contractors knowingly using illegal labor are no better than drug trafficking people. Both are law-breakers.
Oh do I die today from a drug overdose or the house collapsing on me? :) I could be just like that poor slob and hiring a bunch of illegals to run my spot-inspections of construction sites and see what other illegals my illegals can catch. Hahaha
well I just don't think making them all legal is going to help anybody but those who are illegal. Contractors will just find some other way to get around the rules. homeowners will hire anybody cheap, always have.
I've met people bragging about how cheap they got a new roof, right before they ask me to fix the leaks.
Contractors that are paying illegal labor below "true market wages" ( i.e. a wage rate set if no outside labor source was imported to undercut the local labor market) are getting pretty close to being pre-Civil War slave masters. There are many similarities.
Slaves were paid (room and board) below true market wages. Just like illegals today.
It was said "slavery was needed to make a profit growing cotton". Just like contractors building a house say today. A lot of cotton and tobacco has since been grown without any slavery.
It was said "no one else will do the work". I heard Johnny Cash used to pick cotton. I myself will do about any labor for the right price.
It was said "a slave had it better here than back in Africa" so slavery was justified. Few illegals really want to leave there homes and family but are forced to by a corrupt government. As slave traders forced Africans on to slave ships.
Any many more.
All a man has is his labor. To undercut what that labor is worth is illegal and immoral. If illegals were paid the true market rates with all the benefits etc. I guess it would not be that immoral, just illegal. But why do that, if you are going to pay full wages why not just hire a citizen. Why do we keep hearing the rich are getting richer. Could it be they are benefiting from all the under cut labor rates out there. Remember labor is the biggest expense for any business. Sounds like pre-Civil War plantation owners to me. Maybe we need Civil War part II... Just something to think about.
You're a liberal, aren't you?"All a man has is his labor."Well, that's just BS. A man also has intelligence, experience, imagination, talent, drive and charisma, to name just a few profitable charateristics.Is the labor of our own Frenchy worth the same as the new guy in a furniture store? Should I make the same per hour as Stan Foster when I build stairs? Is an apprentice's labor valued the same as a Journeymans'? Maybe you would pay Stephen Hawking the same as the local accountant. There wouldn't even be an America without Chris Columbo's drive and charisma. Do we value him only because of his labor.Given all that, I think the single most profitable characteristic a man can possess is plain old guts. The willingness to take a risk and gamble. The belief that labor is all that should be valued is a denial of risk. It is actually an expression of jealousy that no one with more balls than oneself earn more than the speaker."Why do we keep hearing the rich are getting richer. Could it be they are benefiting from all the under cut labor rates out there."Oooh! Accusatory implications. Good one. Impossible to refute and you can always claim that you never said the rich used illegal aliens.Yano? I was agreeing with you, until I got down to that last, Marxist, paragraph.SamT
Edited 6/29/2007 6:55 pm by SamT
No everyones labor, which I hope includes the list you gave, takes me all those to do a job, is worth the same. But two people doing the same thing at the same place should make the same wage. And not just construction I'm talking about.
If you are building a $750 million dollar condo, my belief is you are rich. And the guy in Panama City is hiring illegals by his own admission.
Florida law says a LEO observing a felony must arrest.
"But two people doing the same thing at the same place should make the same wage"Taking that to it's logical conclusion, if you and I are talking to an employer with one opening, I should not be allowed to negotiate a wage that might be lower than yours, so that I get the job and not you.In fact, at it's utmost conclusion, all wages should be set by law.Are you sure that is what you want? No competition. Because that is what legally set wages means. The only possible ways left to compete is to lower quality or be more efficient.You're familiar with the arguments against "No Child Left Behind?" How about "No Employee Left Behind?"In any possible way to measure and compare humanity, you will find a Bell Curve. This is a law of nature and no man made law can repeal it, no more than it could repeal the law of gravity, make pi = 3, or make Creationism a scientific theory. SamT
"But two people doing the same thing at the same place should make the same wage
And the other thing catfish left out is the experience for the client. One could be smooth like buttah. Other, well different.
The two experiences should command different pricing levels.
Or if we are talking about employees. One employee is a joy to have around. Comes in 1 minute early. Clients love him/her. (metaphorically speaking) Dogs flock around. Birds chirp.
Other employee has the exact same skill set. But a little rough around the edges. Tats, smell of last night bar, kids run away, dogs cower in the corner.
Same wage?
to Sam and Scrapr---- both very well said !
to the guy( I can't remember who)----with the opinion that most people want to do the right thing-----sorry, but i disagree
we had a hail storm here a few weeks ago. I am a roofing contractor. MOST people, I recently find---will engage in ethically dubious behavior---given the chance. ------------"got a check from the insurance company, stephen---but do we REALLY need to replace the roof?"---or-people who call me BEFORE the insurance company----and then are pizzed when I tell them their roof is fine( they want a free roof from the insurance company)-----HUGE amount of insurance fraud going on here right now-----largely aided and abbetted by good old fashioned Texans ( storm chasers)----NOT illegal immigrants
also---to the fellow who noticed that$13/hour won't cover your bills----how is that the employers problem?==plenty of folks making $20 hour---$30/ hour---hell $300,000 a year----not paying their bills. Problem maybe not on the income side of the equation?------everybody wants PAID top dollar-----but they want to shop for bargains at wall mart !
Possibly the best life lesson my dad taught me( Sam touched on this also)
" Stephen--a man is only worth so much from the neck down---but he has unlimmited earning potential from the neck up "---- it's a harsh world when you find you are being outcompeted from the neck down!!!!! when you find somebody will outwork you----for less money--it's a cruel world.
well-- I am off to look at about 14 roofs today---BTW-- I am finding actually about 1 person in 10 is suprisingly honest--- the other 9 exhibit suprising amounts of " moral flexibility!"
Stephen
Well I personally make more than $13 an hour. Never said it was the employers problem. But I can't live 15 or 20 people in a house, and yes I've seen it on my block. If I have no insurance I can't just leave town if caught. I have a home here and I've lived in this country my whole life. Out work me? I'll die of a heart attack on the roof before anyone outwork me. But I'll never get on the ladder because contractors know white folks have to be paid a living wage.
Edited 6/30/2007 8:31 am ET by catfish
Sa, catfish, what the h e double hockey-sticks has competition do to with operating your business in a legal manner?
You break the law, you are no better than the worse criminal. Why not make your money selling drugs?
Because you cannot compete in the long run with someone whose costs are 30% less.
the 39 cent solution sounds good to me. If the government runs it, the cost will be 75 cents.
Hazlett said " 1 of 10 are honest, the other 9 show "moral flexibility" so yes some are in agreement about homeowners.
Edited 6/30/2007 9:17 am ET by catfish
catfish,
you absolutely CAN compete in the long run with people whose costs are 30% lower
you just can't compete based on price.
in some areas---people will be competing against contractors using illegal aliens
in my area I " compete" against contractors who use drunks and crackheads.--- that actually creates a HUGE opportunity for me
to deliver something the competition can NEVER provide with a crack head labor force.
your volume may shrink( that's fine!!!!!), and the type of work you do may change( into the more artisan oriented)---but the chance is there to make EVEN more $$$$ providing a product and an overall customer experience the $13/hour labor force can never provide.
Best wishes,
stephen
at least the drunks and crackheads die young. The flow of illegals never stops. Changing scope would have worked before this slowdown, but actually, thats what got me into this mess.
In 2004, I moved from residential to commercial work. Trim carpentry and hired my first employees. 6 months later, hurricane Ivan hit here. I was unable to collect monies owed, and it eventually bankrupted me.
Almost everyone I've talked to around here is very slow. We have insurance problems in this state along with a property tax measure that is slowing things down even more. I would leave here but my wife just has to good a job.
Hang in there, Bro, that too, will change. Fla, at least one county, is leading the way out of the illegal mess.SamT
after 3 years I'm used to being broke. And theres a lot more important things. I was able to go to all my sons senior baseball games, first time I didn't have to miss one for work.
This to, will pass.
What are you talking about?This?***********
"But two people doing the same thing at the same place should make the same wage"Taking that to it's logical conclusion, if you and I are talking to an employer with one opening, I should not be allowed to negotiate a wage that might be lower than yours, so that I get the job and not you.In fact, at it's utmost conclusion, all wages should be set by law.Are you sure that is what you want? No competition.
*************Consider your question, "what ... has competition do to with operating your business in a legal manner?" in the context of my statement; That the labor burden of two competitors is identical. While materials are commodities, there is a range of costs one can choose from, but that range is pretty much set by the quality of the materials. One could only reduce labor costs by cutting labor intensive corners, ie cutting quality.In what other cost area can they then compete? Non-Direct Labor related overhead and profit? Fire all the office help and DIY? That only reduces your own effective hourly wage. By a huge factor. Reduce your profit by half? That might drop your overall price by at most 5%.SamT
Edited 6/30/2007 3:18 pm by SamT
"Why do we keep hearing the rich are getting richer. Could it be they are benefiting from all the under cut labor rates out there."
""Oooh! Accusatory implications. Good one. Impossible to refute and you can always claim that you never said the rich used illegal aliens.""
My statement is not a "accusatory implication" it is a sarcastic statement of fact. Anyone that takes advantage of one man's illegal status as an excuse to undercut another legal citizens "true market wage" and thus enrich himself in the process, is committing an immoral act. The more we all shine a light on that fact the better.
Any statement that has "true market wage" in it, is not Marxist, it is good old Capitalism.
It could be the condo builder enriching himself or my neighbor with illegals on his roof shingling up a storm. They both left more money in their pockets, because a local man was undercut. You do that enough times, a few condos or a few roofs, and you can really get richer and richer.
Pass this word around, most people are good and do not want to commit immoral acts. They just do not know any better because it is seldom talked about.
If you will make the effort to read what I said, it is obvious that I was only talking of your last paragraph.Specifically two statements which I quoted so there would be no misunderstanding by you about what I was talking about. "All a man has is his labor." and"Why do we keep hearing the rich are getting richer. Could it be they are benefiting from all the under cut labor rates out there"I momentarily forgot that you were a liberal, and would defend yourself against something that was never said. That way reality wouldn't get in your way.Edited 6/30/2007 7:22 am by SamT
Edited 6/30/2007 7:27 am by SamT
"well I just don't think making them all legal is going to help anybody but those who are illegal. Contractors will just find some other way to get around the rules. homeowners will hire anybody cheap, always have.
I've met people bragging about how cheap they got a new roof, right before they ask me to fix the leaks."
You seem comfortable commiting to blanket statements about homeowners. Let me see ... if 99.9% of the contractors are commiting theact and doing things cheaply and the remaining 0.1% is building $5 Million and Up homes, then what should the common homeowner do? Ah, do without any sort of roof. :)
I am not advocating making any illegal legal. In fact, I am all for the $0.39 solution. In fact, I say take that law-breaking contractor and his illegals and put them in the same hole (post $0.39 solution, of course).
to provide proof that all employees are resident aliens or citizens
Well gee, how are they going to do that?
Right now, you have to xerox the DL & SSC, so you can say you asked for it. Ever looked into what is costs to find out is Juan (NMI) Sanchez's SSN really is nnn-nn-nnnn? Nobody who writes these rules ever seems to have done so.
I mean, I "get" why the county wants to do it, but, without specifying the "how" of it, have they done anything, really?
Do you get a pass if you xerox your payroll roster and everyone has an SSN? County is going to check to see if your payroll has Peron, Eva (NMI) on it twice? Or that Zapata, Emilio, P JyM, is in fact non-decendent?
If the employee has state-issued Dl & SSN, even if in the name of Rafe L. Trujillo, what do you do? (Sr. Trujillo Molina having been assinated in '61 in Dominica)
I'm all for solutions--they jsut need to work.