I’ve sold a lot of cranes in the past and someone suggested that i cover the economics of crane, from rental to ownership.
There are three types of cranes used in home construction. (actually 4 if you count crawler cranes)
They are Truck mounted cranes where a truck (like Sterling, Mack or Perterbuilt) carries someones crane on it.. (like National Terex or Pioneer)
There are Truck cranes where the crane manufacturer builds the chassis, crane and everything.. (Terex, Grove and Linkbelt)
There are rough terrain crane where the crane is delivered to the job site by a flat bed truck and then travels around under it’s own power.. Japaneese rough terrain cranes and some european cranes have the ability to drive to jobsites with road speeds up to 45 MPH. They aren’t legal on most US roads for two prime reasons, axle weight and the fact that thre is no direct steering to the steer axles (it’s all hydraulic)
Usually when you call a crane company to set roof trusses you are calling what is called a Taxi crane service.. they send out a truck crane or a truck mounted crane with an operator..
Union shops will send out a crane an operator and an oiler.. the oiler is the guy who places the pads under the outriggers, and usually will hook up the load on the ground freeing you from providing that guy..
Unions want oilers to train them about handling cranes to make it efficent and to use the cranes time.. An oiler is trained as to when a spreader bar is called For and how to attach it.
Cost varies greatly some independants may only charge $90 an hour while a union shop may easily charge $175 an hour.. some companies charge portal to portal while an independant may only charge time on site (but maybe at a higher rate)
Capacity also determines rates.. If you call for a 30 ton crane you need to understand that a 30 ton truck crane and a 30 ton Truck Mounted crane are dramatically differant.
truck mounted cranes have a 5 foot load circle and a Truck crane uses a ten foo load cirle as ratings.. That 5 foot circle means that a 30 ton truck mounted crane can only pick 30 tons in a five foot circle from Pin center. usually not even enough capaicity to get off The truck plus it’s capaicty goes down dramatically from there.. It may not be able to lift 500 pounds 100 feet from the center pin. Since the headache ball is often 300 pounds or more and it’s easy for a spreader bar to weigh 80 pounds or more Truck Mounted cranes might not be able to put the trusses where you need them..
Older truck cranes had their weakness too they may have been able to barely do the minimum speed limit to get on the freeway and sometimes lose even that on uphill runs.. Newer truck cranes may be able to do better than 70 MPH.. However newer truck cranes may have a much greater reach than a truck mounted crane does often 30 or 40 feet more.
right now crane operators are hard pressed.. many bought their Truck Mounted Cranes when rates were higher due to high demand and low capacity, Now with attending lower demand caused in part by the proliferation of Forklifts and overabundance of cranes the operators are forced to make tough choices.. To delay the needed maintinace operators are often trading in early While the required maintinace may actually be lower than the increase in payments, the attending downtime is postponed.. I’ve known a couple of operators who felt they had to start from scratch when their tuck mounted crane required heavy maintinace in the middle of a busy summer and they weren’t able to respond to their customers calls..
It’s not uncommon for an owner operator to have to make $4000.00 a month payments on a tax lease (tax lease /residule Payment/ ballon lease) the value of truck mounted cranes really tends to depreciate quickly as the maintinance goes up with age and hours.. In general truck mounted cranes require greater maintinace and suffer more down time than truck cranes do.. That makes their value towards the end of the lease lower than the residual.
In addition truck Mounted cranes pay road taxes are licensed and buy fuel where the state and federal taxes are on it.. truck cranes on the other hand are exempt from such since they are considered contruction equipment.. Thus Not only do truck cranes have lower operation costs they hold their resale value higher, longer and spend less time in the shop..
You pay for that in that truck cranes cost 15 to 20% more than truck mounted cranes do. On the other hand the paymens may be the same since the residual is higher and the working life is longer..
A little known fact is that since truck cranes are considered construction equipment and as such exempt from normal highway rules a good attorney could argue that there is no need for an operators license on the road. ( I wouldn’t try to argue with the highway patroll if you’d lost your license for a DWI infraction and got stopped) <G>
A typical budget may include about $35.00 per hour for payments another $5.00 an hour for maintinace, plus currantly as high as $7.50 per hour for fuel and insurance. (truck mounted cranes will need a few more dollars for license and insurance)even at $90 per hour few owner operators are getting rich. subtract down time and slow time from the income side of the ledger and I know carpenters who make more per hour..
The potental is there though, once you are established and capable of keping the crane busy at $150 an hour it’s not uncommon for crane owners to earn sixfigures a year..
Replies
Just a few thoughts to add, since we deal with cranes every day.
Most trusses around here are set with truck mounted cranes. Some truss plants deliver the trusses with the crane truck. Others roll the trusses off and you have to hire your own crane.
You said: "Truck Mounted cranes might not be able to put the trusses where you need them..". But that depends on the SIZE of the crane itself, which you didn't mention.
I think we have 12 crane trucks, and no 2 of them have the same crane on them. Some only have a 65' stick, and our biggest one has 110' on it.
It's worth asking about the crane size BEFORE the crane shows up. You might not need a big crane to set a house if you ahve good access. But if you can't get the truck close to the house, or can't move around it due to trees you may need a bigger one.
I've never heard of anyone anyone send 2 guys out with a crane. That must be a regional thing.
Very few people around here have ANY kind of crane. (Except for the truss companies) The insurance is so high no one wants to run them. I never see the truck cranes on anything but large commercial jobs. Again, that must be regional.
Good subject - I don't think this has been discussed here before.
BossHog,
I'm sorry it was so brief. I started it with the intention of being more complete but market forces* caused me to terminate it. I did mention that truck mounted cranes (the proper name for cranes mounted on commercial truck chassis like Sterling, Mack Peterbuilt) ) have little capacity compared to truck cranes..(like Terex, Grove, Linkbelt)
That is based on the 5 foot capacity circle compared to the 10 foot capacity circle in truck cranes.. Thus a 30 ton truck crane will have a lot more capacity than a 30 ton truck mounted crane.. The reach of a given crane is determioned by a number of factors such as who built it If it has a truss jib or stick jib and when it was built..
In your case is that 65 feet plus jib or with jib,, Truck mounted cranes like you use really los capacity with jibs and often don't have them. or if they do have them it takes a real rigger to get them inplace.. newer truck cranes have the jibs mounted on the main boom and all it takes to get to use is an easy unpinning and swingout..
Taxi crane companies that are union are forced by union work rules to send an oiler out with any truck crane but are allowed to not use oilers when using a truck mounted crane.. That is pretty universal across the country..
Truck mounted 30 ton cranes will have 90 foot main boom and maybe a 25 foot jib. the capacity at the full diameter is only a couple of hundred pounds maybe less.
Truck cranes will have as much as 105 foot main boom and a 45 foot swingout.. plus even at their much greater working circle have more capacity.
Insurance is much lower on truck cranes than truck mounted cranes.. in addition your insurance may be high due to the age of your fleet.. Plus you need to license all of those trucks and pay for road use tax on all fuel you use..
Minnesota lags behind much of the nation with regard to number of cranes sold and licensed. Only rural states like Mississippi and Arkansaw are as low. On the east and west coast truck cranes dominant due to their greater usefullness.. The first pick may erect trusses, the second lift steel into a warehouse, the third put a new A/C unit on the roof downtown, the fifth may be to put trusses up again and the sixth may be to pick up a overturned Semi.
The really fun part of this business is those big 200 ton German built cranes like Demagg etc. (by the waymost of them are horribly illegal since they conform to european laws and not to americans laws.. thus there is no direct connection to steer axles and the bridge span on their axles is too great to meet road restrictions..)
Now coming into this country are the french built self erecting tower cranes.. almost as portable as a truck crane and with a whole lot more working height/diameter.. (but then who wants a renault/ peugot diesel engine?)
* a customer wanted to buy a Forklift)
Here's what I get to play with at Air Canada
View Image
http://www.moderngroup.com/Products/CarryDeck.htm
35 000 lbs at 6 feet and 4 ropes.
1 rope 7 500 lbs
with jib installed 45 feet in hight and on rubbers approx 1500 lbs
out riggers 3 000 lbs"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
jet,
I used to sell a lot of Broderson carry deck cranes, they really are the cream of the industrial cranes. A big user of carry deck cranes are refineries who use them for many things.
From the tiny little stand up unit to the bigger units they dominate the market like nobody else..
I never sold any to the airlines around here. (the headquarters of Northwest airlines) they all use industrial forklifts for engine work.. That has it's short comings as United used to switch engines with Forklifts and towards the end they had a engine drop off their DC10 over Chicago and that went a long way to their bankrutcy.. In the end it was traced to a bolt not properly installed due to the fork drift that is usual in the really big forklifts..
Frenchy et al,
Its thread like this that keep me coming back. Great first hand info.
thanks to everybody
-SRJ
Great information! It helps to put all the pieces together.
Frenchy
Some time this winter when you sitting there and watching the icycles grow, a dissertation on rough terrain forklifts similar to what you did with cranes would be welcome. You have sung the virtues of rough terrain forklifts from time to time but I don't recall anything as comprehensive as what you've done in this thread. Also, I think you mentioned once about a forklift license - who trains, tests, etc., for it.
I have an ancient Clark 4000 lb forklift that I probably paid too much for but needed something in a hurry that was light enough for me to haul behind my C2500 pickup. Not much was available on the low end of the used market that fit that catagory. It is a manual transmission - which makes me wish that I had at least three feet (left or otherwise). Hope to upgrade to some type of slushbox in the future.
CaseyR
The OSHA mandaite for license is the contractors obligation. No one has a universal licences. that is a license issued by one contractor isn't valid with another.. (done becaue of the differant forklifts each contractor owns and because there is no such thing as universal agreement about capicities and operation).
The best source for a contractor to get an instructors license would be the dealer. With an instructors license a contractor can certify each operator and they won't need to go to the dealer for the scheduled training..
There are some real requirements regarding training and please don't just pencil whip the license out.. Even with a prope license on hand if you failed to provide the required training the contractor assumes liability..
I suspect Iknow the Clarkforklift you have, I sold a bunch of those back when I was selling Industrial forklifts and didn't really understand the requirements of rough terrain lifts. Those weren't really suitable for rough terrain but usable on what is called improve jobsites (another words leveled and gravel put down).. Nice machine that were butt simple to work on and decently reliable.. Extremely marginal for towing behind a 3/4 ton. The total weight is too close when put on a heavy enough trailer to handle it safely to the load limit of the truck.. It's been 20 plus years but I think it required a extremely heavy duty 3/4 ton to carry it.. (and then you'd better only have a 1/4 tank of fuel ;-)
At $4000 I don't think you over paid, The scrap value alone must be close to that. Lotta Iron in a 4000# forklift.. Let me say I've never sold one cheaper! don't even think about switching it to an automatic.. Not in the least practical..Buy one with an automatic..
If you need a light forklift look at Ingersol Rand's little Bobcat.. Fair warning. That machine is made in Frtance and the French as well as all europeans have a differantstandard of durability. Not that the frame will break or the engine blow up, but the little nickle dime things that go wrong will be high..
In europe those machines are primarily used by farmers. they all tend to be owner operators and they most often are brought home every night.. If a switch or lever fails it's not a big probelm to europeans. Here in America if a swich fails and the forlift doesn't operate most carpenters need to call a serviceman..
New ingersol rands use gold plated switch contacts to prevent welding. In additon they use extremely high grades of switches.. Europeans use very low grade switches.. I know a lot of 5/7 year old IngersolRand Forklifts whose original switches have been rained and snowed on for that whole period and they still work perfectly!
That has it's short comings as United used to switch engines with Forklifts and towards the end they had a engine drop off their DC10 over Chicago and that went a long way to their bankrutcy.. In the end it was traced to a bolt not properly installed due to the fork drift that is usual in the really big forklifts.
Just for the record that was American that was using that procedure and lost an engine due to it so it had little to do with United's bankruptcy. It was American flt 191 to be exact.Tom
Douglasville, GA
To really nit-pick, we used to request 30-40 ton cranes on trusses.
Main reason was since we're paying $80-90/hour, might as well let the crane hoist the hacks of roof plywood up.If it were easy....a caveman could do it.
I'd love to be able to hire a 30-40 ton crane for $90.
We have always managed to hoist the plywood up with much lighter cranes. I can't fathom a reason why you'd need such a large crane for plywood, unless you had an aversion to splitting the lifts into managable loads.
Theres several good reasons to split the bunks and very few for lifting it in one lift.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
Inthe detriot area there are a lot of truck cranes and the rates for them remain higher (since they really have a lot more capacity than truck mounted cranes {plus they cost an additional 15 to 20% more})
I suspect Framer T was getting a 30/35 ton truck mounted crane at that rate which as I said earlier has it's rating 5 feet from the pin verses a truck cranes 10 feet from the pin. I can't think of any 40 ton truck mounted crane off the top of my head. There are plenty of 40 ton truck cranes.
Okay Frenchy, keep the info flowing in here.
Can you post links to pictures of truck mounted cranes and truck cranes.
I'm getting confused.
Also, I agree wholeheartedly about using that forklift for plywood on the roof. It's actually one of the best things about them! We still use a lot of cleats, but of course, they go up on the forklift at the same time as the plywood.
I used to be one of those "old guys" that didn't think forklifts were needed. Now, I wouldn't stay in the business without one. I certainly wouldn't hire on any crew unless they owned one. I currently have that old crane and the new Trak, and if I had to choose only one, I'd keep the trak. I'd take the Skytrak over a brand new Terex.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
OK I have the devils own time posting pictures. If I could I'd be posting regular updates of my timberframe..
Let me try to make it simple for you..
a truck mounted crane, is one that has a truck chassis under it.. Ford, Peterbuilt, GMC, you know a regular cab and chassis.
A Truck Crane is one where the chassis is built by the crane company. They have a single seat up front and the crane portion has a second seat (or operators seat).
your comments about owning a forklift are the same I hear every time I sell one to a first time owner.. Why didn't I do this sooner.. I guess I better repeat forklift economics 101
You should be happy to know that untill recently Skytrack was the most popular forklift made. Skytrack achieves it's large marketing share thru clever marketing. They position themselves to be a low bid price forklift and there are few contractors who fail to go with the lowest bid since they themselves often are forced to live by the low bid process..
Recently Terex has positioned itself to compete at the bottom end of the price market.
Tower cranes aren't used much in the US except for high-rise construction. In congested areas, T-types (or hammerheads) can't be used without violating some elses air rights, so short tail-swing types are required, like these FMC Link-Belt. On the left is an early 1500 (86 UST, if memory serves), on the right a 1900 (115 UST).
I design and build winches for these things, as well as other parts (and other types of equipment, for that matter), so I've tossed in a couple of shots of a real winch. <g> It'll hoist a 3-1/2 cubic yard concrete bucket at 700 ft/min, and has a Cat 3412 at 750 hp. As far as I know, it's still the fastest concrete crane in NYC. Two of them were used to build the two towers of the new AOL/Timer Warner building on Columbus Circle, after the steel bottom "plinth" was erected (four were used for that). They'll freestand up to about 160 ft, but over 200 ft with a larger (12' square, up from 9'-9" square) bottom tower section, and have unlimited height when fully supported within the building structure.
Be seeing you...
U da man TKanzier!
Thanks for the pics.
blue
Great pics, keep em coming! I bet that winch could pull a truck out of the mud with no problem.;-) You would have to reinforce your front bumper though. lol
Well, that one's a bit puny, actually. It's only got about 45,000 lb line pull, but with a different drum and a different ratio in the planetaries, it's good for about 70,000 lb with 1-5/8" rope (but only 58,000 with 5:1 on the rope breaking strength). I'm working on a dual drum (waterfall style - one in front of the other) unit for a customer for handling a 35 cubic yard clamshell bucket. It'll have a 1000 hp Cat engine.
By the way, those tower cranes go for about 35 to $40k per month, without operator, oiler, foundation, bracing to the building, engineering, building reinforcement (for tower reactions), erection (involves an assist crane, usually in the 300+ ton range), dismantling (usually involves a derrick on the roof), spare parts, fuel, anything. But for all that money, all the contractors and subs get to claim that every time it burps, it slowed the job, and they want relief in the form of non-payment of rental invoices. It's an ugly business.Be seeing you...
Wow....
Couple of weeks ago my family dragged me off to the city for some culture. Washington DC this time. I found those tower cranes fascinating. Hope you don't mind a hick question. How's the operator get up there in the morning? Looked like an awful long climb.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well, in a nutshell, it is an awful long climb, especially if it's freestanding 200' or more. 5 or 6 stories and I need a reclining chair.
The operators are usually paid 1/2 hr or more at each end of a shift for getting up and down - depends on the agreement between the contractor and the union. Some of the really big ones have an elevator. But when it's tied to a building, they're rarely more than 6 stories above the working floor, so they go up in a construction elevator, walk a plank to the tower, then climb the stairs or ladder (look closely in the photo). But tiptoeing across steel beams to get to the crane tower isn't my idea of fun, especially with 40 to 60 feet to fall before hitting something, but when duty calls ... my hands are getting clammy just thinking about it. And, or course, the building itself is moving around when the crane is working, making it harder for the iron workers hanging steel to do their job.
By the way, the ones you saw in DC are almost certainly hammerhead types, with electric drives (very slow compared to diesel), since there's plenty of room between buildings for the tailboom. Folks in NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. don't want 23,000 lb counterweights dropping through their roofs, so short tailbooms (like 25 ft or less) are the order of the day.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with Fine Homebuilding, unless your fine home is in a high-rise in a big city. My apologies to frenchy for hijacking his thread. There was a lot of good info coming out about using mobile cranes for residential construction. It just seemed to have run its course, and was drifting into peripheral topics.Be seeing you...
I lived just outside the Capitol beltway for years and I've seen alot of crains around here. But the funny thing is, I've never seen one go up. I'll be driving down the road and all of a sudden there one is! How do they get those things up there?!Chief of all sinners.
The foundation, if any, is built in advance. If it's freestanding, it's a substantial reinforced concrete foundation, but they can also be mounted on a large steel grillage, with concrete ballast at the corners.
A large truck crane (400 to 600 ton is common) is used to erect it. The tower is erected, and as much of the upper is assembled as the assist crane can lift to the height desired. The closer they can get it to it's finished height, the better, since it's usually slower to climb it under it's own power (and time is big $$ with unionized crew of ironworkers and operating engineers). Depending on the model, the boom may be on it, or not. If not, it can be preassembled on the ground, though some machines (tee-types) are made to have the boom added in pieces after the butt section in place. Often, just the rotating upper structure is placed (the deck, about 40,000 lb), then the winch unit(s), the mast (holds the boom up), the boom, and the counterweights (ours are 23,000 lb each, times 4 or 5, depending on which crane).
It usually only takes a couple of days, including the tower. I would imagine most folks wouldn't notice the tower being erected if it's next to the building (and tied to it), and it only takes a day to get the upper in place. It may take another day or two to have it fully operational, but over the course of a day, all the spinning bits are up there.
In NYC, they're usually erected and dismantled over a weekend, since the City won't allow road closings for crane erection during the week. The assist crane is usually large, with a large outrigger spread and lots of cribbing (got to spread the load very wide, and it's usually an engineered installation), so most of, if not the whole, street is blocked. DC isn't quite as tightly packed, so they may allow crane erection during the week.
After it's erected as high as the assist crane can handle, the crane is self-climbed to it's finished height. On tall buildings, the finished height may be 1000' or more, so it's either erected inside the perimeter of the new building, eventually to be totally supported by the building structure (usually startes on a foundation, then gets transferred to the building), or if not too tall (like not over 600'), may be erected outside the building, and tied to it every so often. The building has to be reinforced in either case to handle the reactions from the crane. When you're on the working floor (highest floor that's been decked), you can feel the building moving around under you as the crane works. It's a little disconcerting until you get used to it. But nothing's as disconcerting as being in one that's freestanding 200' or so - the pucker factor is in full swing when heavy loads are being lifted, as the lateral deflection can be huge, and feel huger.
To dismantle and the end of a job, a derrick (kind of crane made up of little pieces) is brought up in a freight elevator or external construction elevator, and erected (tied to building columns poking through the roof). As often as not, the winch and engine unit are on the ground, held down with ballast, with the wiere ropes running up the side of the building to the derrick. A small electric hydraulic pump unit is usually used for the swing function.
The tower crane is taken apart piece by piece, usually the same way it's erected. If the tower crane is on an outside climber (mounted to a foundation, tied to the building every so often), then it is usually climbed all the way down, then dismantled by an assist crane. If it's on an inside climber (in the middle of the building), then it's dismantled with a derrick. After the crane is dismantled, the derrick is dismantled, this time without the aid of the crane, which isn't there any more. Ironworkers are pretty good at that sort of thing.
For lower buildings, there are self-erecting types, which require less assembly. That's not what I work on, so frenchy would probably be the one to ask about them. The ones I work with were originally designed for power plant construction, as they could be erected on a tower, erect the building, then be transferred to a bogie (essentially a giant skateboard on rails) on the roof to work for a couple of years outfitting the powerhouse with all the heavy bits inside. That's why our small ones have a lift capacity of 115 tons, up to 230 tons for a version with a heavier boom and tower (8 parts of 1-5/8" rope max, 12' square tower). That's huge for a crane that size, but they were intended to do both steel erection and heavy lifting of power plant components. Turns out they're real good at high steel erection, too, with an almost 900 ft/min empty hook speed, and 58,000 lb single-part line pull (can bring a whole truck load of steel up in one shot).
Or is that more than you wanted to know ...Be seeing you...
I swear you guys could charge money to folks like me to give tours of working crane sites.
TKanzler,
Those bigger tower cranes are still a small segment of the market.. their usage and their number have remained consistant at a steady growth rate..
what has dramatically increased from virtually nothing to 2% of the crane market in the last decade is the use of the smaller tow behind self erecting cranes. Ones that in Europe can be used at a couple of jobsites a day. Here they tend to remain for several months, they also tend to be bigger than those used in Europe.
Don't remember exact crane size, but he had to back within a couple feet of the front wall and still could'nt place half/hack of 5/8ply at back wall.
No, we don't send whole hacks at a time, too much weight in 1 spot.
A couple pics;
http://domania.us/FramerT/club%20house/11239764810001.image.jpghttp://domania.us/FramerT/club%20house/11243149530005.image.jpgIf it were easy....a caveman could do it.
Excellent frames Joe.
It doesn't surprise me that the crane couldn't set half a stack of 5/8". I only grab about 12" of ply with my old tired unit.
The skytrak can grab the entire stack, with ease. In fact, we regularly grab the entire lift and reposition it before we break the bands.
blue
FramerT
Plywood, now that's a rub!
I would much rather see a fortlift used to set the plywood up. There are several reasons the best one is that the forklift provides a bit of fall protection. In addition when plywood is shoved up thru the rafters, it is too labor intensive.. One down below lifting and one up above pulling plus probably one to carry it over and set it in place..
Starting from picking up a bunker of plywood. That operation calls for one on the ground to load the bunker and one on the attic to unload the bunker. Oh you could wait while the guy is climbing ladders and get by with only one guy but at $90+an hour that sounds expensive to me..
Finally If you have a work platform you have your feet on a nice safe flat surface.. You lift the plywood into place nail it down do the required cuts and then the operator raises you up four feet and you repeat!. Two guys.. a plywood guy and operator can roof in much less time than the three or four guys who are climbing the rafters and nailing cleats down while somebody below is lifting the sheets into place..
Thank You Tom,
I stand corrected.. Old memory since I was in negotiations with Northwest at the time regarding their purchase of just such a forklift..
how about these bad boys that were used to put a 767 on it's belly prior to cutting up for scrap here at AC in Montreal.
View Image"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
I dont know . How heavy is a 7-47?
Dummies read thses things too. <G> I realize the plane looks huge , but they arent made of steel.
Oops a big edit was necesary. <G>
Tim
Edited 10/2/2005 1:25 pm ET by Mooney
the 747
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/technical.html
the 767
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/technical.html
the 777
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/777technical.html"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
Thats only a mere 610,000 pounds with out fuel or cargo. <G>
Tim
that is total max weight at takeoff.
The 767 in the picture is without fuel, interior, gears, engines, and most of the electronics.
So about 1/4 of the total takeoff weight. "Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
How's your trouble shooting skills???
On our broderson crain we have a Royco computer for limits etc...
Today I had the crain in position to lift an aircraft part ( about 200 lbs). I lifted the boom and lowered the ball to allow for hook up to the load. turned the engine off while waiting for the others to get ready. As I turned on the engine again for the lift I could only lower the ball. All other functions are locked out. (Boom up/down........Boom ext/retr......Boom left/right.....all four out riggers....as well as load up, all locked out).
Tried fast reset of the Royco with nil fix.
The millrights crew here tried to trouble shoot it and have found nothing yet. As it is getting to be end of shift it will now be Monday before they will look at it again.
Sounds like a Royco service call to me,
Oh well the beer will taste the same tonight even if the cowling for the engine is still on the floor. hehehehe!"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
While waiting for frenchy, I'll toss in my two cents.
I'm not familiar with Royco LMI's, but it sounds like it thinks the main hoist is overloaded. Ours don't prevent boom up on overload, but some mobile units I've seen do (because booming up against a large overload could pull the unit over). Is the display indicating an overload?
Another possibility is that the A2B switch is stuck, or the cable or it's connector(s) is (are) faulty. Does the LMI display two-block shutdowns? Is there a jib or another A2B switch that could be activated? Be seeing you...
Thanks to you and Frenchy for the suggestions.
I'll take this in on Monday and see what the millrights guys come up with. The best thing is the boom is at a 44 degree angle right now. At least it's in front of the wing of the airplane and we can back the airplane out of the hanger. If the crane was on the back side of the wing we would have had a real problem as the airplane is due out on Tuesday.
Once again thanks a bunch and I'll keep you posted."Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
jet,
I had some similar troubles like that with a LMI on Terex.. In the end it turned out to be a temporary glitch in the computer.. The circuit board had jiggled loose and somehow that reset the paramitters.. Turning off everything and letting it sit for an hour then resetting all the limit switches manually solved it..
MY guys tell me that they save themselves a fair bit of trouble shooting by disconnecting all power inputs for a while and then resetting limit switches by hand to ensure there isn't any binding.
if that fails you are forced to verify all limit switches and then the next possible solution is replace the computer with a known good one.. Days of sitting and tracing out signals with an O scope, multimeter, and some jumper wires is really over..
The capacity of the crane generally isn't an issue when setting trusses. A 40' truss may only weigh 280#. And we often don't have to set them at the limits of the crane's reach. The lengths I mentioned include a fold-out jib. Pretty much all the crane guys I've seen set trusses have used the jib all the time.
There was a power outage at a department store yesterday. Twenty people were trapped on the escalators.
Boss Hog,
I'd need to know a whole lot about your statement to either verify or refute it.. There are some truck mounted cranes who couldn't swing a 280# truss into place if it's 50 feet from the pin while other truck mounted cranes can easily accomplish such a task.. Remember truck mounted cranes are rated 5 feet from the pin while truck cranes are rated at 10 feet from the pin..
Pheww!
I wonder how many people confuse the two terms or use them interchangeably.. I'm sure that in part is why rates are dropping so much.
Those who own truck cranes take real pains to claim they are the "real" cranes. (but if that's true what do you call all those truck mounted cranes in your fleet ? <G>)
I don't see the jib used all of the time.. some cranes it's a real pain to set in place and some drop it off to gain that extra little bit of capacity.. In fact most of the LMI systems have a setting for jib on or off since the weight of the jib will reduce the capacity by say 700 pounds. (sometimes a lot more)
If you like, I'll take pictures of a couple of them and post 'em for ya. That will give you a better idea of what we use.
Have you noticed since everyone has a camcorder these days no one talks about seeing UFOs like they used to?
Thanks Frenchy. I'm always learning new things on the forums. I noticed the small tower cranes throughout Germany at literally every construction site including single family homes.
One of my friends told me that these are used in lieu of forklifts and loaders on most construction sites in europe.
I wondered at the time (8 or 9 years ago) why they had not seen much use in the states other than the larger commercial buildings.
Is this changing at all?
Thanks,
Marc
Marc,
Self erecting tower cranes are becoming more popular here in the United States however they are a relative drop in the bucket compared to Europe.. (still a tiny percentage of the total crane market here in the US) Their prime disadvantage here is that you need three people to operate them, one on the ground to set the loads, one above to unload, and the operator.. A forklift is able to pick up the load and place it with just one person so the only time a tower crane is called for is when the job site is either too crowded so a forklift cannot get around or the lifts are so tall that even the 56 foot forklifts on the market aren't able to make the lift..
Potain is the dominate company in tower cranes and they have a rather lose arrangement with their dealers.. Often all you need to become a tower crane dealer (depending on the location) is to purchase one tower crane with your promise to purchase others.. The trouble with that approach to marketing is there usually isn't any trained mechanics available to service the cranes nor is there a supply of parts. If you need to order a part from France there is the language barrier, and the time differance. (they may be in bed when you decide to order and awake when you are still in bed) With airfrieght it's no longer as tough to get the parts here as it was when parts were sent on the next ship so you should be able to get your parts within 48 hours (assuming of course you are near a major city, add another day if you are in the rural areas)
In europe where they are much more popular Tower cranes (self erecting or otherwise) are often towed behind smaller trucks to the job site. Our 1 or 2 ton trucks would tow many of the smaller self erecting tower cranes.
Thank you for that article, well written. Our electrical construction company owns a 28 ton Grove rough terrain crane. We purchased it (used) from a leasing company a few years ago. We mostly use it internally for projects where we are the general contractor. Occasionally we hire it out for a truss job. I can confirm the economic figures you quote. There also seems to be some downward pressure on pricing developing. Recently we had a truss job on a commercial building that was a block from our shop. The general contractor told me that a crane service that he regularly uses was willing to drive 180 miles round trip at no charge just to do the job at the same hourly rate. The GC thought we should come down on our price to justify him hiring us. I reminded the G.C. that the previous year I had purchased over $25,000.00 of materials from them. They hired us for the job but still thought they deserved a discount. The advantage of a rough terrain crane is that you can move around the job site much easier and do the same job with a smaller crane. The down side of course is the hauling issue. We have our own low boy but it still takes time to load and unload the unit each time. The closest truck crane of any capacity is 65 miles away. That was one of the reasons we purchased our own crane in the first place.
Roger6
Grove led the market for decades and only recently passed in market share by Terex.. Rough terrain cranes really are handy on commercial job sites but if they become stuck it's a real headache since you may be dealing with 50,000 pounds or more. When I was selling them Terex commanded over 80% of the rough terrain market with Grove having 13% and Linkbelt 5 % the remaining was from Tadano and a few others.
Here In Minnesota where heavy clay is the norm they usually require a class 5 be laid around the building site before risking driving around..
Yes downward pressure on rates is insane.. often owner operators charge rates so low as to not be able to make all of their payments.. counting on the finanace company not wanting to own their crane... Insurance is a sometimes thing purchased when the contractor requires it to bid and let lapse when not checked..
Interesting summary. Thanks. Guess mine doesn't fit the program:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thank you Frenchy for that dissertation. I learned a few things.
Here in Michigan, we don't have to put plates on our cranes, as long as we don't carry anything. At least that's what I've been told by a guy who has done this for twenty years. I use a guy with a CDL license to drive mine and we sandwhich him front and back with our trucks to escort him around town.
If you could, could you please elaborate on the newer models vs older models with regard to computerized saftey systems. It seems like the older 12 ton models can lift a lot more than the newer 12 ton models.
I've noticed that the price on used models is dropping significantly. $40k will buy you a lot of crane nowadays.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
It's a myth that newer cranes won't pick what older cranes did.. Newer cranes have LMI's installed to prevent them from being overloaded.. Older cranes relied on the oprators seat of the pants and a guestimate of what the load actaully was.
If you shut off the LMI and bypass safetys you can easily out pick an older crane.. Now older cranes had much shorter booms and a swing out jib was rare. Thus it would seem that a old crane could pick up a object that a new crane couldn't but the differance was the new crane took into effect the distance away from the pin and amount of cable out plus the weight of the headache ball. plus all sorts of other things like the number of reeves in the line , the diameter of the line, effects of wind etc..
The older cranes counted on the operater to look all that up and do the calculations and then determine if it could pick the load.. Most older guys just picked stuff up and if the outriggers stayed on the ground they would lift it..
Look at the cable on an older crane. Often they are loaded with fishhooks, signs that the cable was at one point strectched beyond it's capacity. If you are smart don't ever let someoone do a pick that you would be responsible for if you see any fishhooks.
The reason crane prices are dropping is the lower rates used to be competitive.. If you can't make money with a crane why own it? That plus the delayed maintinance costs of some cranes is greater than the value of the crane.. I've seen estimates for replacing the swing bearing on a crane that would exceed the down payment on a new crane.. Gettin a older crane past it's annual can run tens of thousands of dollars.. Better to sell it and lease another..
and here I thought you just did all terrain forklifts....
very informative. nice post.
two man teams here in PA are very common for commercial work and quite rare for the truss setting that BossHog does.
carpenter in transition
frenchy et al
I am a DIY homeowner/old house unmuddler, etc., & I found the crane piece fascinating...Thanks!
Also thought the economics of the whole business to be interesting. There is so much I don't know...
Kate
We have been framing houses with cranes for over a decade, are first crane was a 1978 Drott GoDevil 10 ton with about 66' boom & jib. I think we bought in 1994 for about 18,000, less than a laborer would get in a year. Got the new used crane last week 1986 P&H C22 22 ton with 72' of boom and a 25' swing away lattice boom.Here are some pics.
Nice crane DWeckler!
I especially like the lifting ability at flat out.
How much did that beast set you back?
blue
We have been looking for a small rough terrain crane about a year and a half. Called on a few, looked at a few, decided it was time with all the rebuilding from the hurricanes. Thought all the work would start to drive up prices.So we bought this one it has about 3500 hrs and the guy would truck it to us total cost 50,000. We needed it for this one it has 18 douglas fir hammerbeam trusses that weigh about 5400 lbs each.
That looks like a great crane for the fifty big ones.
If I had only 50k and had to choose only one, I'd buy a forklift. That 5400 pounds is easy pickings for most forklifts. How far up and out do they have to go?
blue
That thing gives me wood.
(Yeah, I know... I got issues)
Dweckler,
I used to sell it's counterpoint, The Broderson. Terex has a couple that attempt to get into the market but Broderson still is the dominate player in that market.
Few homes are built using cranes because of the high labor involved with them.. You need an operator and someone to connect the load plus you need someone above to remove the load.. In addition working from them is extremely difficult. In that to be legal you must do a certified test pick every morning and anytime any maintinANCE IS PerFORMED ON THEM. Small carry decks and short boomed rough terrain cranes are limited in their use..
The insurance requirement and annual certification takes it's toll every year. Longer boomed rough terrain and truck cranes/ truck mounted cranes dominate the housing market.. with truck cranes/ truck mounted cranes geting the nod due to transportation difficulties with rough terrain cranes..
Frenchy,You mention performing a daily "test pic". I've never seen a truck crane do such a thing, at least that I can recall. Should all cranes this?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
a documented test pick is only required when people are going to be hoisted by the crane.. I'm, sorry I forget what the required amount of test weight is. I knew it when I passed my operators test but my mind is a blank,, errr. Go ahead and laugh! <G>
Frenchy, you're making me want to sell everything and go into cashiering at the local gas station.
blue
You'd look good in an orange apron. ;)
The homes I frame are usually over 10,000 sq ft unless we are framing a friends home.We run a three man crew and the crane is the laborer. The last house we framed I could barely reach the ridge with 66' of boom. The house we started last week is 12,000 ft on a crawl space. It has all 2x6 walls the shortest ones of which are 11' 6 3/4 . We had 3 units of 12' 2x6 studs in the master suite. The home has over 900' of overhangs, we cut every thing and fly it into place. I have not seen many all terrain forklifts on jobs, we have an abundance of cheap labor in the area "north Georgia " can you set materials inside of the wall lines or is every thing around the perimeter? Besides the ability to work from a platform what are some of the other benifits?We had the crane certified before we bought it, the crane is trucked job to job which helps on the insurance "it is almost cheaper to buy a new crane each year and let it sit then to insure it to drive on the road " it costs about $500 depending on the distance " we move it 4 or 5 times a year.My partner worked heavy and highway for 25 years, started out as a operator worked his way up to job super intendant then retired from it " a lot of stess on 1/2 billion $ jobs". He could not sit at home so we started framing for a national home builder got sick of the quality and worked are way into the top custom jobs in the area.Here are some pics of the current plan.
Frenchy about the line Few homes are built using cranes because of the high labor involved with them..
Most homes are built with a high amount of labor in my experience. Spoken like a true salesperson.
Good gracious! That's a very easy roof for such a large home.
I gotta get outa this state!
blue
The last last house I framed was 14/12 11,684 sq ft ,31 roof planes 8 dormers and 10 flaired roofs.The last plan I looked at was all 14/12 17,277 sq ft ,80 roof planes and 6 dormers.I was very happy to see this plan, cutting a roof like this will be a nice change.
DWelker, what are the rates for framing those monsters. Obviously there isn't a square foot factor, but I'm curious about how much a frame like (17,000 sf) that is going for in your area.
blue
I don't know if you caught my message about the abundance of cheap labor in my area or not. I will post a couple of pictures of the 17,000 sq ft plans. I bid the job at $109.540 or about $6.34 a foot. When I calculate the footage I included the total area finished or not, interior and exterior " area under porches" if it has a floor and a ceiling they are paying for it. I do not felt or housewrap nor do I set windows or doors, I don't do decks , cornice or sidings. I do not supply anything but tools, labor and lunch. The builder 'not one of my regulars but I was referred by another contractor " that I was under bid by $70,000 wanted to know if I had anything to add to my bid I said "good luck".The house I am framing now came in at $115.418 or about $8.93 a foot. It will likely go to around $10 as I am still receiving detail pages from the architect. I may get another $80,000 if I decide to do the beam work " not looking forward to spending the winter on top of a mountain". It is hard to make some people "builders and homeowners" why my number is higher when all they look at is the number.
The builder 'not one of my regulars but I was referred by another contractor " that I was under bid by $70,000 wanted to know if I had anything to add to my bid I said "good luck".
I like your style. Stick to your guns.... the calculator don't lie.
I am a fan of yours also. That post a couple of weeks ago about the propsal you submitted and the counter offer was awesome.What are some people thinking? I also think that your "biography of a carpenter" AKA You know who I am? I'm the guy you drive by in your air conditioned car and look at and say to yourself, "Dammm, you couldn't pay me enough to do that guy's job today". should be required LEARNING " not reading" by every contractor and customer.You are my HERO! In case some of you missed it here it is.
All right gang, I started this thread on a topic that vaguely resembles the current topic that the thread has morphed into. Still a good topic, but now that's it's changed a bit, I've got a bit more to say.
Particularly to the defensive overzealous DIY'er types.....
You know who I am? I'm the guy you drive by in your air conditioned car and look at and say to yourself, "Dammm, you couldn't pay me enough to do that guy's job today". Yep, that's me. And I'm out there doing that job everyday. I'm the guy who gets to stand under 2500 lb beams as the crane sets them to make sure they land where they're supposed to and don't kill somebody. I'm the guy who has to shovel three feet of snow off the lumber pile in the morning before you even hit the remote start button to warm up your car. I'm the guy who gets to work in 100 degree weather with a dewpoint of 70 in the summer and at or below 0 in the winter.... cuz both schedules and weather don't ever stop coming.
I'm the guy who's feet currently look like hamburger from being wrapped in two layers of socks and a pair of leather boots for 13 or 14 hours a day. I'm the 32 year old man who currently has a nice looking diaper rash from wearing a toolbelt in the heat and humidity 10 or 11 hours a day for 5 or six days a week. I've got hands that look about 20 years older than the rest of me. I've got shins with more scar tissue than skin. I've had a sunburn for about a month and a half now and plan to keep it for at least another month or two. I see a chiropractor twice a week and I've got two compressed disks in my back that have no plans on decompressing on their own in the near future.
And I wouldn't have it or want it any other way.
You give me a set of plans and I give you a detailed proposal on company letterhead. Not an estimate, not a bid, but the actual number you will need to write in your checkbook register should you make the right decision and hire me. Along with this proposal I will write you a letter noting any inconsistencies I've found on your plans so that they can be worked out before I start. Why? Cuz my sawzall makes an awful lot of money and you don't want to see it have to come out. Should you choose to have me build your house we will enter into a detailed construction agreement (aka contract) that protects both of us and gets everyone's expectations on the same page.
I will show up at your house on the previously agreed upon day with just under a quarter of a million dollars in tools and equipment to build your house in a safe, timely, professional manner. You will already have the papers in your hand that reassure you that the men and women working on your house under my watch are properly protected by worker's compensation won't expose you to any risk. You will already have the papers in hand that show the million and a half dollars of liability insurance I have on YOUR home. I will then be there every day the weather lets us until your house is completed. I will be there to hold your hand and answer your questions.... why? Because I can. Because I've been here before. Because there's not too many situations that can arrive in framing a house that I haven't already dealt with and conquered or have the resources to research and overcome.
And I'll do it all with a smile.
And yet you guys still go to Home Depot and buy yourself that Ryobi cordless combo pack, toss it in the back seat of your SUV and say, "Ain't nothing to it". You go and lay yourself a Pergo floor or frame in your basement in a climate controlled environment on your days off and all the sudden you think we're all crooks cuz this is just monkey business.
You're thinking what I do and what you've done are in the same ballpark, but I'm hear to tell you brothers and sisters.....
You ain't even playing the same sport.
I'm not lumping all DIY'ers into this, but a specific type. The type that watches these bonehead tv shows or attends a 1/2 hour Home Depot clinic and thinks they can build a house. The type that thinks cuz my hands are dirty I oughta be living in poverty. If this description doesn't fit you..... then I'm not talking about you..... so untie yer undies and relax.
But even worse than the overzealous DIY'er...... back to the original post of mine..... is a fellow contractor who doesn't place any value on what it is I do. That's just insulting. Someone wants to haggle a price a bit.... sure.... I'll play along. But rest assured... you beat me down on the price and I'm going to charge you for every bead of caulk and every nail I put into that frame. But even still... that's totally different than offering someone about 60% of the price they've taken the time to work up for you, and offering it in an arrogant "take it or leave it" type manner.
Edited 11/5/2005 5:48 am ET by DWeckler
C'mon now.... A hero ain't nothing but a sandwich. (I love that line). I didn't remember what post you were talking about, so I did a search.... now I remember LOL.
Wanna hear the punch line? The job that started that whole thread..... is the job I started last Friday. The guy who offered me 27K on a house I came in at 42K on. We came to an agreement where I knocked 3K off the job and eliminated the roofing, the little front porch, and a couple landings..... about $4000 in work. ;)
Some guys just have to feel like they got a 'deal'. I let 'em feel whatever they want.
I'm afraid I wouldn't know where to begin pricing a job the size of the ones you're tackling. I literally just tonight put together a proposal for a 6000 sq ft house and it came out to just over $72,000. I had to swallow hard and hit "send" on the fax machine before I got cold feet. That's the largest job I've ever priced.
I also priced out a 3500 sq foot addition for the same guy tonight. I didn't even want to bid it. The roof is so cut up that I'm not even sure I know how to frame it! It's got more broken hips than a nursing home. I had to price that one with a little time built in for OJT. I actually hope I don't get it. But I couldn't bid one plan and not the other from the same guy. Those roof plans that are all hips and valleys with maybe 2 commons covering a 1700 sqft footprint make me wanna cry. Who designs this stuff?
My point? Maybe I can give decent advice sometimes, but I find it gut-wrenching living up to it sometimes. That being said.... I've never regretted letting the calculator price my jobs, but I certainly have regretted letting my fear price jobs.
Cheap labor? YOu must be in the sunbelt
That 8.93 looks good, especially if you don't felt, paper, cornice, set windows etc.
It probably would be good doing all that!
Are you on slabs or basements?
blue
Mostly I frame on full basements "10' or 12'' but I am currlently framing on a 6" crawl, the last slab house I saw a plan for was about a year ago. I don't frame many slab houses because the concrete guys around here must not have any idea how to pour something flat.When we frame basements we set a height with the builders level and string the top of the walls to it.I sometimes have to cut jacks 3/4" different across the width of a double french door.That price is O.K. if you consider that I could put a add in the paper and have contractors lined up from here "North Atlanta" to somewhere near Washington D.C. if I said I was paying $3.50 a foot. Some people must just like the practice.
DWeckler,
Let me explain that I don't sell in your territory.. Thus my advice isn't intended to sell anything to you simply relating my experiance.
I've sold both cranes and Forklifts.. each has their place and each has their advocates.. The reason I recommend forklifts isn't because I can sell you one but because having sold them both I'm in an excellant position to offer advice..
With a crane, You do need an operator, a ground person to hook up the load and a person to unhook the load when it arrives. That is three people
A forklift can do the same job with one person..
In addition a Rough terrain crane isn't really rough trrain.. If you were to attempt to use a crane in the same places that rough terrain telehandelers worked it would be hopelessly stuck.. (Having helped pull a 30 ton RT {that I rented} from the bog behind a house with a couple of dozers I really do know what I'm talking about.)
There are many brands out there that offer 55 to 56 foot booms.. in addition for those really high picks You can add a jib for another 12 to 16 feet..
Around here that home and several much bigger would have been built using a telehandler, In fact on a project a couple of bays away from my house they built a 24 million dollar home with only one 42 foot telehandler.. First they built the core of the home and then worked their way around it.. House was soo big and complex that I would get lost in it. I knew I was in the basement, but I'd get turned around and head past the excersize room past the indor gun range and the indoor theater. Now these rooms were big enough that a pro basketball team would be able to play in them <G> four big boilers, six of the biggest electrical panels I've ever seen. a really neat computer system that would automatically turn on lights as you'd enter an area and turn them off as you'd leave.. (it would be really erie walking down a hallway and having lights come on in front of you and go out behind you)..
Several of the bedrooms were sooo embellished with Enkenbols carvings you's swear that the whole factory did nothing but turn out work for this house! The original roof was a nice archetecual shingle job and I heard it cost over $65,000 to do..
The owner and his trophy bride looked at it and had it removed and replaced with slate and copper to the tune of 1.1 million! Heck you should have seen his office.. My god, the president would have been jealous, They had 22 trim carpenters working full time for over 9 months.
Seriously man, you really NEED to start posting pics of your projects!! Those were cool pics you posted previously, but I would really like to see some more pics of the framing.
Nice work.
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