There is an interesting debate starting in one of our blogs on this subject. I’m interested in what you folks think. Check it out and comment on your preferred technique.
http://finehomebuilding.taunton.com/item/7915/crown-molding-mitering-vs-coping-which-do-you-do
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I do both - depends on how straight and square the corner is - built up and have already corrected - faster and cleaner for me to miter. Straight is more important to me than square - "sure I can cut two at 44-1/4".
Ceiling / wall a little wavy? Better to cope - I use that "hack" technique (that I first heard of here) with a 4-1/2" grinder and flap discs - gets a little messy.....
Jim
Cope. Always cope. Ever since I read about the angle grinder / sanding pad trick, coping is faster than mitering because saw setup isn't as tedious and the measuring isn't as rigorous.
Go get a $30 Ryobi angle grinder, a backer pad and some rough grit disks, find the Youtube video to learn how and then go to town.
I'm a weekend warrior and when my journeyman trim carpenter buddy stopped by, he laughed at the thought of trim carpentry with an angle grinder. After he looked up at my coped 4 piece built up crown in my octagonal parlor, he got his own angle grinder.
I swear, after you do you will never miter again. This debate is over.
Guys,
Thanks for your feedback. Would you mind posting your insights on the blog? Tucker and Chris are going to track it there and will weigh in on the comments. Chris is chomping at the bit to defend the miter. Rasher, feel free to do battle there. I know a few people who cherish their angle grinder when it comes to crown. I think Justin Fink is one of them...
I don't know who tucker and chris are, but they are free to fight it out.Fact is, some crown profiles are impossible to cope. There is no one right way all the time.
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What kind of crown is "impossible to cope"?_________________________________________________http://tinyurl.com/qbdue6
this comes up every time I or anyone else mentions it.When the profile has too large of a projection at top or bottom
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Someplace on the web their is a site that shows three examples of crown that does not lend itself to coping. I cope myself with a bosch saber saw and a fine (metal cutting blade) blade.I haven't run into those problem crown shapes as of yet.
mike
These are profiles that don't cope:
Thanks for that, Brian.As some else alluded to, a profile THAT complex would be better rendered by building it up anyway.
Here is one of those crowns and what happens when you try to cope it:
By the way, Brian, your video of grinder coping is what sealed the deal for me. I've been converted.
The grinder is not always practical with the dust it makes. The box fan and filter helps. Outside, with a tailwind, is best. ;o)
Bingo. That's what I'm talking about! I think that Collins video trying to explain using a copable profile was about 3 1/2 minutes long.All your post needed was two pics of an actual uncopable crown!AitchKay
You could cope the upper portion of that crown and miter the lower part that turns into a rat hole when coped. Using a combination of mitering and coping joints would be interesting.I looked at a Victorian this week that would involve joints that are partial miter and butt jointed. Interesting how things used to be done.
Yep. Kinda like those Gary Katz knife-cut miters on the bottom flat of his crown. Great, but I’ve never seen the need to go to that trouble for 3/16-1/4” of flat.Likewise, when coping 1/2” RE base, I cope only from the botom of the base up to where the RO dies into the top flat. I cut this line with the chop saw. As long as the line is crisp, and the workmanship good, I’m happy to stop at that point.But I like more copable profiles. That’s one reason I prefer 1/2”x3/4” shoe to 3/4” quarter round. You get a crisp cope that doesn’t just die out.AitchKay
And for floor-to-base, why would you use anything BUT proper shoe? (unless there's a gap you MUST cover up) I've seen a lot of 1/4 round used improperly as shoe and it looks SO wrong.
You're right, it looks SO wrong. Yet I've seen it specced by architects.Go figure.AitchKay
Yup, go figure. Being an archy means holding a license but doesn't guarantee good taste/style or practical know-how.You can spec. 1/4 round and still pass the exam.
Edited 6/14/2009 3:29 pm by kenhill3
I think Piffin already nailed this one but I'll add to it...Thanks to our friend, the Clam Clamp mogul, I actually can wrap my large noggin around this subject. The bottom line is, not every piece of crown is going to be cope-able. Picture a profile gauge with its feelers projecting horizontally out from the crown's profile as it would sit on the wall - makes for the same reverse profile as we cut for a cope. Anytime that a portion of the crown's profile rises above or drops below any of the horizontal lines produced by the profile gauge a problem arises. Coping this profile would cause the back-cut of the cope to break through the face of the crown. In some cases it can be pulled off, but we're talking about leaving a whisper-thin face on the crown itself without much back cut - not too durable and a PITA to fit in some cases.Jim Chestnut has an excellent video of this on his site... check it out.And for what it's worth, I cope every single time that I can. Nick
I have not worked with un-copeable crown as yet. But, yes I always cope. And, cope with a coping saw? I rarely use a saw. Since I learned to cope with the grinder (thanks, Basswood!) I will not be going back. I found the coping God!
I can't see how somethin' like that could have been milled in the first place.Anybody got a pic of this strange beast?_________________________________________________http://tinyurl.com/qbdue6
It would take offset heads or run it twice - one reversed.Wife just called dinner ready. I'll look up one later.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I can't see how somethin' like that could have been milled in the first place."
Think picture rail molding. Anything that has to be milled from multiple faces 'cause it turns back on itself will not be a good candidate for coping.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
"Jim Chestnut has an excellent video of this on his site... check it out."I wouldn't call it excellent. If you're going to go to the effort of making a video to explain the problem, you might as well track down a couple of scraps of un-copable crown.Instead, he used scraps of copable crown to demonstrate, tipping the profiles past horizontal.Since I know what the problem is, I understood his video. But it would have been so much clearer if he had used the right molding. Much more dramatic, too, since he could have gone ahead and coped it, and shown how awful it turned out.AitchKay
Okay...
However, without getting too finicky about things, Jim explains the problem and shows what can happen. For anyone who is even familiar with his website, chances are they've hung crown before. Chances are better that they cope their crown if they're watching a video on un-copeable crown. And chances are best that they'll get his point.
True, he could have gone out and gotten some scraps of a more un-copeable crown, but nonetheless he makes the point.
And for someone who posts this stuff for free on his website, I'm not going to complain...
But then again, I'm just sayin...
Nick
"And for someone who posts this stuff for free on his website, I'm not going to complain..."Well, he seems like a nice guy, but he's hardly being altruistic. He's pumping the Jim Chestnut brand, trying to sell more product by attracting traffic. And more power to him for doing so!But when I say, “I wouldn't call it excellent. If you're going to go to the effort of making a video to explain the problem, you might as well track down a couple of scraps of un-copable crown,” I’m making a reasonable critique. It’s NOT excellent. It’s marginally OK. Picking up a scrap of whatever’s lying around is what we do when we’re sitting on overturned drywall buckets drinking coffee. But if we’re saying, “Gosh Durn it all, anyway, let’s make a video about this!”, we take the time to track down the appropriate scraps.AitchKay
>>some crown profiles are impossible to cope. There is no one right way all the time.<<
I'm glad somebody else has found some of those profiles.
I thought it was just me. I feel better now.......
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Impossible to cope???
Next thing you'll be telling me that quarter sawed dowel is stronger than flat sawd dowel for closet rods.
Picture a profile that has a 3/4-circle bead projecting out from it, for instance.The cope would have to be C-shaped, with a mouth too small to snap over the bead without breaking.Of course, you could install the coped piece first, then insert the square-cut piece. Stick the dowel in the hole, as it were, instead of trying to snap the hole over the dowel.Theoretically possible. But, y'know, I think I'll miter that profile anyway.AitchKay
even more than that, which is mostly just an inconvenience. I was talking impossible, not simply hard top do.
When the bulb is larger or turns up or down, coping will leave a void someplace in the joint. some folks have just never seen that sort of crown.
It can be designed to be milled in 2-3 pieces to avoid that, but it doesn't always happen.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep. In the absence of a bar napkin or a couple of scraps of crown, I made it easy on myself by only talking about half of the problem.But I'll try to do the rest of it with words, too:With the molding I described, the bead of the square-cut piece would come straight out the back of that same detail on the coped piece, filling the quirk behind the bead.I have successfully coped moldings like this, but I don't think it's worth it.Here's how I did it:* Mark the square-cut piece to length. * With the saw set at 45º, miter that piece 1/8" long.* Cut the tip off square, at the length you marked, and install it, leaving the last few feet in-nailed for now.* Cope the second piece the best you can. This will mean coping the normal parts of the molding, and half-coping (mortising) the tricky profiles. That extra 1/8" of molding on the square-cut piece is all you need to be able to cope over it, and achieve the lap joint that us copers prefer.As I said, though, after doing that a couple of times, I miter 'em now.AitchKay
>>"Next thing you'll be telling me that quarter sawed dowel is stronger than flat sawd ....."No, dude, it's the rift-sawn dowel that's the better stuff.But, ya can't cope it.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
I stand corrected.
This subject has been covered SOOO thoroughly and in-depth in this forum. Do an advanced search.
I can't speak for the other guys, but feel free to cut-and-paste anything I've written.
And I spend enough time on BT. Last thing I need is a parallel universe so that I can spend twice as much time online.
So what's the story with these "blogs", and how are they different/better than BT?
AitchKay
Answer to the question of ‘What’s the deal with FHB blogs?’
Breaktime is an incredibly useful forum. It’s a great place to hang out and it’s a great place to discuss stuff and learn new stuff. However, for the casual information seeker, it’s not necessarily the best place to get answers on a specific topic.
Part of our job at Fine Homebuilding.com it to bring useful information up to the surface where people (who visit the website but who are not regular Breaktimers) can find it. The blogs are a good place for this.
The blogs do a couple of things for the editors as well. First, they shine a light on the issues that we think about as we work on articles, videos, and other content. Second, the comments provide us with valuable feedback as we shape our ideas and the ideas of others.
For those who are comfortable with the platform of Breaktime, great. Post, read, respond and have fun. That’s what it’s there for.
For those who want to participate in discussions that help shape the content of FineHomebuilding.com and Fine Homebuilding the magazine, we invite you to post your comments in the blogs. We only ask that comments are expressed respectfully. While Breaktime can be equated to the tailgate, the Blogs are a little more like the front porch.
Finally, we are still looking for bloggers. All of our contributors to the magazine and to the website have in common their desire to share information. Maybe writing an article is not for you but if you’d like to be more involved, maybe blogging is right for you. If so, take a look at our blogs, start commenting, and then send Robyn or me an email.
John Ross
Producerjross -- FHB Web
Thanks for the info. I'll keep you guys in mind.AitchKay
This thread is the first I've heard about "THEBLOGS"From your comments it sounds like you editors are getting out of them what previous editors came here to BT to get. I recall Andy E contacting me back about '01 or '02 after reading my postings here.So it seems curious to me that you would call this place the tailgate when the blogs are a brand new piece of chrome stuck on the site, when BT has long been the main engine of your online presence.Given that attitude, I now understand why so many problems are created here by the Taunton leadership. you think it is just a tailgate accessory.now I gotta go look at your new toy....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've read through and I am another one who has ran into stock that could not be coped.
I used the miter method. I do cope whenever possible though. I use a coping jig. Which is basically A couple of blocks cut 38 degrees or whatever degree the crown sets off of the wall nailed to a low cutting bench with a piece of rabbeted stock to hold the crown in place. This way when I am cutting I am looking down on the cut as it sets on the wall. It limits your back cut and really comes into play on difficult crowns. When I was doing lots of crown I noticed that basically as far as speed goes miter guys and cope guys are about the same. Job quality about the same. The miter guys hand back and forth for touch ups more and the copers spend more time at the bench. So as a rule of thumb if you choose to cope you should never miss one, which is where the jig with the pitch blocks comes into play.
Yeah, guys who cope with the molding lying flat often way over-backcut some sections, and under-cut others.I use a carpenter's vise opened up to the right angle to hold the crown as you describe. Way easier to visualize!AitchKay
I also like to use jigs to hold crown for coping (two jigs actually, so right and left copes both get worked on at the same end of the work station):
I usually cope on a low bench, bracing the crown at an angle against my leg, and holding it down with my left hand.. A sheetrock bench, milk crates, or spackle buckets are all about the right height for me. It may not be pretty, but it works.
I've been meaning to make some holding jigs like yours for years, but never remember when I have the down time.
Shep, having jigs hold the crown in that orientation sure makes visualizing the cope and cutting (or grinding) accurately easier.Certainly not a necessity, but nice.Your description of creative coping postures was fun to read though.Have a great day,Brian
If it is paint grade i miter it, stain grade i cope it.
Only once have I encountered crown that I could not cope.