I’m fairly good at installing crown mould, but a customer wants me to install in a room with a cathedral ceiling, and I’ve never done this. Any adivce on how I handle the multiple angles involved when the sloped part of the ceiling hits the horizontal?
thanks – Brad
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peruse Gary Katz's site. I believe he uses both blocks and sweeping mitres to turn that corner.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
thanks Calvin; just what I needed to see.
You'll like this forum. A great chance to help us learn.
And I'm 58.
And do this #### for a living.
Amazing what I don't know.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I got to do that very thing a couple of months ago and used the transition piece method from the Katz site (Calvin linked it for you).
Here is a pic I took of the transition:
There is a method for extrapolating the shape of the crown for the rake--which will be different than that for the level run--using some simple geometry, but it would require getting a custom crown cut for the rake. It's in a book I have from the 1830's and I can look it up for you if you want to go to thexpense of getting a custom moulding cut. It is a common problem on the crown moulding around the roofs on Greek Revival houses, where the crown on the eave fascia is plumb, but must miter perfrectly into the rake crown. The solution is in one of the Dover reprints of the Asher Benjamin books from around 1830.StevePS: Where I come from that crown in the basswood's picture is on upside down, but every time I watch one of the house flipping shows and they are doing a house in California, they put the crown on like that. Is this just a regional difference?
Many here at BT agree with you on the crown orientation. We tried the crown both ways and the customer liked it better "upside down." With the lighting in that house, the molding profile details disappeared when installed in the traditional manner.This install had many inside corners that I prefer to cope...and I do not think I could have coped them if the crown were flipped.
Yes, I can see where that double-beaded edge on the what would normally just be a cove would have been impossible to cope right-side up. That's one reason I love working on pre-victorian houses. Everything is paint grade. Impossible copes become posssible when you can use filler.Steve
I agree with you it is upside down. I always was taught that the cove part goes down which leaves that long curve to meet the ceiling. When you get into the crowns with lots of details the part wich looks heavier goes down and the side with the less details smoothly merges into the ceiling.
(Ok I read further down and I see why they did it that way)
Edited 10/8/2007 8:35 pm ET by precision
geez...stain grade too? you're braver than I!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
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Thanks Justin,Here is another pic of that ceiling that I took while laying down on the floor:
Basswood,
Congrats on the quality of the work. Just finished working on a house with a cathedral ceiling. The entire house was to recieve crown molding. . Not long before I had read Gary's article about it, so I said sure. I've hung a lot crown in my time and a lot of it stain grade. The rest of the house is stain-grade, but in the master bedroom ( where the cathedral ceiling is) they wanted it painted. At the time I didn't realize what a blessing that would be. It was a simple 2 piece affair but I sweated over those four corners more than anything else in the house- getting all the profiles to line up and transition corners to be plumb with both pieces of the crown took some time. The home owners are happy, but it wasn't my finest moment.
Now you have done it! It can be a big leap from knowing it can be done--to doing it.I was sweating that job too. I made it a little harder than it had to be by cutting the stuff a skosh long and springing it into place so the joints would be very tight. That oak was stiff, so it was tough to work with. Keep those customers happy.
thanks much; this is first time using the forum, and the replies were interesting. At least my install is going to be paint, not stain grade as yours. nice job
Thanks, always glad to help...sorry about hi-jacking your thread.BW
An explanation of the process of install the crown with similar profiles, but different sizes can be found here:http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Crown_Moulding/rakecrown.html
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
To my mind it's upside down, because it's based on the classical greek orders, and the greeks always put it with the ogee and filet at the top and the cove at the bottom.
Attached are a plate from the Dover reprint of Asher Benjamin's "Practice of Architecture" first published in 1839, and the accopanying text description of how to derive the corect profile for a rake moulding (the one in the middle) and a rake return (the one at the top) from a crown moulding.
I've used this method for an outside corner on exterior trim and it works nicely. Should be the same for an inside corner, but it requires two different moulding profiles to get a perfect mate.
Combine this with Joe's formula for cutting the mitre, and you are all set.
Steve
You might be correct in terms of the most popular classical crown with the Cyma Recta at the top. The crown, as I installed it has the Ogee or Cyma Reversa at the bottom (from Architectural Review):Cyma Recta
Cyma recta has a concave curve over a convex curve. It is essentially a cavetto over an ovolo and was traditionally used in Classical architecture in the cornice and architrave.Cyma Reversa
Cyma reversa, also called an Ogee, is the opposite of cyma recta; it has a convex curve over a concave curve. Like Cyma Recta, it was used in Classical architecture in the cornice or architrave of a building.We did hold it up with the Cyma Recta at the top and the other details at the bottom (prior to the install)...all details were obscured in shadow. As installed, the lines at the top of profile seem to "pop."If I did get it upside down, so did the millwork shop in their profile book...and the owners like it this way. So, for this customer, it is "correct."I would note, that most crown profiles that have the large Cyma Recta detail at the top, start with a small cove (cavetto = "little cave") at the bottom--as do most bed moldings and they end with the convex curve (ovolo = "egg") at the top. I viewed this crown as like a bed molding supporting the top of the cornice.With a 45* crown you can probably do either orientation and still fall within the classical president. With 38/52 the thinking has been done for you.BTW your picture is of a Roman (Tuscan) detail, not Greek...but close. ;o)
Hi Basswood,I have no quarrel with your installation. It looks great, and the craftsmanship is impeccable. And the client is happy, so all is good.I'm always fascinated by regional differences in architecture and building practices. I'm curious what part of the country you are working in, because I have seen the crown used like your example more often in the west. In fifteen years of working almost exclusively on Greek Revival houses in upstate New York, I must say I've never seen the cyma reversa employed at the top of a classical entablature on a period building. After reading your post I flipped through four different pattern books from the mid 19th century and found only one example where it was shown as part of a cornice without a full entablature beneath it, but I've not seen it in the field around here.Attached is another passage from the 1839 Benjamin text. Note the part which says "The cyma recta was always the finishing, or crown moulding of the Ionic and Corinthian orders as practised by the Grecians". I have several of the Asher Benjamin books, and it's interesting to read his articulation of how he evolved from using Roman mouldings (based on arcs of circles) during the Federal period to almost exclusively Greek forms (based on conic sections) after about 1835. We have a lot of Greek Revival here and very little Federal.Yes, the example I posted is Tuscan, which, along with the Composite order are the only orders of Roman origin. I only scanned that one in because it's the one Benjamin used to illustrate his method of extrapolating the rake and return mouldings. I've seen a fair noumber of Doric entablatures that will have a large ovolo or quirk ovolo as the crown, but have not seen a cyma reversa as a crown except in contemporary practice, and as I said, mostly where I've seen it used as such is on remodeling shows that are filmed out west.I have always had a devil of a time remembering which is the cyma recta and which is the cyma reversa. Now as a way of remembering, I will say to myself "the cyma reversa is the one where the curve is the reverse of what you would normally find on a Greek revival Crown"Steve
Edited 10/9/2007 8:22 am by mmoogie
I'm in rural SE Minnesota.The house where I installed the crown upside down is in a new neighborhood in Winona, MN. The house is modern blah style...no classic pedigree.I guess you could say the Cyma Reversa is so named because it is the exception. Like reverse gear in your car, seldom used, but can be handy to have.In a related matter, I do often see turned columns on Victorian homes here that look upside down to me (heavy end up & dainty end down)...one house has them alternating.Edit to add: Today I'm installing quarter-round...I hope I don't install it upside down ;o)
Edited 10/9/2007 9:30 am ET by basswood
I'm from Minneapolis originally. Been on the east coast for the better part of 27 years now, with the exception of a couple of years off and on. We have lots of pre-victorain housing stock out here. Also a lot of Italianate and other victorians. I know what you mean about the victorian upside-down columns. I've seen pictures of ancient Minoan columns that have really bulbous capitols on them, thick shafts at the top tapering down to about half as thick at the bottom. Just looks wayyyyy wrong. I guess that's one reason we don't see too many Minoan Revival houses.There certainly have been days when I've had difficulty getting the quarter-round on right-side up...Steve
Steve,I live in one of the very few pre-Victorian buildings in Minnesota (an 1850's Inn). Mine is a colonial revival. I still have a bunch to learn about classic architecture...could have done a better job with the historic fabric of my house.The local historical society just got a grant to do some work on the oldest church in Winona County and I think I will get to do some of the work. I'll start another thread about it.The 1/4-round job got bumped to Friday...so I installed some storm windows for a customer and worked on refinishing some doors that got flood damage instead.Cheers,Brian
Steve,Here is a Cyma Reversa molding employed on a house I worked on today. I call this a bed molding. I have this molding on my house too between the trim board at the top of the exterior walls and the soffit. Neither of these examples is really a crown, but I do often see small crown moldings (Cyma Recta) used instead of the bed molding.
> sloped part of the ceiling hits the horizontal?
That's not complicated - that's a fairly simple miter cut. Are you sure you don't mean where the ceiling hits the top or bottom walls?
I think this picture depicts best what he means:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=3FDE51C3-2A51-47C0-8E46-7DEC44B191AD&frames=no
I'm not sure what else "where sloped part of the ceiling hits the horizontal" could mean.
Ok. Thanks. I typically carve a curve to the bottom of the slanted piece. That cut works too.George Patterson
>>Are you sure you don't mean where the ceiling hits the top or bottom walls?<<If I was talking about the exterior it woulb be where the rake crown meets the eave crown.Inside I'm not sure what it would be called...the exterior rake crown would correlate to what I'm calling the sloped part of the ceiling, and the eave crown would correlate to what I'm calling the horizontal...I guess I could say it's the crown that runs parallel to the floor...Steve