*
Regarding HD lumber — one of the managers at the HD I frequent admitted to me something that I always suspected. On Fridays, they take all of the cull lumber accumulated during the week (whats left after everyone picks through the bundles) and they stack it on the racks. They know that the amateurs on the weekend will buy the crap off the top rather than sort through the pile. By Sunday, its all gone.
Pretty contrary to their “premium” advertisements.
Replies
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Interesting conversation.
< Obsolete Link >
*Interesting indeed.
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Andy,
View Image
© 1999-2000
"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
Aristotle
*Ron,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*View Image View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Blue, my hats off to you, some of these guys don't understand the site language in arguing.:)Gabe
*Andy,I agree completly with Joe,this person's posts should be removed. Not everyone will know that they are not posted by Gabe or Joe.Vince
*hey, vince.. who do you suppose that could be ?..posting anonymously too....hmmmmthe lurking phantom...
*Censorship is ok when it's on someone else's foot, 'eh ?
*The shadow knows.....b : )I'll bet Kathy B and Martha know as well...
*Luka,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Guys1. Can we start a new thread where all the BS I've read (about 70 of the 86 messages so far) can be posted and only use that thread for the name calling, etc?2. I enjoy this board but not to the extent I've seen in this thread.3. As for the original question, with metal studs and structural members, I don't have to worry about crowns, twists, bows, etc. It's the only way to go.Vince
*Andy, I thought that since the Dickey postings, it was agreed that cowardly nameless posts, specifically inserted to slander or claim to be someone else were to be removed from this board immediately.Gabe
*Gabe, you have to remember that I'm half Canadien. And we all know that Canadiens love to argue!!!blue
*Same thing here. Local guy has way better stuff than Lowes/HD. If the guys loading think some look a little screwy, they throw on a few extra for free to give you a bigger pile to pick from. They are more expensive than the big guys, but as I tell customers when it comes up...you pay less for cheaper lumber-be prepared to pay me more to make it right. I've seen this guy turn stuff away too. If more people bitched, the quality would go back up-at least better than it is now! Jeff
*Jeff, In our case it was exactly the opposite experience. I went to the local guy, requested #2 or better, and paid more per board than equivalent grade at the local chains. Most of what he sent WAS #2 (no better), but he also threw in stud grade, pretty useless except as blocking. I guess he thought he could get away with it because we are not contractors, so we can't affect his business significantly. At HD we got #2 and better for 5% less and we weren't even doing a large order where I'd expect to see some discounting. Admittedly, if you are looking for 2x4 you have to go through a lot of wood to find anything, but at least on that trip the 2x6, 2x8, and 2x10 we bought were in good shape. I know there are much better 'local' lumberyards in the next county, but this guy proves to me why the 'big boxes' have been so successful.
*Mike,I've got a 2x4 scrap that came from Lowes and is clearly stamped "SELECT".Rich Beckman
*rich... that is a grade stamp from a mill, right...?please pass the salt and pepper....
*The flames are out for now...thought I might slip in my warped stud thoughts....I have a home to frame in just a few weeks...just stopped in last night at the log home manufacturers and checked on there panel heights...They have made changes since the last one that I built...So now the walls are using precuts and are built to standard heights...headers have a sandwich of foam and are 11 1/4"...Mark talked to me about how well the panels fit together with there new design which was adopted from picking up an exec. from a closed panel home company...So Mark said that since they have switched to the mill they are presently using the SPF framing material has been near perfect...Very straight and cut right to length and squarely so as not to need to be cut again if needed at the length stocked...The wood looked as good as I have seen so hopefully not too much QC in handling...Back to the question...We try to use straight wood, and cull as we go...Never had to use wood so curved that we would build the wall with a crown in it...All of you using green fir have a different animal...What I have used was very straight when wet but could curl up into a ball if not used before it dryed and also could take off in a wall after drying too...Only use fir when in fir land which is when I work in Westchester and North Jersey...And we do like Mikey to repair studs that are out of alignment just before drywall goes up.near the stream, aj
*Aj, all the good drywall hangers check the alignment just before hanging and do the minor repairs. It takes them minutes to save more minutes. we've been using spf too. We get a very good grade but occasionlly get a bad batch. The last bad batch I got, I alerted the super before we were too far into it. He did nothing. I then alerted the head honcho builder the next day. he did nothing. I then alerted the lumber man. He did nothing.If they don't care, why should I?I did nothing. Later just before drywall, the super complained to me about the large number of severely crowned and twisted studs. I told him to take his complaints to God because he's the one that grew it.There are some builders that use select grade studs. It is possible to get a very good grade around here. I'll be glad to use those studs if the builders want to fork over the extra bucks. Most don't.I'm not losing any sleep over this issue.blue
*blue....for what framers are paid around here, I wouldn't expect them to do any more than you do....It also depends on type of home here...custom on Lake George with T&M changes by the dozen (expected) or tract homes in low, middle and high end developments....near the stream mostly building one at a time just North of the tracts, (during the tennis off-season)aj
*They don't pay any more for the "custom" around here. Tract smact, it's all the same. Now, if we start discussing ethnic groups....blue
*blue,Here there are only a few high end builders (on the lake that is)and there framing subs are paid more. They do not work for less in the tracts as they have a back log of work right now for years...On the other hand the tract guys are always going thru subs because it's hard for the subs to be efficient enough to make a buck at the going tract rates which in the past have been $2.oo a foot and even lower!...I here now it's a bit higher cause all are real busy...The big custom in a tract I sided last year was framed for around $4.00/ft and was around 8000 feet. The framer will never work for the builder again because of the unpaid for changes and the builder will never hire him because he asked for money for changes...Rediculous really because all of us including the PM thought this guy cut the most amazing roof ever witnessed...all true valleys and raftered...Zillions of dormers and roof changes including the fifty corners I keep mentioning in the hardieplank threads...near the stream about to be framing, siding and roofing a little ranch for $8.00 plus (tight!),aj
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As a 22 year lumberyard manager turned builder I have the privelage of experience in not only from the retailer's view but from the builder's perspective. I feel that one of the independent lumberyard industry's biggest faults is the lack of education to it's builder/professional clients. There is much mis-information about lumber/plywood grades and their applications being circulated. The big boxes utilize and capitalize on the consumer's lack of information by re-naming or fabricating new grades of "select" lumber for their mass marketing ploys.
The lumber retailer buys material from a broker or distribution yard, specifies grade [stud, 2&btr, std&btr, utility] and doesn't have a clue what the material will look like until the semi or railcar is spotted at the lumberyard. It isn't like the lumber dealer calls a broker and says, "Hey Irene, you been sendin' me too much good lumber, mix in some crooked stuff with lots of spike knots, bark beetles and mildew". The big boxes definately do have an advantage in buying power and can afford to sell below or at cost on pre-cuts , sheathing, and other commodities. Local yards need to educate not only the pro's but their employees and consumers, too. Is the local lumberyard going the way of the family farm, ma & pa grocers, downtowns, hardware stores, the Russian Space Station?
*
Can we all agree on one thing, we all want straight walls..
How you get them, doent really matter
If you use better lumber, crown, cull, straighten, or it leave it to the drywallers.
Personally I buy good lumber, pull the nastier,frame randomly, and spend less than an hour cutting and straighten.
david
*Agreed David. The results that you achieve fall far short of perfection but well into the acceptable range. blue
*you lose your bet bud.
*
We always crown studs laying up with corners nailed together with opposing bends to make the corners straight. Same with door jacks. We end up with walls that bow out when stringlined so we install fireblocking or wanscot blocking or countertop blocking by a string where it matters. The house we are getting ready to frame is way big huge and a modern style, hard and shiny. We are going to use engineered studs. The Peter Principal is setting in.
Have mercy....
*
I'm curious how many of you crown your studs before you build your walls. It seems to be fairly popular around here, but not everyone does it.
Just curious............
*Old habit that I can't seem to loose. Can't pick up a lenght of lumber without checking the crown.Gabe
*Hi Ron, Gabe,Sure wish that habit would spread (S).Hired a new guy a few months back - "experienced" guy, you know the ones.Anyway, first week or so we're framing a roof ... 2x12's about 20' long ... not real cheap. I lay out the pattern on one of the rafters and tell him to mark and cut the rest.Crown? What's a crown? Lucky for me I looked over and noticed after he had only cut about three of 'em ....To be honest, though - I only look at crown in studs when I'm laying them out on the deck and one looks really obvious. And the guy I mentioned above got real attentive after that, so I guess it's all good.yours,Geo.
*We crown studs for exterior walls and set the crown to the outside. Always have. For interior walls, we just try to get the crown all to one side. If the crown is that bad, it goes in the fireblock pile. It seems like the fireblock pile gets bigger all the time. For plate stock, we cull through to find the least crown and double plate with the crown going the other direction. Wishfull thinking. We always crown joist and rafters. I thought everybody did.Ed. Williams
*DittoTerry
*The great majority of lumber we use is S-GRN. Lots of moisture content. I have noticed that whether we crown them or not they are going to do strange gyrations as they dry. The hotter the weather the worse this is. Mostly we throw out the real bad ones and just lay them down as they come off the pile. At the end before the electricians come in we use Makita planers and cardboard furring strips to align the walls. If a real bad stud is found it is replaced. I almost always use TJI products for floor joists and beams so crowning is not an issue. For conventional roofs we always crown our rafters and ceiling joists and toss the bad ones out for blocking, etc.
*Ron, remember your post about the auction site with the "built from scrap" studs? These guys? I emailed them 3 times about these, never got a reply. Did you ever find any further info about them? Sure would like to see one & a retail price..don't know what 6 truckloads in New Jersey would be good for, but they still look interesting. Joe H
*crown 'em.
*Who has to crown them anymore? Haven't ya seen the TV ads for Lowes and Home Depot. Why they stock only the straightest lumber......must pick thru stock piles from around the world.....and deliver only the best to their stores. Has to be true....saw it on TV! I was picking up a few studs a while back.....only 10 or so....so I thought I'd be safe running to Lowes and grabbing them. When will I ever learn??? After about half an hour of picking(remember I went there to save time!) and laying the worst of them on the floor so I could dig down to the bottom.....a manager walks by and looks at the pile on the floor....then gives me a dirty look! Kinda pissed me off a little so I ask him where the "commercial stock" is. He points to the "commercial contractors check-out" and I say no....I mean commercial like "TV Commercial"! I came here for the straight stuff!.... I know you have to employ the handicapped, but did ya have to let the blind guy grade the lumber!....he didn't seem to find that funny.....but I felt better...Jeff
*Damnit Jeff,You know as well as I do all lumber starts off straight, the only reason that we can't find any at the lumber store is because of the delivery problems in this country with the high price of oil.It's all delivered deck cargo on a submarine.Didn't ya know that?????Gabe
*I'm a crownin' fool...Hey, I should use that in a song.
*I'm another crowning fool. On premium westeren studs we usually end up with 30-50 studs culled out of a bundle (312). On eastern 70-100 per bundle. We have culled more, up to 50%. As I cull them, I crown them and mark them. We usually let 1 pretty discriminating man do this job for consistency. I think it makes for a straighter wall and better craftsmanship.
*Oops. This thread isn't *at all* what I thought it was about. Rose
*(LOL, Rose. You one funny yet classy lady)Hey all,OK so I'm new around here and I don't wanna come off like a total jerk, but ...I wouldn't mind some reasoning on this one. Seriously. No offense intended.I crown my rafters and joisting 'cause, you know - under load gravity works against the crown.But why crown studs? Under load, the crown isn't really affected in any direction to any appreciable amount. Any stud that's obvious, I flip it, as I mentioned before.I get it that it's a habit; that it's neat and orderly and sufficiently anal to please just about any carpenter, even us framing hacks (S) - but anybody got a real reason? I mean, any stud that really is sticking outside of the plane of the wall ought to become blocking....just havin' a beer, and wondering ...George
*Here in MI, Lowes calls there lumber "select". I haven't figured out what it was selected from yet. Once in a while Home Depot will have a load of doug fir studs at the same price as SPF.
*Yeah Jeff and some times that same guy who grades must deliver to. And like others I thought that crowning was standard fare, I do it but some of these new guys they don't know sh#t from shinola. You can't assume they know the most basic task. Makes me go huh? Skip
*disappointing, isn't it? I was hoping to see....ah well. Next time! ;-)
*George,The reason I always do it (crown wall studs) is to keep the wall straight (on the same plane). Look down a wall sometime,did you ever try to hang a kitchen on a wall that goes in and out.Vince
*Yeesh - Is that all you Women ever think about ?
*Yeah, it's so the trim and cabinet guys luv ya. Extra points if you keep the very straightest studs for the kitchen walls. Pop some blocking in there, and I'm yours, body and soul.
*George, it's all for the finish later on. Let's say you've got little crown, say 1/4" over 8'. So you put one up with the crown in, the other with the crown out next to each other, and unless it's in a dark corner, that bow will be noticeable in a room when the drywall is done. And once you get some semi-gloss on it, it'll stand out when the lights are on or the sun hits it. And hanging cabinets on a wall like that is TOUGH.
*we don't crown studs , just rafters and joists..but we do a visual on every piece of lumber in the pile before it's cut.. and we cull the bad guys..if the bend is slight and uniform it's ok.. it's neighbors and the sheathing will pull it into alignment ..a lot of the remodeling we do.. i cull in the lumber yard as i'm loading....IF ...if we crown, i crown the stud with crown in.. because i can fix crown-in easier than crown-out..a lot of the poster here have talked about shimming and planing before boarding..after framing, we check the wall before the rough-in.. and fix any bad-boys....but we don't do shimming and planing........we cut..push and scab (well, ok .. we'll shim if we didn't get it crown-in)
*Well, you guys can badmouth HD all you want, I'm still going to buy my lumber there. Bought materials recently at our local lumber store, paid for #2 or better, got junk. Of course, since we did a lot of the work over the weekend, when that guy is CLOSED, we were stuck with what he sent us. A quick trip to HD, which was OPEN, and we got some great stock for less money.
*yes.
*Crowning goodBB
*Yo, Bucksnort!While the other guys' replies were very insightful and I'm really truly grateful to them because I can see that it was certainly worth the time of me speaking up ... It wasn't until I got to your post that I completely grasped the fullness of the entire concept.Cool, dude! Surf's up - gotta go!Geo.
*I don't crown engineered lumber- everthing else gets crowned. I build almost everything now with fingerjointed studs and I-joists- saves time- no call backs.
*Great stock for less money.....there's a first time for everything! That comming from someone that's finds himself in HD/Lowes on evenings and weekends! Next time tell the lumber yard, #2 doesn't stand for Seconds! Last time they musta been confused! If the load is crappy, send it back. Still having better luck with the local guy. Jeff
*yes crown studs pitch the bad ones or try to coax them straight by nailing them against each other alternating crowns. Must have cabinet, mirror and especially tile walls nice and flat for builders out here. Also try to crown top and doouble plates in when plating walls so that it is easier to line them up, seeing as it is always easier to push them oout then pull them in.my two sensejim
*Always crown them.Exterior walls, save the straightest for kings and jacks (trimmers).Interior walls, "what they said"...straight ones for kitchen and bath (cabinet and tile) walls, and also for interior door kings and jacks.Crown all others the same, I lay them crown up when framing on a platform so they don't rock around when nailing to the plates.
*Amy & Jeff - Keep in mind that lumberyards (and HD) have limited control over the quality of lumber they get. We sometimes get bad bunks of lumber from mills that have been sending good lumber for years. Also keep in mind that most people come in just looking for the cheapest lumber - they all say they're willing to pay for quality, but they won't. That puts pressure on mills and lumberyards to produce the cheapest lumber they possibly can.
*Regarding HD lumber -- one of the managers at the HD I frequent admitted to me something that I always suspected. On Fridays, they take all of the cull lumber accumulated during the week (whats left after everyone picks through the bundles) and they stack it on the racks. They know that the amateurs on the weekend will buy the crap off the top rather than sort through the pile. By Sunday, its all gone.Pretty contrary to their "premium" advertisements.
*I think the independent yards in this area generally, grade for grade, better lumber than the big box stores. I once saw a lumberyard owner decline a whole load ...sent it back. I think everyone is under the gun ......contractor's getting the best price, independent yards competing with the big box stores, graders trying to get max yield from a log and the demand; it has a downward effect on lumber quality......remember some years ago returning some #2 pine ......the knots kept falling out ...was told good naturedly that "the holes were for the water pipes to go through". I think we've all had days where we wonder if the mill grader came to work wearing RayBans and using a white cane.
*interesting that someone posted the big box as advertising that it's lumber was ((select))...[for those of you who already know this, have patience.. this is for those who don't ..which usually includes the person waiting on you ]that's H-Y-P-E.. and should be held accountable by the lumber grading jurisdictions..SELECT is a a lumber grade..so go to that store and ask for some of the select.. when they lead you over to the stack.. check out the grade stamp that is on every piece... it ain't gonna say SELECT.. it's gonna say STUD, or CONST, or #1.. but if it does say select....please post the results so i can eat my hat....all lumber is graded at the mill and stamped with the grade... it is all graded by rules published by the grading agency having jurisdiction in the mill's area.. if you order #1 & 2 you should get it.. if you order STUD, you should get it..if you order SELECT STRUCTURAL.........you still have to cull.. because it's lumber..and that is just the way it is.....
*If you already "...do a visual..." on every stud, what more would it take to mark it for crown and create a uniform plane, like Vince said? If you have 1/4" crown in a stud, you're gonna use it, right? But if you have 1/4" going out on studs "a" and "c", and that same 1/4" crowning in on stud "b", you have a 1/2" hollow in 32" - I don't think that's good for anyone involved, and it's simple enough to avoid - just a matter of getting in the habit. I still check with a straight edge Mike, but I bet you'd do a lot less "....we cut..push and scab (well, ok .. we'll shim if we didn't get it crown-in)" if you crowned them all the same in the beginning.
*nah...now you're building a bow into your walls,..better to get rid of the bad boys and let the rest even each other out..i can get rid of highs and lows.. but why build a crown into the whole wall..?
*Are we all watching the same comercials but our ears are hearing what? HD advertises premium lumber which is their term...They say it is number two that has been more carfully graded to a HD higher standard...They aren't telling lies but they sure are marketing and competing at the highest level they know how to...And they are in business to make a profit and do have to work with the market just like the rest of us do right?near the trickle and glad their are HDs for late night pick ups,aj
*aj.. ya lost me.. (no compass.. what can i say ?)so does HD offer #2 that isn't #2 or is it just some of that pretty KD stuff that goes SPROING.. when you get it outside ?marketing is marketing,.. and lies are lies..do you think they're repackaging ?do you think they've got some grader marking #2 and then it goes to a special grader who says.. this is the HD #2?nah... it's just that same ol, same ol.. course i could be wrong... and i'll eat crow...hah, hah, hah... now over heah , buoys & gulls is the HD #2... hah, hah, hahsnake oil is still snake oil... and i'm glad they're open late too !PULEEZE, gimme the grade stamp, mill #, & species...hah, hah, hah
*Thats the way I see it too Jim.
*Mike...hahahahahahahahahha yea haa...just relaying HD's comercials...not saying that I need to be convinced...hahahhahahahhahohohohohohhohehehehehehehhahahahahahlaughing with my Crazy Mike buddy, near the fellow goofball,aj
*Mike is right on. Why is building a crown into a wall better than building a bow. If the materials that you are using is so crowned that you need to crown it, you need a better supplier. Maybe I'm spoiled but I rarely find a stud that isn't suitable, maybe one or two each house. The osb sheathing will certainly plane out a lot of the 1/4" crowns. If you have them all crowned one way, you guarantee that the planing will not take place. The issue of high being next to low crowns is a little misleading. Yes, there theoretically is a half inch gap, but the board hangers are also supposed to be professional. If I'm hanging, I nail the 1/4" high crowns, and float the low crowns, relying on the glue that will shim 3/8". Before I hang the rock, I'm already going to see the really bad situations and rectify them with my boogerin' bag of tricks.You guys are deceiving yourselves into thinking that you are creating the perfect plane. By the time the stock drys out, and twists, bows, warps and generally does whatever the hell it wants to, it will need a little more attention than crowning all one way.Please, if you ever frame on for me, let randomness rule!Culling the rockers,blue
*Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree this time. I'd rather have a consistant 1/4" bow in the vertical plane than an irregular horizontal 1/4-1/2" jog every other stud. Floatin' rock doesn't pass nailing inspection here in Western Washington. And I've seen some mighty ugly siding that follows the studs in and out, right about eye level on the outside too. Work for me, I'll teach you once; catch you not crownin' them again, we're gonna have a little talk. Different strokes for different folks.
*This is the last and final time I will bring this up and you knot heads can ignore it or not-Finger jointed studs are the way to go- less than a dime a piece more than conventional- accepted by every major code- straight- STRAIGHT- no culling, no crowning- no lost time - no kidding. No nail pops in six years using these studs...siding looks great-interiors look great- and oh yeah- they save trees...
*> IF ...if we crown, i crown the stud with crown in.. because i can fix crown-in easier than crown-out..Mike,You've confused me. If it's crown in on this side of the wall, isn't it crown out on the other side?Rich Beckman
*the other side has sheathing on it...if you get a stud bowed in.. you take a saw.. cut it 90% thru.. push it to straight and nail a scab to the side to keep it there..if it's bowed out.. the cut is harder...and the pull is harder... but it's the same cure.. sure is easier then.. than trying to straighten it out after the rock is up and skim-coated....some of the west coast framers have described one of the steps in their procedure is to [shim and plane]..before handing over to the rockers...they do a walk thru with straight edges, power planes and shim-stock... straigten it all out before the drywall gets hung..we do the same thing... fix the ones that got by us.. or that moved after they dryed out.....on partitions... it don't make no matter... cut, straighten , and scab....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*I think mebbe he's writing about exterior walls in that "fer instance."Mebbe not.
*Jim, right on!Just the act of crowning is an opportunity to sort the bad ones.Get into the habit of looking down a piece of lumber and the quality of your work will improve.Blue, good thing you have lots of work where people don't give a damn about quality, you'd never work on my sites. Doing it right doesn't take more time it that's less time to do it only once. Pity the finish guys that have to follow anyone who slaps em up.Gabe
*Timberstrand engineered studs = no crown. So far no nailing problems, just expense. But yard lumber quality is worse every year - agreed? Will engineered regurgiwood eventually take over the market? If so this discussion will be moot point, won't it?("I can remember the days when we used to have to, what was it called, crown? ...")Jeff
*Whoa!, Gabe ...THAT sure borders on the slanderous .... or maybe I'm just taking it personally as one of those that doesn't crown studs, as a general rule ...>>Get into the habit of looking down a piece of lumber and the quality of your work will improve<<OH ... maybe that's why I don't crown 'em ... I ain't puttin' crap in there to begin with ... can eyeball every one of 'em from the deck ... any that catch my eye get picked up and studied further (for a second) to determine if or how I'll fit it in, or else its blocking or bracing.I'd worry about all this crap if it weren't for the fact that Building Inspectors, Engineers, other G.C.'s, *and* my cabinet guy (a real perfectionist) all tell me how excellent my framing is. ( I guess compared to others?) Of course, it helps that I do custom jobs for individual owners and not production tract framing bid piece-work by the square foot.Like some here have implied, your studs are gonna do more moving before you get 'em in the dry (and after) than they probably will on that damn pile you pulled 'em from.No worries. If you like to crown your studs - by all means do so. Put it doesn't assure one of quality framing, in and of itself. Too many other factors.Doin' it so's it gets done, well. Culling the rockers like Blue ...Geo.
*George...thanks for posting in blues Defense as I can't believe Gabe would take a shot a blue!....Andy...Are you sure we need the Gabe's on this board just to show the general public there are Gabe's in our midst?near the stream watching yet another debasement of one of our best,aj
*George, are you saying that you can crown them from the ground?Bottom line is this....If we were all handling nitro, which one would you rather have working beside you? Someone who has careful working habits or someone who skips a step or two to get home earlier?What I said stands...You don't save a nickel of time by not being careful. You actually cost time for others. What I say is facts. I don't keep carpenters that put hurry in front of quality. Gabe
*AJ If you don't like frank discussions, find another board. Blue can defend himself, doesn't need your two cents. Andy doesn't need your two cents either, didn't get where he is by taking your advice. In case you haven't noticed, the job of god is taken.Flying above youGabe
*hey, gabe.... knock it off.... i personally examine every stick i handle.. and so do my guys..they and i crown every joist and rafter.. always have .. always will..every stud, shoe and plate gets examined ,, the bad ones get culled,, or the bad parts get cut out...we just don't crown studs.. if they're good enough to get nailed into the wall.. they go in as they come off the stack...the culls are either going back for credit or getting cut into crips and blocking..now stop being so disrespectful of your elders... hah, hah, hah
*Gabe...you think I'm attacking you when I am just defending myself and people I do respect highly like blue...I lost respect for you long ago(do only to your endless attacks on posters) but have to deal with you all thru this board...We all know you think you are a god and that you think you fly above me and most everyone on the planet...That's fine for you to feel in your mind and we all on course feel how we feel regardless...The part of your posts that often get me (and many others (including many who just run from controversy)), is the extra attack on the messenger. There is no need to cut blue down is there?...You could for once just state what you do and point out what you see wrong with another way with out debasing the person...I know it's not your style...It is my style to not sit back and see a friend poked by the number one bully of breaktime...Gabe, you stopped posting here for a while and it got pretty boring but not anymore...In the last few months of posting, you have managed to single-handedly attack, debase, and part company with most of the board. And I'm sure you are proud of that...You're now suggesting as usual that all of us that do not concur with your behavior should leave the board...Then who would you post to Gabe...yourself? There's a song with a repeating verse that comes to mind when you go on attack mode...I wouldn't wanta be like you....Gabe...we are all different...That's the main strength of the USA...And learning to appreciate others for who they are is more important than crowning studs isn't it? Flying below god, near the stream,ajI must also point out that I think Joe and Mike have been the most gentlemenly I have ever seen them of late and I feel this board is better because of it and all polite behavior...Thanks you two as both of you should also know by now your skills and knowledge shared on this board are highly appreciated by me and most others it appears.A note to Gabe (and the board)...post your response as I know you will need to, to show your superiority and I promise to take the rest of our differences to email or at least to...no arm no leg jokes!...Lastly...I do think your trade opinions are very worthy and that you do have much that is worth sharing...if posted with just a few less attacks on others methods that you differ with...I feel politeness counts number one in person, same on this board...
*Mr AJ:Hey please don't try to censor Mr Martel. Like all of us, including you, Gabe displays some untactful moments. But his posts are worthwhile reading most of the time. That is about the same as most of the other posters, they are worth reading most of the time.A comment, not directed necessarily at you sir: I have noticed over the past few months that this Board has changed its' flavor from being a general Q&A Board to a Club Board. Sure it is nice to have the familiarity of being a "Breaktimer" but that shouldn't override the healthy discussion of differing methods and opinions. Maybe this change of flavor is like changing from vanilla to strawberry and is a matter of personal taste. But, for me, I prefer vanilla.
*Fred...I'll eat the vanilla with ya and also eat strawberry with others...the board is open to all...And Mr. Martel is not going to be censored by me...But I have an opinion that politeness is worth having here...And joking is great too if the other knows!...I am direct in pointing out my views often and I like the jokes...The dwarf tossing all came to a head thru one of my threads right?!...Anyhoot...My preference is blue and the new Joe and the semi civil but hilarious Mike...and your post is super civil too!...Glad to share the board with you and other jockular civilians!!!respecting differing opinions, near the stream,aj
*Hi Mike,I think you missed the original point that I was making because the focus of the discussion switched to the installion the crown on walls etc.What I do is in the handling of the wood itself, I automatically check the piece for the crown and I automatically put it upwards on everything that I do. It's a habit. Because I do it without thinking it's done in a micro second, so no time lost.What I said is that if you do that, whether or not you are positioning the crown up, you have automatically inspected the wood for all defects and you can sort to your own standards.What I have found, GENERALLY, is that those carpenters that look at their lumber prior to installing will install fewer propellars than those carpenters who blindly install anything they grab.I don't think anyone can argue against this.I tend to overlook the regional aspect of doing our work as well. Some areas don't have the same quality of wood as others. Anyways, like you, I am what I is....Gabe
*Oh lord AJ,Are you still pissed off that I exposed your buddy FreddyL for being a fool?Fred didn't have the balls or integrity to stay, now get over it AJ.You don't speak for anyone other than yourself. Why can't you live with that?Got work to do,Chat LaterGabe
*Sorry to jump in late. When I was working at HD, in orientation, one of the managers was talking about deliveries, and how lumber, building materials, etc. was the biggest chunk of deliveries. Well, he asked if anyone had quetions, and like a fool I spoke up. I said, "Based on past experiences, when I order lumber I get crap. What do you do when you make a delivery and the customer doesn't like what's been pulled?" The manager gave me a dirty look, said HD only stocks the best, yadda yadda, and that type of occurence is very rare. He promptly left the room and I knew not to order HD lumber, unless I picked it myself...And that's coming from a guy who likes HD! (I know, Boo! Hiss!)
*Ajerk,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*So your post is the way I and all should post to be respected and part of this board?...Maybe you two are in the majority...If so then I'm the jerk for sure!Spinning on Joe's spit again!...near the stream,aj
*Ajerk,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Where did AJ mention you?Later. LJ (no relation)
*Fusco/Aristotle...it's hard to pay attention as ya got the spit spinning so damn fast!The jerk on the spit whippin to a blurr!@ajgonna have ta dive in the stream soon and cool my jets!
*Little Joe...I tried to compliment him as I used him as an example to Gabe, but I think since this jerk is spinning on a spit at a thousand rpm, he took it as an insult or such...spinning near the flames still rare though a little over seared on the outside!ajglad the stream's nearby and for my Wednesday night Vball and beer!
*Ajerk,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Gabe, i think it's long be determined that we wouldn't work together. Thanks for the invite however.I did stick a straighedge up against a few walls today.No problems. I gotta believe we have better lumber.Sorry, there are some things in life that needn't be worried about. My wife worries about everything. I worry about nothing.blue
*Doug, i've never seen any of those for sale around here. I've also never seen wavy siding. I think that's proof enough.blue
*Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen,Peace.Love,Harmony.Ahh the loving sounds of breaktime...blue
*I'm with Blue - I intended to start an intelligent discussion about something which some builders do and others don't. I was curious about how many of you did it. But you've twisted this into just another series of unnecessary personal attacks. I don't appreciate "my" thread being screwed up in this way. Let go of your egos and get on with life.
*Jim, thanks for respectfully disagreeing. First, floating rock is only floating while the glue is in a liquid state. After that, the glue is effectively shimming spaces up to and including 3/8". Those are the specs on the glue literature. Experience will show you that the 3/8" can be strectched a little wider, with a proportionate loss of strength. Loss of strength in a wall application is rarely a problem. Around here, the board is hung horizontally and only nailed in the tapered edge area. It is very easy to spot the highs and lows on the board edges if you are horizontally hanging. The hanger nails the high spots tight, and gently nails the low spots. That same system is employed when the hangers hang board on your crowned walls. Unless you jack plane every stick, you will have variations from stud to stud. You will also have variations in joist depths, truss alighnments and in every aspect of framing. Skilled hangers make the necessary adjustments using aforementioned techniques. It's called craftsmanship. Unskilled hangers bang every nail tight. They are not skilled. I would welcome every one of you to walk through a finished house that I have roughed and ask you to point out the walls that are not properly finished and pleasing to the eye. I will bet you any amount that every one is twice as flat as any wet plaster job that I can remember. The walls look good, the trim is straight and everything is up to code.Gabe takes delight in claiming that I build trash and that the buyers don't care. I can tell you that many buyers are extremely finnicky, especially when they are buying their third new house and know what to look for. I am beginning to think that most of you have very poor lumber. I've heard talk of people falling through osb, and badly crowned studs, etc. Around here, there is one supplier that has all that bad stuff and I rarely work for builders that use it. They pay more for me, and they pay more for the lumber. Jim, we don't have nail inspections. And there is never a good excuse for wavy exterior vinyl siding because it also is hung, not nailed tight. We install a lot of hardiplank and it would telegraph wavy walls. They just aren't there however. Don't bother threatening me if I work for you Jim. I ain't gonna crown them no matter what! I came here looking and I leave here looking!blue
*Two posters sat streamside and chattingFull of bilious, vengeful mad-hattingBefore long they tookA spill in Jack's brookTheir absence caused no eye a batting.
*Yeah Ron, gabe started it! He enjoys being mean to me. Only problem is that I don't care. I'm very secure in my methods.Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! I told on you Gabe!baby blue
*Blue - I hope you realize I didn't mean YOU when I said "...you work for me..." that was poorly phrased, I meant "...if someone comes to work for me..." and I certainly take you at your word that your framing is straight. All I'm saying is that mine is straighter when I crown my studs, than when I don't. Like I said, different strokes for different folks.It must be the moon or something.
*I noticed early on in Blue's "Boogering with the Blue" that he had some damn nice looking lumber. His comments regarding the lack of cut offs to work with sounds to me like he doesn't have a big pile of culls to use for blocking ect. Must be nice to not have to pick your studs out of what could be the fire wood pile if it wasn't so wet? Joe H