Hi all,
I’ve got two different low-slope roofs I’m dealing with over the next few weeks and not having done much of it other than a couple of tiny portico roofs in EPDM, I’m wondering what’s being used these days.
The first roof is a straight-forward tear-off and re-roof of half-lapped roll roofing. There is a small parapet wall on one side of the roof only. An 8/12 pitch roof blends into it from above, which I will be re-roofing with asphalt shingles. The lumber yards are trying to sell me on self-adhering stuff for the low-slope section, one product is a fully-adhered single-ply elastomeric, and another is a half-lap (double ply) product. Any one have any thoughts on these systems vs. EPDM? I’m suspicious of peel and stick, but on the other hand, ever try and pull off old ice and water shield?
If I go with EPDM, what’s the proper way to detail where the steeper asphalt roof overlaps the low-slope section?
The other roof I’m dealing with is a flat-roofed Italianate Victorian wing addition on a Greek revival house with 8/12 pitch feeding into it from above. The flat section has a parapet on 3 sides and it all funnels out a 6-foot section that is 180 degrees from the direction the pitched roof feeds in from. It has a torch-down membrane on it that appears to be in pretty good shape in the field with tight seams, but the parapet details are pretty poorly sealed with big globs of roofers cement and gaping in some spots. It’s been leaking at a vent pipe in the flat section that was just goobered up with flashing cement, which I’ll be eliminating.
What can I use to seal the hole where the vent pipe was, and what can I use to seal the gaping bits? I’ve had one consultant tell me to use a peel-and-stick patch over the vent hole, and coat the whole roof with an aluminum fibre coat for UV protection, but he is a sales rep for the company that sells both products. What say y’all?
Let’s see if I can get pictures up for this second one…unfortunately I only have ground-level shots just now.
Steve Zerby
Edited 10/1/2007 11:24 pm by mmoogie
Edited 10/1/2007 11:24 pm by mmoogie
Replies
Greetings m,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.
Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
thanks for the bump rez. Things sure fall off the recent list fast nowadays. It's been years really since I've spent much time here, and in the bad old days, the volume was a lot lower and stuff stayed higher on list longer...
ya, saw yer post was from last week.
Don't know if it actually got posted here on that day tho' as sometimes, particularly with some new posters or those that haven't posted in a while, a goodly amount of time will go by before it makes it on the forum.
We've been using the mulehyde EPDM system for years with both cured and uncured seaming tape and never ever ever had a problem. I'm pretty suspicious of torchdown for the reasons you state (gaping holes at pipes and parapets, fire hazard) If EPDM ain't broke why look for something better. Plus there is the benefit of the wild usefulness of EPDM scraps. You can't keep that stuff around, it gets used up in a million different ways.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Generally whenn water is under EPDM for something like this, it is because they did no go hiugh enough under the shingles, or because the shingles leaked and the water ran in under the EPDM
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Generally whenn water is under EPDM for something like this, it is because they did no go hiugh enough under the shingles, or because the shingles leaked and the water ran in under the EPDM
Yeah, I've never had a problem with the EPDM installs I've done, and I'v done numerous second floor patios with Brick pavers or tile over EPDM with never a single problem.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
>>Generally whenn water is under EPDM for something like this, it is because they did no go hiugh enough under the shingles, or because the shingles leaked and the water ran in under the EPDM<<So what's the best way to detail the shingles lapping over the rubber? I assume you don't want to punch the rubber full of nail holes from the shingling on the overlap. Ice and water on top of the rubber and under the shingles? Can you mix those two?Steve
nothing wrong with nailing through the EPDM if high enough.I run the EPDM a minimum of 18" above the pitch break, sometimes 20-24"That allows a 12" or 13.5"" shingle to set with the top of it near the top of the EPDM and have roughly 6" of EPDM free and clear from bottom of shingle to the break.
Nail the shingle at the very top. Second shingle will nail in the same line of headlap space.If concerend you could ruin a bead of the EPDM compatible caulk there or use it to stick the shingles down against wind lift.
But you do not want the I&W shield in contact with the EPDM. Bituminous products can lead to disintegration of the rubber roofing. Same with plastic roof cement. I think some EPDM manufacturers even recomend a slip sleet between the shingles and the rubber to minimize that contact.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks. That's the way I'm going to go. What do you like for decking under the EPDM? I've only used the latex adhesive, and I must say I didn't think it worked very well. Are the solvent ones better?Steve
pretty sure my guy only uses the solvent based ones. I took classes to install over twenty years ago, then decided to retire from roofing to remodeling and have never installed since. I sub roofing out now as much as I can. Back then they were just talking about latex adhesives coming soon to a ....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Steve
I dont know shid about the roof problems that you have but I like that house that your working on, keep posting the pics of the place!
Also, fill out your profile so we know what part of the country/world your in.
Doug
Hi Doug,Upstate NY, just outside of Cooperstown. Lots of great Greek Revival houses from the mid 19th century here. Unfortunately this project will stall out in short order. I'm just jumping in to help the homeowner stabilize the place, then leaving it to him to finish over the next 5 years or so. So pix will be pretty slow in coming on this one. Got to do some fun stuff though. Roof structure on the right hand wing was completely replaced, and lots of post and beam repair/straighten/strengthen. Spans on floors typically were 2x6 30" O/C for 16' span. Main posts cut out and left unsupported, bad sills and rotten corner posts, that kind of stuff. Basically undoing about 150 years of misguided remodeling piled on top of a severely under-engineered and maintainance-deprived structure. Wish he had the budget to see it through.Steve
Thanks and check out this thread, another Greek revival from your neck of the woods. 95014.1
Wish he had the budget to see it through.
Seams to be the problem with a lot of people!
Doug
Edited 10/8/2007 7:05 am ET by DougU
"Basically undoing about 150 years of misguided remodeling piled on top of a severely under-engineered and maintainance-deprived structure."
Steve,
I just checked out your photos. That's a great description of the task at hand! Good luck to the homeowner ... for me it would be a tough decision on which alterations to try to preserve. And what to deconstruct and discard.
Re-creating the original Greek Revival configuration would look best and minimize future maintenance issures, but would sacrifice a substantial percentage of the current square footage.
Allen
I have only been responding to his roof questions, but undoubtedly that was my impression re the style and sahpe. Getting that flat interuption off the Greek would do this house a world of good. Dealiong with it now feels like taking a girl in a leg cast to the dance on friday night. I'd rather go with a girl who can swing, or stay home and play monopoly with the good old gal.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I have only been responding to his roof questions ..."
As always, your responses were excellent and on-target!
I did let out an audible yelp when I viewed the rear elevation photo. But I can certainly understand any hestitancy to remove exisiting square footage.
Allen
The Italianate wing is not as awkward looking in person. It's not as bad as the one down the road with the mansard-roof wing. Looks like a pizza hut got stuck on the side. Anyway, it's going to stay because it's useful and the HO is frugal to the nth degree. We put a new clay chimney thimble in his house accross the street and there was 3" of thimble cutoff leftover. He saved it. When I brought some new siding (select pine) he said with total shock: "these boards have no knots in them!" Everything we throw on the burn pile or put into the trailer to go to the landfill, he's picking through to make sure nothing of value is going away. He's a really great guy and he wants to preserve the place, bu not at the expense of useful space.Also, the history of the remodeling is actually kind of intrigueing. The italianate wing and the center box are on a full cellar that looks to have been built all at once, but all of the framing in the italianate wing is definately later, from the sills on up. Also, the front door and windows in the center wing are dead plumb, but the frame is 3" out of plumb, so it windows and doors were re-set long after the frame had wracked, probably when the wing was redone. There are framing remnants from an eybrow window where the second story of the italianate wing is, so it was definately 1 story on the left at one point. Maybe fire dictated a whole new wing at one point. No sign of charring though. If it was just a remodel, why is all the framing different? There are three trim styles inside: Small late federal/early greak backbands in the 1 story wing, fatter, typical greek backbands in the middle, and typical vernacular italianate on the 2-story wing. First floor windows are 6/6 on small wing, 1/1 on center and big wing. In back of house is an eybrow window re-used vertically.2nd pic is of HO. He's running for County Board of Representatives.Good fun though.Steve
Whatever you do - if he really is such a cheap bastidDo NOT try to change his way of thinking.We need more cheap bastids running government!;)( Be dang, that oughta be worth quoting again some day)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Steve, I've been enjoying your posts. I'm curious what the homeowner's objective is with this house. Mainly trying to save an old house ... make it livable, then sell?
Have you worked with the architects Crawford & Stearns from Syracuse? They're involved with a lot of historical buildings. I know they've kept a stone mason friend of mine busy over the years.
You've referenced the Benjamin Asher books in other threads. Do you have copies of Minard Lafever's books, The Modern Builder's Guide (1833) and The Beauties of Modern Architecture (1839)?
Lafever spent the early part of his career working in central New York State (Finger Lakes area).
Allen
Hi Allen,I got a look at your photo gallery on your house. You are doing some really fabulous work. Wish my house was half as interesting inside as yours is.The homeowner bought this house because it's accross the street from his. He's watched it deteriorate over the years and the summer people come up less and less from NJ. He finally talked them into selling it when the front wall of the one-story wing started collapsing. I think the wing would have gone down this winter had we not got to it. His house is about the same age. They started out thinking they would just put about 10K/yr. into it for the next 5 years or so and make a modest rental out of it. They asked me for help with a plan of attack and hired us on for a month to help stabilize it. They were so thrilled to see it straightening up and flattening out and the floors stop bouncing that they are all excited about the house now. I think there is a possibility that they may accelerate the work on this house and move into it themselves then re-do their other house.The only architect designed job I've worked on was a post-modern addition to a Greek Revival designed by Peter Gluck out of Manhattan. I've not gotten west of here very much.I've not seen LaFever's books. I'm going to be starting a whole-house project on an 1830's Greek next spring and the homewner is very historically attuned She has some of the LaFever books that she is going to lend me. Are they readily available as reprints?Steve
Steve, I think at least one of the LaFever books is still available from Dover Publications. I had the "Beauties" book on my shelf, but it's currently out on loan. It's amazing how many of his "embellishments" I see on houses across the state ... designs taken directly from his book.
That's a great story about the house. I'm happy to hear that someone would take on a project like that. Too many of these places are simply bulldozed down ... or used as practice by the local volunteer fire department.
In the decade or so that I've been in my current home, there have been at least six 1830s-40s houses nearby that have been purposely destroyed. Sure wish I could have saved them.
Allen
"Wish my house was half as interesting inside as yours is."
Steve, I consider myself very fortunate to have found my house for sale when I did. It took a five-county search, though. And I ended up an hour from my work and nearly that far from my kids' school. A lot driving for a lot of years.
Your photos reminded me of an odd addition that's illustrated in an 1829 watercolor of Buffalo, N.Y. We're at the mercy of the artist's abilities, but it looks like two shed-roofed sections joined at a right angle, creating a partial hipped roof.
It's apparently a wooden appendage to a masonry house (the stepped-gabled house in the center foreground):
View Image
Allen
Edited 10/10/2007 1:46 pm ET by WNYguy
There are a few other intesting things to notice about the house in the paining.
1) Shutters on the side windows, but not the back.
2) Tie rods stabilizing the parapet chimneys.
3) A full-width porch across the front? Unusual for a Federal-style house.
4) A double chimney incorporated on what would be the front, right chimney?
Geez, I can sit and ponder old drawings and photographs for hours!
Allen
Yes, that's a really nice painting.Here's a couple of pix of a really odd little greek I've driven past for years and finally stopped to snap a couple of pictures. Too bad it's so far gone. There was an italianate box attached to it, but fell that down years ago.Steve
Steve, that is so cool. Those photos are going straight to my files for future reference. It's really an amazing place. The interior shot is fantastic. Gorgeous mouldings.
That three-pilaster facade is unusual. I think I have maybe one similar example in my files ... I'll be looking for it tonight.
Wow, those capitals and shutters ... everything about that place is stunning. Sure wish I could put some wheels under it and drag it up here to my property. Thanks for sharing!
Allen
I've seen a few of the 3-pilaster things out towards Madison/Boukville NY. They commonly have arched trim like a collonade spanning the pilasters.I'm trying to remember exactlwy where this is...it's on Rt. 145 somwhere between Middleburgh and East Durham. I guess that's probably Greene County.SteveAttached is a photo and rendition of a house I get to do a whole-house remodel on starting this spring. Still in the design stage. But we're going to add a proper second story to the back wing and add a 2-story addition for a future B&B.
"They commonly have arched trim like a collonade spanning the pilasters"
That's a lovely look. Often more Federal than Greek on the houses I've seen. I went through my files and found a few three-column examples (two-story porticos), but no other three-pilaster houses. I may have come across some in the HABS online collection.
Your upcoming project looks fantastic. The proportions are working well.
Regarding that watercolor painting I posted earlier, obviously that foreground house is three-bay with the door on the left. The portico roof, partially visible iin the drawing, covers ONLY the doorway. Very common. It would not span the entire width of the facade, as I had previously suggested as a possibility! Further evidence of the door location is the rear window placement only in the second two bays. The first bay would be the staircase location.
Allen
Hi Allen,>>more Federal than Greek on the houses I've seen<<Now that I think about it, the ones I've seen like that may have been federal. It's been a long time since I've been over that way.Proportions on the upcoming project are mainly what we're working on now. I feel the second story on the middle addition is a bit too tall. I'm thinking I would like to get down to more like a 1 1/2 story and have windows project up into the frieze. But then the friezes misalign awkwardly. Also, HO is hesitant to break the frieze. I'm not too sure about it myself. I've only found one existing example where anything larger than an eybrow window breaks into the frieze, and that particular example is pretty clumsy looking. Have you seen any subordinate wings on greeks with full-sized windows projecting up into the frieze, by chance?Steve
Steve, I'll look through my archives for an example like that. Actually, my own house has a somewhat similar situation, though in a very simplified, less "monumental" scale.
The photo attached shows the kitchen/dining room wing. The two window openings at the far right are original, and extend up into the frieze board. The windows themselves were originally 9-over-6, like the ones I made to the left of the doorway.
Allen
Steve, here are a few Greek Revival examples of windows that "violate" the frieze. Sorry about the blurry shots ... I hand-held the camera and photographed from my notebooks.
On Rte 17 in either Sullivan or Delaware County:
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Not sure where this is, but it's one of several examples where the windows extend up to the band of the architrave:
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Auburn, New York. Windows extend all the way up through the frieze:
View Image
This house I think had some additions over the years, but note the windows on the second floor of the projecting wing:
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This house is in Tioga County. I think the window trim extends into the lower part of the frieze:
View Image
Here is another example of windows that extend all the way up through the frieze. Trumansburg, N.Y.:
View Image
This house in Geneva, N.Y., has some minor alterations, but the second floor window openings on the wing are original, I think:
View Image
Allen
Edited 10/12/2007 5:06 pm ET by WNYguy
Steve, I forgot to attach this one from Auburn, Cayuga County, N.Y.:
View Image
And here are a few "pillasters-wth-arches" examples from your neck-of-the-woods, I believe:
Cooperstown:
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Cherry Valley, N.Y.:
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Near Cooperstown:
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Near Owego, N.Y. (west of Binghamton ... not so near to you):
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Allen
"I feel the second story on the middle addition is a bit too tall."
Steve, I see what you mean. If that section set back slightly from the main house, then I think the height would look OK. Since it's flush, however, a lower roofline might look better.
Did you do the drawing? Beautifully done ... what program do you use?
Wish I could have found an historic example of exactly what you'll be doing!
Allen
Thanks so much Allen!Those are some fabulous examples. It will certianly give me some good points of reference for the client to look at and think about.You are so good about photographing stuff. I should take more pictures in my travels. I was a professional photographer for about a decade before I got going with restoration. I totally burnt out on photography for years, so I have a certain built in resistance to picking up a camera. But I've started carrying a point-and-shoot digicam around the last couple of years, but I still don't take as many pix as I should. I've got an urge to get a nice digital slr lately, as I've become frustrated by the limitations of the point and shoots.Are your files from digital originals or film? Film I'm guessing from the ones that are written on...I've seen all of those arched examples you pictured. Yes indeed, they are federal. I can't say I really like that look very much, though. But they are very interesting. I wonder how regional that variation is.Yes, I do the drawings. I use Vectorworks. It's got its pros and cons. I'll tell you more about it if you are interested.Steve
"You are so good about photographing stuff."
Steve, I wish I could take credit for all the photos. A friend of mine shot probably 70 percent of what's in my files. Seems like I'm always late to where ever I'm headed, and too easily think, "That's a beautiful house ... I'll photograph it the next time I'm out this way!" But he'll always stop.
Most of the photos -- his and mine -- were shot with 35 mm SLRs. But we've both made the switch to digital. Point and shoot, currently.
For most of my career, I was an artist and graphic designer. Over the years I did a lot of architectural drawings ... ink at first, then vector-type applications on a Mac (Aldus Freehand, mostly). I didn't get into the early 3D programs, as rendering a wireframe model took a lot more time than simply drawing the view or two I needed.
But eventually I need to get up to speed with the new software. Vectorworks looks like a good one. What you're doing is very impressive. It's certainly a great design tool.
"I wonder how regional that variation is."
I've got examples from eastern, central and western New York state, Ontario, Canada, and Ohio. Are you familiar with the Lorenzo house museum in Cazenovia, N.Y. That's a fine masonry example of the "pillaster with arches" form:
View Image
A couple of the Cooperstown photos I posted are from the Historic American Building Survey, which is a great resource. Lots of photos and measured drawings, many of them done during the Depression years:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/habs_haer/hhquery.html
I usually do searches by county, typing in "Ontario County, NY" for example, and searching "match this exact phrase".
Have you considered slightly smaller second-story windows for that second section as a means to bring the scale down a bit? My own house, for example, has second-story windows that are the same width as the first floor, but shorter. Pane size is 9 x 10, versus the 9 x 13 panes of the first floor windows:
View Image
Allen
Edited 10/12/2007 11:06 pm ET by WNYguy
Hi Allen,Yes, I've thought about dropping the size of the second story windows. If they weren't in such close proximity and in the same plane as the 2nd story windows on the main box, I think it would be a good solution, but as is I'm not sure. After the HO rejected the first iteration, I didn't pursue it. Maybe it's time to draw it up and see what it looks like.Funny that you were a graphic designer. After my stint as a photographer, I moved on to picture editing at a newpaper, then art directing at magazines. I then went to Architecture school for a year, then decided just to build. Been 15 years at it now as a builder.Vectorworks is pretty good, but a little labor intensive. Some of the other programs will do more for you automatically, but I find the control I get with Vectorworks nice. Was a little easier to use a couple of versions back. A german company bought it and added a bunch of features to it that don't really help me so much, but make have to re-learn things. I hate that. But the latest version renders a lot faster than the earlier ones, so it's worth learning curve.Are you still on Macs?Steve
By the way, would you happen to have any higher resolution scans of those pix? I downloaded the versions you posted, but they're a little rough to print and show to the client. If so would it be too much of an impostition to get you to e-mail them to me? OR you could just post hem here at higher res and after I downloaded them, you could go back and delete if need be. I don't know how they feel about large attachments here now. That used to be verboten.Steve
Edited 10/12/2007 11:42 pm by mmoogie
Steve, I may need to set up a tripod and reshoot those photos; they're pretty blurry, even at a higher resolution. I don't have a scanner.
Coincidentally, I worked in newspaper newsrooms for most of my previous career. More than 20 years. I almost made the jump to magazines when I interviewed for art director at Bicycling Magazine back in the 90s. Didn't get the offer, though.
I finally gave up on Macs. But I still hate PCs.
Sounds like you've had an interesting career path. Funny how life takes its twists and turns.
You must have already spent many hours to get all the measurements you needed for the Vectorworks drawings. Very impressive work so far on this job. Will you need an architect to "stamp" the final drawings?
Allen
Allen,Life is funny. My only regret is I feel like I'm running out of time to do all the things I want to do.What kind of work did you do for the newspapers and where did you work? I was in South Jersey, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Seattle, and Minneapolis. I actually was one of 3 finalists for a job as an editor at FHB right around the time Breaktime was getting going. At the time I was interviewing, I was commuting from here to Cohasset MA to do a job with Fred Lugano (of Breaktime flame war infamy) in order to see how he did his cellulose work.Bicycling magazine would have been fun. I worked in a bike shop in high school, and my current work partner is big into riding.What made you jump into old houses? Is that what you primarily do for a living now?Steve
"What made you jump into old houses? Is that what you primarily do for a living now?"
Yup, that's what I do now. It had been a hobby since I bought my first old house in 1983. Got more and more into it every year. My newspaper career also got started in 1983 at the Gannett paper in Rochester, N.Y., doing informational graphics, illustration, page design. I moved around a bit after that.
Sounds like you were in some major markets. Urban areas held little appeal for me. I turned down opportunities at The Miami Herald, The Detroit News, The Wall Street Journal, Orange County Register, and a few others over the years.
More than once I considered applying at FHB. Their "employment opportunity" ads exactly described my "skill set." Writing, photography, drawing, construction knowledge. QuarkXPress, Photoshop. With two kids, a house I loved here, etc., I never pursued it.
"My only regret is I feel like I'm running out of time to do all the things I want to do."
I hear you. My wife and I just got home from a memorial service for her ex-brother-in-law. Prime of life, then simply didn't wake up one morning. Every day is a blessing and not be taken for granted.
Allen
Steve, I've attached higher resolution versions of those window photos. I reshot with a tripod, but some of the original prints were not of the highest quality.
The Bath, N.Y., photo is one of several examples I found showing frieze windows that extend lower than the frieze. Not exactly what you're looking for, but somewhat related.
The Ithaca, NY, house is an example of the window frame abutting the frieze.
Hope these help.
Allen
Allen,Yes, much measuring to do before starting in Vectorworks. It usually takes me the better part of a day to measure up a house enough to draw it accurately. It really helps you understand the house better to measure it so closely.No, I don't need an architect to stamp the plans. I have an engineer I use for work that needs stamping, though I usually do the actual engineering myself, and just have him check my work.I actually got a design job a few years ago for some folks who lived in a victorian and wanted to build their own cape style house. They went to an architect who drew up something that looked nothing like a cape. Not only that, the codes office wouldn't accept the plans he drew. They were that incomplete. They got referred to me be a mutual friend. I worked with them to get the plans more in tune with what they were looking for, provided 13 pages of drawings, got my engineer to stamp and do the septic and energy analysis, and they have been happily--if slowly--building it themsleves for the last few years. I stopped in recently to see how they were coming and took the attached pictures. Disclaimer: I did not specify those horrible octogon windows. I had specified square sash turned 45 degrees. They cheaped on on having them made. They also changed the back dormer. See attached drawings (which were intermediate studies). More commonly I just draw for design for me and the clients, not ror full working drawings.When and why did you give up on Macs? They are making quite a comeback these days. I'm a big fan of OS X. I'm saving up my sheckels to get one of the newer intel macs so I can boot windows to run the occaisional program that you just can't find for the Mac, right now that amounts to about 1 program. PC's are OK when they are working, but lots of time lost to babysitting their health that I'd rather be doing something else with.Steve
Steve, here are a couple other related examples.
The Madison County detail shot shows a window abutting the frieze.
The Genesee County gem is in Stafford, N.Y. I've included it because the inset porch reminded me of the second section of your project house. The photo is a little out of focus, but that entire inset area is beautifully panelled.
"When and why did you give up on Macs?"
I gave up in the mid-90s. Mainly because they were so much more expensive to buy and upgrade than PCs. I still used Macs at work, and kept my home Mac going for a while, but finally packed it away in the attic.
Allen
Hi Allen,Here's a rendition of an earlier version I did with the windows the same size as on the main house, but the wing lowered and the windows projecting into the frieze. I liked it better but the HO's gut reaction was that she like the frieze unbroken. But she has since started worrying that it looks too massive with the second story that tall. She's started to rethink her objection to interrupting the frieze, and we've both been on the lookour for existing examples. I think your samples will help her let go of the notion that it just wasn't done that way. She very much want this to look authentic.I also drew it up even lower yet with just eyebrow windows iun the frieze. That looks pretty good too, but we're trying to squeeze a lot of functions into the space, and need a little more height than that would allow.I wish that side of the back wing was a little offset. I'm not real thrilled with that slab of a side. That's why we're trying the pergola off of the side of the third box--to try and articulate that side a little more. I've since realized that for process considerations, the third box...the one story part...will have to be dismantled and put back up later, and that would allow us to offset it or even change its shape and scale, so we've definately got some more design work to do before groundbraking in the spring.Steve
Here's a detailed close-up of the cornice to show a little of what the program can do. The mouldings are pretty accurate renditions from measured drawings I took on site of what's really there. The roof is a texture file from a photo of a rusty metal standing seam roof that's on my garden shed. The lighting is set to be the sun at 5pm today for this lattitude and longitude, and is changeable. You can see the application window in this screen shot. I'm working on a Mac, but the program is cross platform, and you can download a free viewer that will let the client look at it on their own computer, PC or Mac, regardless of the platform the file was created on.Steve
Steve, do you know what county/town that's located in, so I can label it properly in my files? Thanks!
Allen
All - I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I have a low-slope question as well, and I’m getting pinched for time. We are building a new house in Norman, Oklahoma and have two balconies cut into the roofline (see pics). One is off of my wife’s studio and is 10’ wide by 5 1/2’ deep; the other is off the daughter’s bedroom and is 71/2’ wide by 9’ deep. I am planning to run sleepers width-wise under 1/2” OSB as the decking, then Mulehide over the OSB. The opening threshold heights will be 3”, so accounting for the OSB thickness that makes the pitches about 1/2” and 1/4”, respectively. I plan to run a second set of sleepers depth-wise on top of the EPDM (so water can drain), then Trex-kinda stuff on top of the sleepers, then finish the sides of the openings with fake-shake shingles So here’s what I’m wondering:1. Does this sound reasonable?
2. Are the pitches enough for drainage?
3. The only Mulehide thickness available locally is 45 mil; is that good enough, or should I double it up?
4. If I want to set the Trex flush with the door threshold, my pitch on both balconies would become a bit shallower (2" over the span instead of 3"). Could I get some of that back by using 1/4" OSB decking and still be okay structurally?TIA,Greg VS, Ilini boy gone OkieEdited 10/8/2007 12:48 pm ET by harpoharpo
Edited 10/8/2007 12:50 pm ET by harpoharpo
The only Mulehide thickness available locally is 45 mil; is that good enough,
I'd look for a different brand to get the .060. Mulehide is ABC's private brand on Genflex's product, IIRC.
Glue some scrap EPDM to the bottom of the sleepers so you have rubber against rubber.
Stick with the lower slope and use 1/2" sheathing.
http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
You've got a tough to detail situation with the cornice that lands on the roof. Hopefully, you can pull that out of your way 'til you get the roof completed.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Thanks for the suggestions, Seeyou. Are you thinking that the diciest part is where the roof meets the deck? I was thinking that I would run the EPDM up the sidewalls about 18", and sneak it up under the cornice board to follow the roof line, then it would be covered with the shakes. I could probably pull the cornice board off and maybe roll it up onto the roof decking as an alternate procedure? Part of my problem there, though, is that the roofers need to get in this week, and I'm not in a position to move out on the EPDM yet. As for the thickness, I'm pretty limited on suppliers around here - is it possible to double-up (glue) two 45 mil sheets together?VSUpdate - thanks for the tip on Genflex, just found a local supplier that carries the 60mil, so looks like I don't have to muck with trying to double-up the 45mil. And I will also adhere some EPDM strips to the sleepers as you suggested!
Edited 10/8/2007 4:34 pm ET by harpoharpo
As for the thickness, I'm pretty limited on suppliers around here
That's pretty weird - you can't hardly get .045 here. I think the two layers is a poor second choice. If the 1st layer is breeched, the water will build up between the two. If there's an ABC, there ought to be a local store or two. Try calling some roofers to see if you can buy some of their cut offs. Doesn't look like you need a whole roll anyway. I've probably got 4 or 5 scraps laying around that would do your job.
I could probably pull the cornice board off and maybe roll it up onto the roof decking as an alternate procedure?
You need to get it out onto the shingle plane at the bottom where the side triangles end. How are you making the transistion over the tops of the shingles below?
the roofers need to get in this week, and I'm not in a position to move out on the EPDM yet.
Let them shingle and then take the shingles back up and the cornice off at the sides of the well when you install your EPDM. The put everything back together when the EPDM is finished.
I usually do these wells with copper. We probably get called to redo 8-10 of them a year because the original installer couldn't figure out how to make them not leak. The devil is in the details where the sheathing dayllights and against the back wall. Spend all the time you can getting your door flashing right. You've got the door sill down tighter on the roof than I would like to see it.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Yeah, I didn't like the two-layer idea either, but luckily I found some .060 stuff locally thanks to your pointer on Genflex. And thanks for the thought of your scraps - that's a real stand-up thing to offer.I thought that I'd use the uncured stuff to wrap up into the corners and flash over the 2x6 that you see in the picture (see attachment as an example), set the door sill on the flashed 2x6, then run another flash over the sill/up the jamb, adhere to the EPDM sheet, then caulk the snot out of all the seams. If you had your druthers, how high would you set the sill?As for what to do with the triangle geometry, yeah, I'm going to have to stare at that pretty hard, but my initial thought is to use the uncured strips to roll out onto the roof decking under the shingles to the sides, then roll it down & out under the soffit/fascia trim strips, if that makes sense. I really appreciate the help, mon frere. We've been trying to make this house happen for 15 years, and I'd sure like to get it right the first time....
that's a real stand-up thing to offer.
I wasn't offering my scraps (time and distance) - just letting you know most of us are pack rats and can't bear to throw out a 10'x10' piece of rubber 'cause we might run across a job like yours.
If you had your druthers, how high would you set the sill?
Don't know how much snow you get or how the wells are oriented, but snow build up on the north side could be around for a month or melt tomorrow here.
6" would be good.
Also (and I'll catch some flack for this from the commercial roofers that have only done it "their" way), I flash everything around the perimeter with copper - door sill and under, side triangles and apron over the shingles at the front. Then I lay the EPDM on the near horizontal surface using seam tape and seam sealant at the perimeter. That way, in 15-20 years, when the EPDM fails, pull it up and install a new piece with out removing the door, trim and shingles.
Mulehide has a residential spec for this method - that's where I got it. Been doing it for quite a while (5+ yrs) and have not had a callback yet.
I really appreciate the help,
That's why we come here. But, someone will be along to argue in a minute..........http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
I wanmt a door threshold pan no less than 4" off the EPDM floor. I saw the red flags waving over that sidewall fascia too. I peel the trim off, do the EPDM, then do the trim back on, and then shingle those flank roofs.
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Thanks for your thoughts as well, Piffin; I'm pretty much a nub at EPDM (I'm a furniture and cabinet guy by nature), so I am open to any and all advice.Greg VS
Sorry about such a weak arguement
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Copy All, understand the time& distance thing, and again thanks for all your advice. Both wells are North facing however we don't get a whole lot of snow down here - but then again it's always a #### shoot.
And if the arguments get heated I'll roll my daughter in on 'em - saw her win an argument with a brick wall one time...kinda felt sorry for the wall...
LOL, I know how those Norman gurls are...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, she's only 16 (going on thirty), and I already feel sorry for her husband - and I haven't even met the guy...So you've been to the Heart of the Sooner Nation?
I knew people from there when I was in Colorado.They're like folk from texas - only different
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Forgot to add the Attachment - DOH!! "After the Gold Rush" was playin' and I was having a Senior Moment...it's a 2MB file, hope it's not too big....