I am a first time builder, building a replica of a Charleston Single house. I am trying to do eveything myself. I am currently building custom kitchen cabinets and could use some advise. I am using birch plywood with poplar face frames.
1. What is the best type of white paint to use?
2. What type of wood should I use for the door panels and drawer fronts … I will be framing and routing out the door panels.
John
Replies
John,
I have also used birch ply for cabinet carcasses and poplar for face frames. All of my cabinetry has fully inset door and drawer fronts, so I usually mill a bead on the inside edges of the face frames.
As for the "best type of white paint" to use, are you looking for a brand recommendation or an oil vs latex-based recommendation? I've always used oil-based paint on kitchen cabinets...but then, I've never used white or off-white. While it's not as big a concern these days as it was years ago, yellowing can still occur as the paint ages in oil-based paints. If looking for a clean white look, a good quality latex may be your safer bet.
Painters here use BenMoore or Martin Senour...mostly a personal preference of the individual painter. Haven't had any problem at all with either. We've used Pitt and P&L as well. Though it's not much of a problem since you're looking for white, were you going for a more vivid, heavily pigmented color paint, that may force you down either an oil or latex-based path, as some carriers don't handle heavy pigments as well as others.
For paint-grade door panels and drawer fronts I use poplar for the stiles and rails. If the panels are small, I'll use poplar there as well. If the panels are larger, I'll still either use poplar, or go with MDF. If raising the edges of the panlels, try to find the older, heavy MDF...not the Trupan/Ultralite. The old, heavier stuff (about 94 pounds for a sheet of 3/4") holds a milled edge much better than the ultralite. I think the half-inch ultralite is okay for a captured flat panel, but I think the milled edges on the 3/4" Ultralite MDF are a bit too delicate to hold a milled raised edge in an area as heavily used and abused as kitchen cabinet door and drawer fronts. It may work okay, but if the ultralite adge gets dinged, it may fracture. The heavier-grade MDF is much sturdier. My opinion.
After milling a raised edge profile on a 3/4" MDF panel, I tack cloth, then give it a coat of Bartley's paste pore filler applied with an acid brush. Let it dry overnight, then sand, and the milled edge will be glass-smooth, ready for priming and painting. If you don't use a pore filler (or some other treatment) on MDF, it can sometimes be a bear to finish.
Mongo,
Thanks for your reply. I needed a second opinion on the MDF door insert panels. A recent article in another light construction magazine described site built cabinets much like you describe and as I plan to build them ... including the MDF door inserts. Since I like to build with real wood, I had reservations on the use of MDF.
Yes, my heartburn is more the type of paint to use rather then the brand. This same article enphasized that only oil paint would harden sufficiently to stand up to the abuse of a kitchen. The local Benjamin Moore dealer advised me to use latex for the same reason you mention... white oil based paint yellows. With all the new paints out there I'm sure there should be a hard non yellowing white for cabinets.
I also appreciate the heads up on the different types of MDF, and the introduction to Bartley's paste pore filler. My prior experience with painting MDF was not a good one. It sucks the paint up and swells.
John
Hope you don't mind me butting in--but I am also doing a total kitchen rebuild--it's my own place--and although I'm not a professional I would qualify myself as a high end amateur.
My question is what is anyone's opinion on using MDF for kitchen cabinet carcasses--then spray painted (not white) and faced for flush door construction--any pro's or cons?
cje
My gripe about MDF is that it's heavy, has no structural strength on it's own, won't stand up to moisture, not great at holding screws, and the dust(which id easily taken care of, but it's still nasty). I would use it for framed panels and some moldings, but not base board. It is also tough on most carbides, so sharpening becomes an issue.
It's attribute(to me) is that it is flat,dimensionaly(sp) stable and pretty consistant in thickness.
For cabinet cases I prefer plywood, and maple is my favorite for painting.
As far as a using MDF for door panels only I would use a good oil base with a good primer.
As far as using mdf for carcases in a kitchen well if it gets wet itll turn into something that looks like termite droppings. I would (do) use plywood instead Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
A friend had his new custom cabinets, captured raised panel, painted a trendy white. They looked fantastic, for awhile. With changes in temperature and humidity the joint between the panel and frame is stressed due to differing expansion rates of the materials and a crack formed around every panel. The cabinet maker bit the bullet and re-sprayed each door. Six months later, they were all cracked again. Check out how these white kitchen doors are constructed in the showroom stores. Everyone that I ever checked was made from a single piece of material. Painted component doors don't work!
I just reviewed you post again and you stated that you were going to route the door panels. Route them from a single piece, but before that make good friends with the carbide bit sharpener in your area, if you use MDF for the doors. Been there, and am now the proud owner of three identical dull bits. My sharpener retired.
Composite materials for kitchen cabinet carcasses could be a huge mistake, especially for a sink base. Paul Lavine details a two piece base cabinet in his book " cabinets and built-ins" printed by Rodale. It involves a separate kick base frame with the box mounted above. Ply could be used for the kick base and composite for box, except for the sink base I used this method for my custom cabinets and installation was a breeze.Last bit of info, the opening for the DW should be 24+" not a perfectionists exact 24". Learned that one the hard way.
That's a common occurrence, the unpainted line at the edge of solid wood panels. It comes from failing to fully paint (or stain and polish) the panels before the doors are assembled. When the panel is finished to the edges prior to assembly the shrinkage you described merely reveals more paint, or polish. I specifically point out to clients, in writing, that the fault will definitely occur if I'm commissioned, after assembly, to paint or polish panelled doors of any type (including MDF, and plywood panels.) In other words, when it happens I'll come out and try to fix it for an extra charge, if you're willing to pay, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
I have to disagree with a lot of what's been said here.
If you say MDF doesn't hold screws as well as plywood, I say you're either using the wrong screws or not predrilling your pilot holes the right size. The problem is, MDF is so dense, if you don't drill the perfect sized hole the screw will be either loose or will displace more material as it enters the hole and split the sheet because there isn't enough room. Try confirmat screws, with the stepped drill bit designed for them and you'll find that they hold beautifully.
If you say MDF lacks strength, I say you might want to do a few tests. I tested several different types of MDF against 9 ply birch plywood and found 3/4" standard weight to be stronger resisting deflection when spanning 32" and loaded with 30 lbs of books.
Another way I tested was by screwing, nailing, and biscut and gluing, several L shaped samples, loading them with 5 lb increments of weight until they failed. The MDF biscuit and glue joint proved strongest, failing at 65 lbs. The MDF confirmat screwed joint failed at 60 lbs. The MDF drywall screwed joint failed at 45 lbs. The birch plywood drywall screwed joint failed at 30 lbs. The MDF nailed joint failed at 20 lbs.
Ultra light MDF is made by several different manufacturers. So is standard weight, formaldehyde free, exterior grade (which would work fine for sink cabinet boxes), and a high density that would work very well if you're concerned about edge rigidity, like for raised panes or cabinet casework.
MDF is here to stay. And at less than 1/2 the cost of comparable plywood, you're going to limit your market more and more as long as you you avoid embracing it. Can't you just hear the old timers back in the 40s when plywood became more popular as an everyday structural material? Or these guys still not using O.S.B.?
I can get virtually any veneer on an MDF core that I can get on a plywood core for far less, that looks far better - no grain telegraphing through. And for paint grade cabinetry it's a no brainer. It's better.
There's even a product that has a combination plywood core, with MDF as the outermost plys, then layed up with veneers that gives the workability of plywood with the smooth underveneer of MDF - I think it's called "procore".
Oh hell, you got me yakkin', instead of working, now. Later - Jim
Brinkmann for president in '04