Hi all,
We bought a set of wood french doors for our new house. We inspected them before we installed them, but did not fully open them up since they were screwed shut from the top for delivery and for moving them into place. Once we got the door in, which took 3 guys, we opened up the doors to see that the nails to hold on the brick moulding had shot out through the jams in 9 places. In some places, there was as much as 3/4 inch nail that came through.
I consider these doors pretty damaged, but the door company says they’ll give us $50. I think this is unacceptable. I consider the doors to be “factory seconds” for which I would expect to pay about 50% of retail (which was $600).
What would you do, or have you done with damaged doors? I ordered these through a lumberyard.
Replies
I think asking for half off is unreasonable.
Fix the holes, take the $50, and move on.
If the holes are so bad that you can't reasonably fix them for $50, ask them to replace the jambs.
Alimony, n.: Disinterest, compounded annually. [Walter McDonald]
What, you don't agree with me? LOL! Well, that's good and why I asked. I wanted to get other perpectives. I guess you've been on both sides, the vendor and the homeowner/builder. But come on, wouldn't you be really torqued if your brand new door had 9 holes in it?
Either way, Thanks for the response!
Paula
Well, I'd have to admit that I overlooked that there were 9 holes. That is quite a few.
Yes, I'd probably be ticked off. But I try to keep focused on what's important and keep moving too. If you return the door, and wait several weeks (?) to get another one, will you have really done yourself a favor? Or if it bugs you so much you end up getting an ulcer over it? Building/remodelling is stressfull enough without stressing out over nail holes.
BTW - How big are the holes? And did I get it right that the holes are only in the jambs, and not the doors?
I think the "factory second" term is just a cheesy term made up to sell damaged stuff to the public. Doesn't really have any bearing in the day-to-day operations of lumberyards.Affluence trivializes, excessive affluence trivializes to the absurd. [Dren Geer]
Well, you all are right that you can't get too bogged down in these details. If it would have been One or two holes, no problem. I agree. And the door was going to be stained, but maybe now painted.
It looks like we'll get this worked out and get at least a couple hundred bucks off the door. It is interesting to get the perspective of other people. I really appreciate your comments.
Like grampa always says
sh!t happens, ya can either jump over it or in it
Good luck with the door.
How big are the nail holes and how dark were you going to stain, might not even see them with dark putty and stain
Another line of gramps:
"A dark stain can cover a multitude of sins"View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
It would have been dark stain since our house is stained dark......although not to cover a multitude of sins mind you, just because we like it that way and we live at 9000 ft in Colorado. Our UV is intense.
Your gramps is a wise man.
This homebuilding thing, its nothing if it aint a lot of sh*t. You're right, many times you just have to go around it. Did I ever tell you guys about how the engineer designed our septic system wrong? Or how the guy who blasted our basement blasted the garage when he wasn't suppossed to? Oh Lordy. The door really aint nothin. Do you think someday I'll laugh? ha ha ha I actually already do.
You guys are the best. Thanks again for all your thoughts.
How much business do you do with the lumber yard?
Where is the damage, ie, how noticeable will it be when finished, and how small are the nail holes?
Paint or Stain grade?
Paint grade, puddy and get on with life, it is not worth the hassle, same for stain unless it will be very noticeable.
If your really unhappy and they can't be fixed reasonably see if you can work something out with out getting to pissed at the guy answering the phone.
We occasionally have a stray nail in a door or window and its usually easily fixed.
$600. - You bought a cheap door and you received a cheap door.
WAHD
WAHD,
I agree, I bought a cheap door. No question about it. I would have LOVED to have bought a much nicer door, and someday, I will replace it. I just had to get a door. However, cheap door or not, do you really think it is acceptable to send out a door with 9 nails sticking out of the jambs? I'm not asking for cavier for the price of carp! I know I bought a cheap door, but that doesn't excuse damage.
Using your logic, If I buy a Hyundai instead of a Toyota, its okay for them to give it to me with hail damage because I bought a cheap car. Or, if I buy store brand cheese instead of Kraft, I should expect a little mold on it since I bought cheap cheese! All I'm saying, is "Hold the Mold" :-)
Seriously though, I'd like to know your thoughts.
If these are in the jamb, you'll never see the holes, will you? Snip off the nails and patch the wood. Restain or Repaint.
Lessons to learn:
This is probably the cheapest French Door they offered. Inspect, inspect, inspect. Expext quality issues and be prepared for them.
Sue them in small claims court or take their offer.
While the retailer is at fault here, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I don't see how the retailer is at blame here. He does have responsibility to see that the customer recieves what they paid for, a functioning door. But he didn't drive the neails into the brickmold at a sloppy attitude. He just sold it - probably without knowing that there were problems.
It would be interesting to know the brand name. Also, Paula, is this the outswing door that you mentioned awhile ago that was a nine hundred dollar door that you got as a return or something for six bills? That might have some bearing on this story, but based on your description, for stain grade, they should be taking a couple hundred off. But the manufacturer has to OK it. The retailer doesn't have that much in it and the manufacturer is the one who messed up.
Probably the retailer was offering you 50 out of his own take, thinking it would be easier to settle at that than to get the factory rep out to folllow up on things..
Excellence is its own reward!
Paula,
I don't care for the mold either. To use your food analogies, buying a cheap door is kind of like ordering a Big Mac from McDonalds, the burger you get isn't always what you might expect.
To serve a cheap burger you must start with cheap ingrediants, utilize cheap labor and try to sell them in volume to make any kind of profit.
Do you think your door was hand crafted by the Amish or slapped together in 5 minutes at 4:55 pm on a friday night by an 18 year old boy who has a 12 pack and his girlfriend waiting outside in his truck?
Yeah, me too...........
WAHDView Image
Your theory and my theory are identical about the guy who nailed in the brick moulding (there's that mold again)! See, I knew there was some common ground. I know these doors are not going to perform like a set of doors from Marvin. I just figured they wouldn't show up with nails sticking out!
They are what they are... I guess what you are saying is that they were "damaged" figuratively from the getgo because they are cheap. Mine just happened to be "extra damaged" visibly. Is that the idea? Anyway, The scary thing is, there are cheaper doors out there.
Is that you in the picture?
have U asked about them taking back and reordering?
That's what I'd offer my client.
I'd not take responsibility for installing damaged materials that the customer thinks is junk...whether it is or isn't. A patch is a still a patch.
Now...U just have to decide if it's worth the extra time and trouble to go with out in the mean time. A hidden defect isn't unheard of. The yard probably won't go 1/2 because it's outta their pocket.....if a complete return/refund or reorder is done...the door people have to eat the set.
$600 french's sound like 15 lite pine......not really sold as stain grade. The jambs aren't always solid pine either. Depending on the carpentry level of the installer.....it'd probably be quickest to get some standard jamb stock...or some 1x..and hang the doors yourself.
$50 in materials would cover that cost. You'd eat the labor. I'd charge the min 1/2 day rate if working near by or if I wanted the afternoon off....$150.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Edited 4/28/2003 7:02:08 PM ET by SamT
Paula,
I'll stick my neck out here and tell ya that I'm in your corner on this issue. I think your analogies are perfectly sound ones and I agree. Hell, even Wal-Mart has a "no questions asked" return policy if you're dissatisfied for any reason. Low price IMO is not and should not be considered analogous with damaged goods. While there may be bigger fish to fry in life than some unexpected nail holes in a door jamb, I think the decision as to how important those holes are to you…….should rightly be yours to make. With nine protruding nails, it certainly doesn't sound to me like you're being anal about anything….especially if these are to be stained. I'd bet money that if this door was delivered to the retailer's own home for installation, he'd say "I aint' hangin" that thing. Send it back and get a good one."
Maybe it's a regional thing, but people around here seem to respect one another pretty much and practice it in business matters, as well. Folks here aren't expected to just eat it when they receive damaged goods from the supply houses/lumberyards. Stuff like yours gets returned everyday without a whimper from the retailers. While they may offer to "settle" with you for a price to reduce hassle, if you decide you'd rather have the undamaged goods that you originally came to purchase, it's done without complaint from the retailer. Those who fail to do this usually find their businesses failing in relatively short order because the word gets out and there are other places to make purchases. Demeaning the (non-anal) customer when they rightly expect undamaged goods for their money is not a viable route to making friends, return business and/or profit.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I'll agree with you that as a professional, I would not install this unit, but it is already installed and now it could be a problem foir her to remove it for various reasons so an adjustment in price is the better choice for all parties, if she can accept their best offer.
I'm a little unclear whether the splits from nails are just in the jamb or if they have marred and splinted the doors themselves. If the doors are damaged too, I would send the whole thing back, but my impression haas been that the jambs only are damaged..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Maybe I'm missing something, I reread and I didnt see that they were installed. If there not then tell the lumber yard that you dont want them because of the damage. If they are installed then thats different and maybe someone with a little skill can hide the defects, ask the yard if theyll go for $100, what ya got to loss.
Doug
to Jeff: The doors are not 15-lite pine. They are stain grade douglas fir. Frankly, aside from the nail holes, they are very nice looking. You are right about the labor charge, that is the rub. And what's this about taking the afternoon off? Alright, I'll leave you a cooler of beers. :-) Just save a couple for me.
Goldhiller: Thank goodness someone agreed with me besides my mother (who felt that a great injustice had been done, LOL!) I appreciate your comments. There is a town around here called GoldHill.
Piffin: Brand of the door is Nord sold through some local distributor who then sells it to my lumberyard. I think the lumber yard does have some responsibility. That is part of the 50% markup. Um, can I use my "cheesy" reference again. If I buy cheese and find it has mold on it, my local grocery store doesn't tell me to "Call Kraft". They refund it. That is part of the cost of doing business. However, I would rather see the door company step up to the plate.
These are the outswing doors, but they are not the ones I bought from Hurd. Those doors were our window dealer's floor model. I got those doors for $300 and fully expected some problems with them, but frankly, they are perfect!
A side note to Piffin: are you coming out to pick up your daughter?
Well, I have got to believe that everyone must be sick of this discussion by now. But I think it has been an interesting debate and I really thank all of you for your comments.
my fault...I was thinking interior doors...
now I'm really confused?
If they are exterior.....dows the damage affect the weather stripping?
That'd be a whole new ball of cheese...because that'd affect any future warrenty.....accepting and installing a defective product.....as opposed to a defect that's just cosmetic.
BTW...I agreed with ya too....I'd not install it and settle for $50.....I'd pull it and bring it back....wait for one that's right. In the grand scheme of things......you'll have to look at those fixes for a much longer time than the reorder takes. Would drive me nuts.....even if I was the only one who knew it was there.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
my fault...I was thinking interior doors...
Your slippin bud, Brick Mold on interior doors?View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
yeah...maybe that shoulda been the tip off?
I was picturing split jamb interiors.....
maybe I've been installing too many interior french's lately.....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
You tell him Cag, brick mould and you couldn't see the nails until it was installed says exterior outswing.
Hard to tell what master carpenters think though, having never been one.
Oh damn, I was just told to stop screwing around.
that's why we have assistants like U around to catch the little stuff as we "master" the big picture!
apprentice.....I think that's what we call them.
The master's just gotta remember the deposit slips.....
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
;-)
Haven't found that yet/
Paula,
Unless there's more than one Goldhill in Colorado, that would be the little town I lived in for several years. Well, our place wasn't really in Goldhill, but about four miles further up Sunshine Canyon Road. A piece of my heart is still up there.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
You lived up sunshine canyon. Wow. I'll bet you do miss it. We are furhter south in Gilpin County. They have made it extremely difficult to build on mountain property in Boulder County these days.
If you ever come out for a visit, stop by.
side note - No, she's flying home.
I'm sure you will be fine with $200 off of six but clear up for our understanding now...
Exterior french stain grade fir doors that are already installed. Right?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, Exterior, stain grade, already installed french doors. See, you had it right!
:-)
It all depends Stain Grade or Paint Grade ?
Leave them installed, b*tch a little more to the lumberyard, get what they offer, and fix the damage. Not a difficult repair; a good painter will be able to fill and stain. If your painter does faux finishes, he can use a comb to simulate woodgrain in these areas if need be to help conceal. Also, will the doors be open or closed typically?
Good luck.
Steve-o
Don't I wish the doors would be open most of the time....that would imply a lovely and mild climate. Hardly the case! :-) In fact, I got outswing doors because it is outlandishly windy and I had been advised that outswing would perform better in this particular case (that is all documented in another thread, by the way). I must say, I LOVE them being outswing. It makes our porch that they open up to seem like part of the "great room" I can't wait to have a summer party...summer being a couple weeks during the month of July around here. Anyway, I digress
And the painter, well, that would be me. I've never been good with a comb on my hair, let alone a door, so I'll probably just patch it and be on my way. It just isn't what I want to do right now.
The lumberyard now says that they will compensate us a couple hundred bucks, so I'm happy.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if they were interior or exterior french doors. If this is keeping you up at night, there are various shaped metal faux painting combs. You could probably get one at your local paint store and practice on some scraps of wood. It is very easy to simulate wood grains.
By the way, 33% off sounds pretty good.