Dear sub-contractors,
Please wear hard hats and steel toes on my site – just like we told you in your site orientation. You are in a business that requires them; grow up and get used to it. And just because no one is working above you doesn’t mean you can’t bump your head on things around you like studs and joists.
Likewise, please use fall protection equipment when you are working more than 10 feet above grade. I know my safety guy has shown you how to use it, and the equipment is right here in my trailer ready for use. And if you must remove guard rails for some reason, please replace them.
Please bring your own extension cords to the site with you, and take the time to run your own line from the temporary board so that you have a circuit to yourselves. Eight power tools connected through one breaker may not work all that well.
I’d appreciate it if you would use the site like a loading zone rather than a parking lot – drop off materials and tools and then park out on the street like everyone else. No matter how big the site is, there is never enough room and there is sure to be another delivery of materials any minute now. If you still feel that you are important enough to park on site, please leave your keys in the ignition so I can move your truck out of the way.
The engineer would prefer you not to cut through studs in bearing walls or drill large holes through columns and joists. Please check with me beforehand and save yourself the back charge.
Finally, please clean up your own garbage as you leave.
Thanks for your co-operation,
Wally
Edited 12/1/2004 9:44 am ET by sly_karma
Replies
Your subs can read?!
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
No hobla english.
KIP
You're lucky if they don't take a walk because they no longer "feel good" about the job. "This is how we do things," "I don't work for you," "It will be fine," "You have to talk to my boss, who's in Aruba," "Yeah, whatever."
I really love the extension cord. Last guy here went through the garage scavenging extension cords, tools, wood, etc. When asked why he didn't bring his own extension cords, his answer was. "Why? Mine are just the same as yours." I'm gonna stop now, because I feel the unpleasant memories flooding back.
SHG
I really love the extension cord. Last guy here went through the garage scavenging extension cords, tools, wood, etc. When asked why he didn't bring his own extension cords, his answer was. "Why? Mine are just the same as yours."
You're probably doing good if your extension cords don't grow legs. I think I'll start a new thread on that.
jt8
You`ve hit on two of my jobsite pet peeves.
Please bring your own extension cords...
I won`t get into details (long story), but I once freaked out on my boss (at the time) for repeatedly unplugging my chords for his use. I went into a major tirade....dunno how I wasn`t fired on the spot. Well, except for the fact that I was 100% in the right!
Finally, please clean up your own garbage as you leave.
Are folks truly this lazy? I realize its a construction site...and its highly likely that someone will not be far behind to make your mess look minimal in comparison.......but take yer sh!t with you!!!!
I`d like to add one here if I may.....please respect the work space and stations of others. As a carpenter, in residential construction, I`m often the only one on the job to set up a bench. Its for my tools and use....it is not a catch-all for your crap.....not your tools....not your materials....not even your use....you`re in my way! If I find your Ryobi cordless drill sitting here again I`m going to toss it out the window into the dumpster.
Thanks...I needed that!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Are folks truly this lazy? I realize its a construction site...and its highly likely that someone will not be far behind to make your mess look minimal in comparison.......but take yer sh!t with you!!!!
Not always. I'm a fairly easy to get along with guy. I'll clean up, work with other subs and I always had my own tools and extension cords. Towards the end of bieng self employed I was mostly a sub for one or two shops. I could make a decent living that way. But I started to notice something.
At about one out of every two jobs I was dealing with something that wasn't my problem. Stairs set all wrong. Nothing in the wall to attach rails to. TJI's not packed out to support posts. Or, My top three. You get there and there is no heat at all. It's -5 and the glue won't dry properly or set. The Job Super's answer? "Just run down to the yard and pick up a heater. You'll use it on other jobs here. " Or, When you show up and the Super sends the painter over to snatch up your balusters while your not looking so he can paint them before you put them in ( If he would let me know I would drop them off easily a week ahead of time and he could paint away. Just don't steal the damn things and when I find then they are dripping with paint.). Or, My all time Favorite, When you get that call that the job is ready and you just have to get there because," the hard wood guy is coming on Day X and thats the only day this month he can be there and you just have to get that rail in before him". Only to get there and find out it's all BullSX@# ( Do some of these guys really believe we don't talk to eachother or have eachothers home phone numbers?)
Now I could walk away. But then I would need to find another way to bill between $350 and $400 for the day. So Instead, the Builder/Job Super/ General Contractor got treated how he treated me. Is this the third time I've had to fix those stairs even after I offered to come show your framer how to set this particularlly complicated winder? Oh, I'll fix it, but trust me, It will cost more to fix the Drywall I'm gonna tear out then it would have cost to just get it right from the start.
Is this the tenth time I've had to cut the wall open to put blocking to attach the rail to on the same model ( yet again afetr offerin to come mark it out for you or even put it in). Big hole in the drywall ( Maybe 32 x 32)
I don't Know Sly Karma's situation, but most Supers and Gc's get treated how they ask to get treated.
My favorite is when I get the materials placed and click the trigger to cut something and the saw doesn't even move. I usually find my 10-3 cord unplugged so that some knothead can listen to his radio on my job site! Or better yet my cord is lying in the mud, covered with paint ( or joint compound) and they can't understand why it would bother me that my stuff now resembles the crap that they abuse on a daily basis! Ok I've gotta stop now and try to suppress the throbbing vein in to forehead!
Miami
I've actually had builders complain when I opened a wall to add blocking to attach a balconey rail. What do they expect? Drywall anchors?Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Arguing with a Breaktimer is like mud-wrestling a pig -- Sooner or later you find out the pig loves it.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I ask nicely. I offer to show the framer exactly where to put it. I offer to come put it in myself. After that It's a nice small neat hole. If that didn't get the point across, the next one was huge.
Backcharge you might ask? Yup if I got backcharged, the builder got a bill for $150 to put that block in. That gets the point across.
Had one guy tell me to go and play Hide and go #### myself. I told him no problem and walked. He called back an hour later and begged. turns out the only person who could do it couldn't do it for six weeks. Of course I agreed to come back. For $400 extra. Bitter pill to swallow but he got the point.
Most days I miss the work. I seldom miss the business.
My personal favorite revenge is when they put their grande coffee mug or supersized coke on my saw horses right before I come in with some 2x12 stringers to cut for stairs.
" Oh, I'm sorry I didn't even see that there."
Dave
PLUNK! I clean a space and set up a work station for a special project, go to the truck for tools, and in five minutes everything that anyone has gets PLUNKED down on the empty table.Coffee cups, cords, jackets, hand tools, you name it. Tell em once, "This is my space" then start heaving into the plunk bucket
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No, you can't stack your sheet metal on my sawhorses!!!Les Barrett Quality Construction
I think the HVAC guys might be the worst offenders...well, one particular outfit I worked with in the past anyhow. Much of their work was prefabbing back in the shop...so when they`d get to the jobsite, they`d expect the same comforts. Yet didn`t bother to bring along their own setup.
I was thinking of a particular electrician with the Ryobi comment......but you triggered memories of a more offensive crew. I don`t miss them one stitch.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Are folks truly this lazy? I realize its a construction site
Yep. Seen some just drop their trash where they are standing--no awareness of it at all once released. Only justice I have ever seen was when the prima donna plumber had to go lay where he had dropped his banana a couple of day before. The one the ants had found. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
With you. The thoughts this brings has the bile rising in my throat thinking about all the crud I've cleaned up after some other lazy yahoo. And people using my cords (and walking off with them) and the tilesetter who thought my SCMS would make nice clean cuts in his hardibacker . . . without asking. Or the cabinet guy who showed up a week late and unannounced and started moving my saws, my benches, my tools . . . because they were in his way. I can feel the aneurism about to pop right now. The thing is I hardly have to deal with other trades; I'm alone about 95% of the time. I can imagine what it's like if they're perpetually around.
I don't know about getting the clue. I followed the same drywaller enough times without the builder doing anything about their perpetual mess. Last house I did for him I bid it and added 2 days labor just for cleaning up. Nobody said squat. At least I didn't b###h as much. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Clean upI was running a job for another contractor as lead carp one time. We all sat down to lunch on the dedck we were building around the pool at a meticulously manicured estate. One guy threw orange peelings in the bushes, raisning a couple eyebrows. then, he threw the candy wrapper on the deck, where it blew into the pool.I quietly got up, picked out the wrapper, picked up the orange peel, walked back and put it in his lunch box. "This job is not a pig-sty. If you live like that at home, it is time to go home."Message recieved. No more messes.
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Are you running a commercial job sly?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Yeah Blue, I confess, I'm a commercial guy hangin out on a residental board. But the repartee is so much better here. Not to mention I'm learning stuff.
WallyLignum est bonum.
and then park out on the street like everyone else.
Especially if you are not allowed to track dirt out onto the roadways.
Tell your suppliers that they can't track mud out on the road either.
If I ever work on one of your job-sites, I'll make sure I comply the best I can. ;^}
Hey,Sly: I have a list of demands that I expect you to follow on the job. Are you interested in hearing them, or are you the "one-way"type? (sounds like it!)
Hey Miles, I'd like to hear your beefs...just to compare them to mine.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Miles, it's a bit of a stretch to call me 'one way' just based on my somewhat tongue-in-cheek original post. Heck, I even made sure to to use 'please' at least once in every paragraph. If you read some of my other posts, I think you'll find I'm a give-and-take sort of guy. So please feel welcome to post your 'list of demands'.
The job I'm running at present is a 5000 SF dental clinic with tons of electrical and mechanical rough-in. I have 8 guys just between those 2 trades alone, plus glaziers, excavation crew grading for site work, my own crew of 4, plus assorted project managers, engineers, inspectors and owners all dropping by for a look. It's a small downtown site, and if they don't all get along and behave reasonably professionally, anarchy would rule in no time flat. Sure, my post reflected some frustration, but tell me, are my requests unreasonable?
WallyLignum est bonum.
I'm always surprised to hear beefs like this. The community of guys I work in is very well behaved and stuff doesn't disappear or get abused. People bring their own cords, lights, ladders, hoses, and horses, and use 'em. People even clean up. Maybe it's something in the water. I suppose it's different in commercial work...?
On the whole I have good experiences too. We tend to use the same subs a lot, and I have a good working relationship with them. Probably the biggest problem I have is compliance with required safety standards.
Because I am in an area with only 50,000 or so regional population, a lot of the subs we use do both commercial and residential work. Enforcement of safety rules is close to non-existent on residential, but pretty rigorous on commercial jobs. So we all wear hard hats and so on. Some people just can't seem to accept the necessity of wearing a simple hat, and it gets pretty frustrating to be repeatedly asking the same guys to put them on. To be honest, I find this refusal to be childish and unprofessional.
I wish I could just let them go ahead hatless and see how they like being slapped with a personal fine the next time compo inspector comes by. Trouble is, my company gets fined too for allowing it to happen.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Man, I feel your frustration.
I am a commercial mantenance tech.. In the last 8 years we have gone from doing almost all of our own remodels and maintenace projects to contracting almost all of them. Some of the things I have observed:
The longer a sub works for you, the more they become comfortable using your stuff and manpower.
Keeping thier stuff in one spot and organized becomes less important to them, after all your people straighten up after them.
Safety is a constant battle, even though they were all certified through our program before they could even start a job (what make them think tennis shoes are ok because they are working in an office building?).
My BP goes sky high just thinking about it. I guess the "familiarity breeds contempt" saying is true.
Like you, I try to remain flexible to expedite the jobs, but that does not mean doing anything for the sub. They bid the job for $$. If they can't do it without my labor and/or tools, they should quit bidding the work.
I am currently building my own home. Without being an a-hole, I let all subs know that tools and trash are thier responsibility. If they wish to rent my equipment we can negotiate the fee, but if I find the using my stuff without my permission they will be charged at a higher rate than I would have given them to start with. If I ahve a sub working by the hour, and catch them sand bagging me, they are immediately fired. After all, if they hired me for a remodel of thier own home, would they expect any less from me?
Dave
Sly, just post the warning on the trailer door. Mention in the warning that due to insurance regulation (third party Pr**k) those not wearing hats would have to leave.
Send one guy home one day and you'll never have another...the word spreads fast.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
doing a concrete pour couple months ago 240 yards. Nothing was overhead, nothing at all. about 30 finishers on site, not a single hardhat anywhere. Job super started complaining about hardhats. 60 yards aready pulled up waiting on the road. all 30 of the finisher went home, left the super with the mud.
Thats a good story Brownbagg.
Now for the rest of the story.
Who's liable for paying for that 60 yards? I'd say the concrete finisher.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
If a finishing outfit pulled that stunt they would find themselves not only slapped with a huge breach of contract but unwelcome on any of our jobs - ever. My outfit does primarily commercial concrete forming, tens of millions a year of it. No sub capable of that size of pour would be able to do without a chance at business volume like that.
The thing is, it's just a hard hat. Wear it, it's part of the trade you're in - overhead hazards or not. If people - my guys or subs - can't accept wearing a hat, then they need to consider a different line of work.Lignum est bonum.
Are the cabinet installers required to wear hardhats?
Not where I install them.
I turned down a job because it was hard hat and jeans while installing. Was told when building them in the shop no hard hat and could wear shorts. Not good enough.
This is TX, it gets hot, I cant wear jeans all the time.
Doug
we have that problem too. some crafts are made to wear jeans, sleeve shirts, hardhat, safety glass, boots, while the guy four feet away is in tennis shoe, shorts and tank top because he a different craft.
I'd like the hear this too. Don't be a tease.
Sly,
I like what you are asking and in most cases I would agree
however some clean up is done by us.
We had a newer ( for us) electrical sub and we are very pleased with his scheudule and workmanship.
But after he started with us, he was a slob. coffee cups, wrappers, crap everywhere. Electrical trimmings etc. So after the first day and he headed out before I could say anything, I asked / told him hey Allen do you think you could clean up after yourself. He looked at one of my guys and said. Sure your call, Im costing you 65 an hour, whats he costing you and points to a laborer.
well he had a good point, and we now clean up after the sparkies and the flushers
Sure your call, Im costing you 65 an hour, whats he costing you and points to a laborer.
This has some surface appeal, but has one intrinsic flaw. If he worked clean in the first place, no one (he or a helper) would have to clean up after him later. The real answer is that if he chooses to work like a slob, he's on his own time. You're paying for an electrician, not for a guy who dumps his garbage on the site.
Another thing. It's one thing to have electrical trimmings on the floor and another to have his coffee cups and what's left of his lunch. If I'm the HO, and he's treating my home like a dump, I'm very disturbed and insulted that he treats my home this way. The old answer, "don't worry, we'll clean it all up later" doesn't cut it. An HO wants his home treated with a little respect, and whether he realizes it or not, he extrapolates this treatment to the quality of the work. Live sloppy, work sloppy.
My first judgment of a trade is the way he treats his tools. I've always believes that a good tradesman treats his tools with respect. If I see otherwise, I immediately assume that his work can't be trusted. I may be wrong, but that's what I assume.
SHG
"My first judgement of a trade is the way he treats his tools," I agree, I always size up a tradesman by his tool box especially a carpenter. If he comes on the job with good well kept tools I am impressed. I can't stand it when they bring a pouch and nothing else and borrow everything. Or else they have junk, tools are a sign of a serious tradesman. One really good framer came on my job with his own Paslode nailer and asked if I would supply the gas cylinders for it I was happy to do so, this guy was so productive. The other day a carpenter was complaining how dull my hand saws were I told him, "a real carpenter would bring his own saw on the job."
i wouldnt bring any of my power tools on your job
i'll wear them out making money for myself thank you
Stop and think about that.The thread is about subcontractors.
They are always required to provide their own tools.But supposing you are only an employee in this situation -
you have a paslode
You have arthritis
You can talk the boss into buying fuel cylinders and nails for youWouild you rather use the Pasl;ode and put minimal wear on it or go home with an ache in your arma and shoulder joints every night?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with Piffin, and if an employee wants to bring his own power tools and help wieth productivity Ill supply nails, cylinders, saw blades
lending tools to subs, gives you an extra job, making sure they come back in oerking order
Hello,
As a carpenter for many years, i would bring my own nail gun, my hose, my own saw. I would buy blades (marathons) if the contractor was too stingy to supply them. I made sure that i got paid well and would rather use my own stuff that i am comfortable with and that works best for me. My stuff worked.
As a contractor, i end up supplying most tools and watching them get dropped lost and beat up unnecessarily. "I need another one of those long sawsall blades..."
RZ
that is quite true. its amazing how long I had a good table on my 77 when it was just me and one other, now at times we have 4 of us, and a straight table is a thing of the past, sazall blades, drill bits, also seem disposable to some
now Ive quit replacing tables on the 77 used for framing
two weeks ago, for a special cut I brought out a newer 77 in case. later had to go to town and one of the guys used it, wanted to use the adjustable fence on it, used pliers to tighten it, broke the thumb screw off in it
no one told me until I put it away
he took it home, brought it back nedt day with repair
but still, my tools seem to get abused, but I still feel I need to supply them to my "employees"
If you're required to wear a hardhat then be a profesional and wear the damn hat.
I only supply one old skilsaw for the guys that work for me. If they want something better then they'll have to bring their own.
Dave
I used somebody elses saw once. They did not maintain it properly. I lost four fingers.
Yeah they got put back, but still!
SamT
Sam, thats the best reasong yet....one that I instinctively know about. We used to have some saws that were "rough". I don't mind an old beater, as long as it functions well.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Get over it Isamemon. You are the contractor...you make the rules.
IF you feel better, increase the guys pay by $100 per year...then tell them to get a saw and cord. After two years, they'll be $100 ahead and you'll be happy. I am. Now, when i see the guys fixing their cords....we all laff!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Interestingly, the company I'm with would prefer employees NOT bring their own power tools to work with them. Reasons being mostly that their insurer won't cover loss to non-company tools and they don't want to be liable if something goes missing or gets damaged. Labour satndards in BC are pretty clear: employer provides power tools and accessories, employees provide hand tools.
I also find from personal experience that a guy with his own circ saw on site will insist on exclusive use of that saw. Fair enough, it's his tool, but he is now taking up an extension cord and a plug-in. When there are a lot of subs on site, plug-ins are a valuable commodity. Unless this guy is the sole cut man for the crew and is cutting all the time, all day, this is a waste of resources.
WallyLignum est bonum.
"plug-ins are a valuable commodity" This shouldn't be so. There are such things as three way splitters and two way splitters. And extention cords. Not everything plugged in is run at once.
Actually, a two way splitter is better. If you plug a three way splitter into a spider box, when you decide to remove it, you will often find that there are two other cords plugged into it. [Originally, you gently removed some other guy's connection, inserted your splitter and quickly plugged the other guy's cord back in.] So which one do you replug in?
~Peter
Velvetta. Need I say more?
Sly, when you start claiming that you can't supply enough outlets for my saw, I'm leaving or I'll go out to my truck and get my own generator.
Of course, you'll be paying that bill.
there's no excuse for not having enough outlets for every man that wants one.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
To some degree, that is BS, Blue.Having enough outlets is like having enough sex. There's always opportunity for more needed.LOL, But I know what you mean.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Typically the elect. sub provides us with 6 circuits on the temp supply. Sure there are 12 receptacles on the board but still only 6 circuits. One is for compressor. Another is for office trailer. Plus it is winter now so we are heating and lighting the crawl space to prevent mould and allow plumbers to work. That leaves 3 circuits for all trades to get by on, share as best they can. On this job the temp supply pole is 150 ft from the building. you can have all the cords you want but still only so many tools can be running at once. Personally I don't have a problem if guys want to bring a saw but if they all did it there would be logistical problems.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Sly, don't take this wrong, but all I'm hearing is that the company can't figure a way to supply adequate power, which leads me directly to my next solution...the generator, which will be billed to the GC.
I wouldn't spend one minute playing musical outlets with plumbers and electricians and everyone else that decides they want power. Time is money, and when I'm working, I need an adequate supply of outlets at my discretion at ALL times...and I'm not willing to share my saws or the outlets with anyone.
I would tell the electrical sub to install ten circuits and thirty outlets. If that wasn't enough, I'd double or triple it. Whatever it takes. The fact that the temp service is 150' doesn't mean anything to me. That's the sparkies job to get the service in close and adequate. If they can't do that, then the generator's coming out.
Someone's not doing their job...and it affects the entire process.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
the other option is to find a framer who is familiar with that old time tool. The hammer.
Funny thing is, this just proves how each trade thinks his work is the most important and wants to be a prima donna. Each justified taking from the next because "time is money."
Sparky will be happy to install 50 circuits. Just to make the subs happy. But somebody has to pay sparky. Who do you think that will be?
Will that be a latte or a mocha cappuchino with your outlet?
SHG
"But somebody has to pay sparky."but somebody also has to pay the guys looking for a place to plug in their stuff. or replug in their stuff.the sub getting paid fixed price pays, cause their guys still have to get the work done for the same amount. so the GC passes the cost on to the subs so it won't come out od 'his' pocket. or the subs add time to cover doing this so it's not seen.one way or another, someone pays.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Bobl, you're obviously on the same page as I.
I'm no prima donna, but I certainly have some basic needs when I hit a jobsite and power is very high on my list. Although it would seem that having enough power available on site would be an automatic thing, especially for a commercial project, I don't take it for granted anymore. Whenever we negotitate a contract with any new builder or homeowner, we spell out our power policy explicitly. For our small crew, we need two 20a outlets within 100' of the house....if that's not available, we get $50 per day, or $250 per job....whichever is less (sice gas went up, we'll adjust that).
The most significant problem of sharing electrical outlets is the disruption of thought process and continuity. If I have to stop and consider whether I have electrical supplies availble, my entire momemtum and productivity will be severly hampered. Quite frankly, I wouldn't work for any GC that wanted me to play musical outlets. I would just go out of my mind. On our crew, every man pulls out his saw and cord every day....we never have a cutman or a guy without a full compliment of tools including air and saws. IF you don't have a saw, you still can't use mine....!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I remember those frustrations as a sub, so now I - well, let's say that none of my subs have complained about lack of electrons.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Blue,Do you pay your guys a straight hourly wage? What happens if Joe shows up w/o gun and saw but still expects to get paid the normal rate even though his production will be halved?
Jon Blakemore
Yes Jon, we pay hourly rates. If Joe shows up and normally he's an employee that has all his tools, and for some reason he has nothing, the crew pitches in and finds him stuff to keep working. If we can't roust up enough stuff, then he's gotta make the trip back home to get his stuff.
If it's a new guy that said that he "has all my tools, including a saw and cord" and shows up without them, because he thinks the contractor should supply them, then he'll be in for quite a shock, cause there ain't no tool crib and there ain't no foreman's truck to rummage around in. If he's smart, he'll drive home and get his stuff. If he objects because "the contractor is supposed to supply saws", then he probably needs to work for someone else.
There are many reasons why I don't supply saws. The biggest reason is that I don't want to be a glorified saw repairman. The next reason is that I believe that all serious competent skilled tradespeople want to own and use their own tools. It's a matter of pride, and principle. Obvioulsy, skilled tradesmen command higher pay and that's okay with me. I'd rather pay a guy a little more than fix his saw when he drops it.
My philosophy is this: If your really serious about your trade and your career, you'll do whatever is necessary to succeed. The most serious man that I've ever started as an employee is now a 50/50 partner. It's no coincidence that on the first day, he showed up with his dad's tools. The next day, he showed up with the exact set up that I was using....saw, cord, bags and all the tools in them.
I remember one occasion that I told him that all "real carpenters" always kept a small supply of steel shims in his truck for those rare occasions when they are absolutely necessary and theres none left from the steel setting. He always carried shims after that. Compare that attitude to Jim's attitude. He walked onto my job (they were framing a house next to us) and asked me if we had any shims left over. I told him that we we had just enough, but that there was a bucket of them on a street corner in the other end of the sub. He mentioned that he'd pick them up when he drove by there at lunch. Four days later, a different carpenter, Steve, comes over from his crew. He asked, "do you have any extra shims?".
What does that story tell you about Jim? What does it tell you about Steve? How was it that I knew where the extra bucket of shims are (they were in a bucket sitting next to a pile of beams) when those two guys on that crew didn't, yet they didn't have enough shims to complete their job? They both should have known that they were short on shims and they both drove by that bucket at least ten times each...and the more experienced carpenter, Jim, was told that they were there.
My little story tells me a lot about the attitude that each man brings to the job. Jim is an average, ordinary carpenter that works fast and thinks little. Steve is an ordinary carpenter trainee that hasn't shown enough iniative to evey replace me, or Frank. He'll do a good job of replacing Jim though.
This entire discussion is all about attitude. I had the attitude that I was going to be the best carpenter, with the best tools. I ended up owning my own company. The same can be said for Frank.
Sadly, too many workers just look at our trade as just another paycheck...thereby shortchanging themselves and sourly blaming the contractor.
Just so you know...I pay a guy what he's worth. If he has to rely on a handsaw, I'll probably be paying him the minimum wage till the shift change...then he's gotta go....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,Normally I would disagree with this way of thinking but I have a feeling it works out for the best of all.I love using my own tools. It's the subsidizing (or should that be subsiditizing?) a contractor's job that I hate. It sounds like you recognize the extra expense of supplying your own equipment, so good for you.BTW Speed squares make great steel shims.
Jon Blakemore
Hehehe, now I've finally found a good use for speed squares!
Actually though...wouldn't those aluminum things be too soft?
As for the employee thing...we do realize that a fully stocked carpenter is worth more than a guy that needs everything...even if their skill levels are the same. Additionally, long time employees who have burned out their stuff have occasionally had new saws and cords dropped into their trucks. Once a guy demonstrates that he's serious about his trade, he becomes beholden to me....and I look for ways to help him along. For instance, they have always been welcome to take the generators and compressors home on the weekends and use them on "side" jobs. We always supply all nail guns and they guys take them home and are welcome to use them for their own stuff. I tell them that if they are doing stuff on their own houses, feel free to take the fasteners. IF they are doing small sidework...feel free to take the fasteners. For the bigger jobs, buy a box...but if you run out and need a few extras...help yourself.
I'm not cheap....I just want to work along side real men. I don't like coddling or babysitting. It does work out fine with us as soon as everyone understands....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Sometimes I think I'd like to work for someone like you, Blue. "Pay a man what he's worth". It sounds like you actually mean that. God knows all employers say that but bugger all really mean it. I don't mind the hardball no-nonsense attitude when there's respect for the trade.
What stops me is time served and overall package with my current employer. Getting good medical and holiday package, and commercial work offers an interesting range of experiences that is rarely seen in residential. I'm usually the first man on the site, and last to leave. Seeing the entire project from start to finish is immensely satisfying for me.
If I leave this company, it will be to work for myself. That's why I take side work - to gain more experience in the business side of things.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Sly...hang in there and pay your dues. In the meantime, start raising your prices on your side work untill you only close about 33% of your sales calls. When that happens, you know your're actually selling them, not giving them away! It's a lot easier losing them when you have a good paying full time job to pay your bills.
Learning to price high and talk comfortably about your numbers will be the most important business lesson you can learn.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
This may cause quite an argument,but I am an auto mechanic. We must supply our own tools at all times. If we don't have it, we can maybe borrow from the next guy, but only for so long. There are the guys who don,t own a decent tool and always want to borrow mine. I just tell them that after three times, they either buy it from me or get their own. I use my paycheck to buy my tools so that I can do a job, why should I let them make money with my tools and never buy one. If I break a borrowed tool, than when the Snap on truck comes on Wednesday, I buy 2 of them. One for me and one to replace the broken one. I have done this for 30 years and had very little trouble. The thing that bugs me the most is the guy that borrows them and forgets to return them, and than I have to go and find them in his tool box. That is the last time that he borrows my tools. As you all know, tools are not cheap and the best cost real money. I take pried in having the tools that I need when I need them. I admit that one person cannot own all the tools he needs,but you can buy them on time from Snap on and earn will you pay for them. Tools are expensive and don't mess with mine.
Tom B
When I started out on my first job as an apprentice I had a tool box, we all did. In it there were saws, one 12 point, one 10 point, key hole saw, hack saw, coping saw, set of chisels, one 16oz, hammer, one framing hammer, nail sets, full set of screw drivers, combination square, framing square, tape measure, 24" level, block plane, brace and bit, Yankee screw driver, small Stanley hand drill and bits, small pry bar, crow bar, chaulk line and a few other assorted smaller tools, files, gauges etc. It was no big deal, we had to have them it was expected of us and we did it.
I can't stand it when the hired carpenters come on the job with a pouch, tape, pencil (sometimes) and hammer. It just isn't professional, period.
And most of all it speaks volumes for lack of commitment.
"Learning to price high and talk comfortably about your numbers will be the most important business lesson you can learn."
I haven't learnt this one fully yet, because I still squirm a bit when I present the price bid. I know my $35/hr is still the low side of the market but still flinch when I say it. (Even though other trades like auto shops and plumbers have $60-70/hr shop rates). I consider the lower rate to be buying experience, and I only take on jobs where I will learn something I'm interested in - or ones that will enhance my professional standing. I have all the work I want right now. Besides, ski season is on, gotta keep some weekends for making turns.
My aim is to have a reputation like this: "expensive, but worth it." I'll keep at it.
WallyLignum est bonum.
Right
It is such a simpl ematter to think ahead and make up a box with ten circuits and fourty outlets, some on pigtails with GFCIs. That box goes from one job to the next. It is an investment in production, not a cost. When there is a construction traioler on site, it can be the central, depending...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I feel the same way robzan. I'd rather have a good saw, that functions well, with a sharp blade, than use their stuff just because its free.
I started bringing and using my own saw when i was a union apprentice....and the union rules stated that the contractor supplied all power tools. I din't care...I just wanted to use my own saw. I knew every day which saw i was going to have....mine!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
If your a sub contractor you should bring your own power tools
if your an employee, Ill supply the power tools
apologies thought you were talkin employees
Bud, in the mid eighties I finally got tired of fixing switches and cords and all my saws. From then on, the only saw I supplied to new hires was a handsaw. If they wanted to use a power saw, they'd have to bring their own....with a cord.
I've been a lot happier ever since.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue.............from your posts i would be suprised if any of your employees lasted lomg enough to get thier boots dirty.
if they do im sure its just temporary cause- i gotta eat but lookin all the time for something else
Bud, theres about 500 or so that decided that I wasn't the kind of guy that they wanted to frame with.
It's their loss.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
well he had a good point, and we now clean up after
Well, there's clean up and there's clean up. Most of the electrical subs around here have at least one helper along whether he's needed or not. Said helper can be right helpful by managing the mess the M or J he's following is making--especially if I'm paying for the time for them both.
That being said, I like to have a helper/laborer who policies up the entire site too. First off, they get to see the entire site. That means they can learn things if they are observant. It also means they can find out stuff before I do (extra pair of eyes & ears can see things I can't). It also covers the "betweens" (like when the plumber uses luber scrap for blocking and "forgets" to clean up "his" lumber scraps, but does clean up all the plumbing mess).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Subs are like barbers the more you go to them the worst the haircut gets, switch barbers once in a while you will be surprised at the better haircut, I think it is called easy familiarity. This isn't always the case but some subs do get complacent. But then my Dad used to say the only difference between a good and bad haircut is two weeks.
Tobacco chewers and cig. smokers are the worst.They think they can spit there wad of disgusting chew any where they want or they leave soda bottles fullof the stuff around.Smokers figure they can just throw there butts all over. On my jobs tabacco use can be dangerous to your health and employment.
I must be the exception. I dip all day long but I'm hands down the clean freak on site, and I'd never leave my spit bottle where the HO could see it. Bring my own trash cans and put a lid on it. Spit bottle is in there at the end of the day."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Add this for residential subs. The bathtub is not a toilet!
Who Dares Wins.
Neither are the floor vents!...though I did see an untopped bath vanity used once...at least they got the right room...LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I handle the punchout on commercial work and of the 15 man crew I work with I am the only guy that even know the other subs. We have to cohabitate or it would be chaos. We share power, the occasional cut or borrowing the nailer is fine because we have a relationship with the understanding of respect. As far as the debris situation, "he who makes it removes it, and it doesn't need to be spic and span, just orderly". In our company, 13 guys meet at the job trailer to get out company tools in the morning, I show up with everything but electricity, what angers me more than the subs taking my stuff is my fellow employees because most of them don't appreciate what it costs to buy and or maintain the equipment that I own. I use my stuff because it's in good condition. The hard hat issue needs to be addressed in the contract with fines or people being sent home.
In the contracts we (GC) sign with the subs, there are provisions for maintaining the site clean. I try to broom clean the spaces before the subs start work and show them prior to them starting the cleanliness of the spaces. I caution them that if they don't clean daily, my laborers will and I back charge them. I call their office when I do and guess what? They keep their areas clean! When the subs don't show up when scheduled, I write a letter and hand deliver to their office pointing out the contract provisions. Same results, they show up and are prompt thereafter.
I just don't screw around with them. After all, it's just business. It's construction, not a social gathering.
Butch, I like your style. I'd rather work for a tough superintendent like you, rather than an easy pushover. I am not trying to offend anyone, with that statement either. I prefer tough superintendents because I know if they are tough on us, they'll be tough on the others and that means that promised services can be counted on, as well as schedules! I know I'll be able to count on his word regarding materials deliveries and I'll be able to plan my business in a way that I can be profitable.
Every time I've worked for pushovers, I've always experienced a myriad of delays and complications.....That all adds up to a negative cash flow for me. I leave these guys as fast as possible and let them cut their teeth on less experienced subs.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I'm with you on a tough super. I've got to clean up so much crap on absentee super jobs, I've started adding in a be happy for me factor.Butch, sounds like you're making it fair for all, that's the ticket! Don't worry, we can fix that later!