Decks – Screwed and Plugged vs hidden
I’m getting ready to install a new deck and I like the looks of no fasteners showing. I’ve done a little research on the different hidden fastener systems available but I’m not really sold on any of them. I REALLY like the looks of a screwed and plugged deck but I don’t want to make my own plugs and the only premade plugs that I can fine in a rot resistant wood are black walnut (the deck will be red cedar). 1. I’m wondering if the sanding of the harder walnut in the soft cedar will be problematic. 2. If 5/4 deck boards are deep enough to countersink and plug or should I use 2X6 material. 3. If there IS a good hidden fastener system that I’ve just not found. 4. Or am I just plain crazy for not just using nails. -Jim |
Replies
Have you ever built a deck? Do you realize how many screws you are going to be dealing with? Don't make any plans for your summer, or possibly the fall either.
I think bungs look OK in an interior floor, pretentious in a deck.
There are a half-dozen hidden fastener systems for decks. Plus there's always the option of surface screwing.
IMO, plugs would quickly "unplug" themselves when exposed to weather, especially if plug and plank were of a different wood.
I strongly agree with whoever made the reference to the time intensity of the plugging process you are considering. That would be a HECK of a lot of plugs. I have never used the underside mounts, but I would be motivated to give them a try vs plugging. What about those biscuit type fasteners? I have seen those advertised and thought they looked to be worth a try.
If undermounts were not an option and you insisted on no screws or nails showing, you might consider the following:
1) What type of finish (if any) are you planning for the surface? Depending on the pigment content (e.g., solid stain) you could use an epoxy filler in the holes. I think this would be faster and easier than plugs. It is sandable. It is, however, ugly and needs to be covered with a stain to hide it. It will hold up better than the deck. (Essentially the same stuff as auto body filler)
2) Has anyone ever put a tongue on the deck boards and edge nailed? I have never done this, but have thought about it when installing hardwood flooring. The deck tongues and grooves would need to be made, of course, such that there is plenty of space for movement. You would probably end up using about 25% or so more material.
3) What about using polyurethane glue and brads? I do not recommend this, but I have seen people do it on TV!
I would use 2x material regardless.
Jim:
I am about to begin a deck with Ipe decking, and I have been through all of the various methods. I originally planned on using the Ipe Clip hidden fastener system, which is a similar but apparently stronger version of the Eb-Ty biscuit system. Both systems use a groove or biscuit slot on the edge of the deck board for the clips or biscuits which are then screwed into the joists. The Ipe clip (which can be used on any species of wood) is a round clip instead of the biscuit shaped Eb-ty. The other hidden fastener systems include Deckmaster, Shadoe Track, Tiger Claw, Tebo Bigfoot, and Simpson deck clips. Oh, yes, I did my research! All of these can be found on the web using google.
In the end, I was uncomfortable with the effects of shrinkage (aren't we all!) with the clip systems. The other screw-from-beneath systems were no good because the new ACQ lumber would be too corrosive or the Ipe decking I'm using is too dense.
So... here I am back at screwing and plugging. My final choice is to use 3M 5200 adhesive sealer between each deckboard and the joist, followed by stainless "woodpecker" screws from Swan Secure, followed by store-bought Ipe plugs. My 700 Square foot deck will take around 2400 screws and plugs, if memory serves me. People on this list will gasp at the supposed time this will take, but if you think about it, the screwing won't take that much longer than nailing and the plugs will all be set in one process. A dish of polyureathane glue and a bag of plugs will install in a couple-few hours. The next day, I'll use a flush cutting hand saw and a random orbit sander to take down the plugs. A couple of years ago I made 42 louvered shutters by hand out of resawn fir and pine-- now THAT took a long time!
J Painter
My first post here...
J - what's with the 5200? Seems unnecessary to me...
I agree on the amount of trouble the plugs will be. I'm an "retired" boatbuilder and have bunged many thousands of holes. For your deck it should be a relatively quick (4-5 hours total) job to glue/plug and cut/sand. One suggestion a good sharp chisel can make even faster work of it than the saw. Check the grain direction and practice a few where they won't be seen. The Ipe may prove a little hard though...
Plugging and using 5200, sounds to me like you used to be a boatbuilder too!!! Just remember that 5200 has a way of getting in the hair of people who don't even come within 100' of the job...
good luck,
Tom L
Teak decks...many,many plugs... really,really sharp chisel... brings back bad memories
I hear ya, Migraine...
Next thing he is gonna tell us is he wants to seal the seams with black polysulfide. Talk about a love/hate relationship!
Is Ipe as hard as teak?
Tom L
Ipe is harder, from what I've used. For the life of me I couldn't remember what the "black $h!t was called. Maybe a little holly stripping would jaz it up...
Tom:
The 5200 is not my idea, I found the idea elsewhere. The cost is relatively little and it will hopefully do two things: help keep the wood in place and provide a means to make up potential gaps between decking and joists. I'm also planning on painting the Simpson zmax hangers to help prolong thier life next to the ACQ lumber. I think little things like this are worth the extra effort and minimal cost for a lasting product.
As for the other posts wondering about why I'm not going to make my own plugs-- basically you have to pick your battles. This deck is highly labor intensive due to the design (two-tier, true curve circle, trim-wrapped posts, etc.) and it's simply easier and faster to use store bought plugs. Ipe is quite dense, and I've got other things to do then play around with plug cutters. Of course, since I'm currently waiting for the architect and the town to get through doing their thing, maybe I should have gone that route! It will probably be 2-3 more weeks till I can get started, and that assumes the town won't have a meltdown over my site-built curved rim joist and other unique items!
Oh, and the poster who mentioned nailing-- ipe really isn't practical for nailing it's THAT dense.
J Painter
jpainter -
Have you worked with 5200 before? It could probably hold your deck together without fasteners - it is VERY strong stuff. It is a true marine adhesive sealant and used for fastening & sealing hull penetrating joints and hardware in boats. Tenacious, tough and waterproof.
However, it is a pain to work with - kind of runny for a tubed product, sticky as all heck, gets on absolutely everything (pants, fingers, hair, car seat upholstery...) and cleans up very poorly and with solvents.
I would suggest looking for something a little easier to work with if you really feel the need to use a gap filling adhesive. I'm not a carpenter, but don't really understand your requirement here...
just a couple of bonus cents...
Tom L
Tom:
LOL! I have not yet worked with 5200, but I have heard the stories. Part of the idea IS to hold the decking down, the gap spanning is a bonus. It is likely overkill, but then so is my deck design. With the 5200 and screws, the boards will stay put even if a screw snaps or a piece of decking gets ornery. I examined a deck nearby this site that also used Ipe decking put down several years ago, and there were some screw snaps due to heavy sun exposure and not quite dry decking. If my screws are plugged, I'd rather not have to repair a snapped screw-- perhaps the 5200 will be insurance against this. I'm also using Anchor seal on the fresh end cuts to avoid checking and Flood Seasonite on the decking surface to slow the drying process for the first exposure. If you've ever seen Ipe, you know the wood could possibly outlast me-- hence the extra efforts to make sure it stays put.
As for the mess, I'll wear latex gloves and I'll wear the black mess around my wrists as a badge of honor until it wears off in a few years. ;-)
J.
I wonder how much difference that there is between 5200 and PL Premium?
I do a fair number of decks and cannot find the person who came up with the idea that decks should not have visible fasteners. Good thing. A deck can last a long time and face tough conditions. After a few years they don't get much TLC so it helps to make repairs easy. Wood warps and fasteners pop. Some of the materials we are using today have some little quirks about them, and these may differ from coast to coast as well as continent to continent. Ipe in my area is PAD, (partially air dried). Using plugs, hidden fasteners or adhesive can lead to a difficult repair in a short time. I have been using stainless trimhead screws on the face for 1" material with good results but time will only tell. If you want to couterbore and plug why don't you make your own tapered plugs and use them after the deck has had a chance to dry some. Tapered plug cutters are available from many woodwork supply houses. You get the best results with a drill press but they can be done by hand. Just take a piece of decking scrap and start boring, you can snap the plugs out with a screw driver or saw them free. Keep the grain going the same way as the deck board. I don't think I would use bungs or end grain plugs if you are in a hot dry area. Don't forget to post some pics after you're done.
"The other screw-from-beneath systems were no good because the new ACQ lumber would be too corrosive or the Ipe decking I'm using is too dense."
Jpainter,
I've used that system with Ipe. Works great. Here's the link to one built using that system.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=32014.1
It's galvanized just like your joist hangers. If you are really worried, paint them in addition. No matter what you use, you will have to pilot drill the Ipe anyway.
Jon
>It's galvanized just like your joist hangers. If you are really worried, paint them in >addition.
Jon:
The reason I worry about corrosion is that this ACQ lumber that became mandatory Jan 1 2003 is far higher in copper concentration that the old CCA lumber. It is so corrosive that stainless is recommended over galvanized. Unfortunately, my local suppliers tell me they can't get stainless hangers yet, so I'm stuck with Simpson Zmax. That brings up another point: the different levels of galvanization. Electrogalvanized stuff is useless for ACQ, and even the hot-dipped stuff has been updated to give a thicker coating. Bostitch, for example, now makes a "thick coat" nail for ACQ and Simpson makes this Zmax. Aluminium flashing is a no-no and copper flashing is recommended instead. I've learned a lot about ACQ from FH and from these forums.
Anyway, some vendors, like deckmaster, are now making stainless tracks. However, due to the cost and to the unique configuration of this particular deck, I felt that screwing/plugging would be the best solution. There are areas where I would have no choice but to screw/plug anyway, so I might as well use the same system all over. I'll know in another month or so if I made the right choice! ;-)
J. Painter
McFeely's has SS hangers, I buy them by the 10 pack. They also have SS hanger nails, short and long. But they're not cheap. 1500 composite deck screws, 20 SS hangers and 500 SS nails both short and long set me back over $300. But it's the clients money...
I never met a tool I didn't like!
You could cuts strips of something like iceguard and put them between the galv and treated lumber.
I have built many decks over the years and I have used the same technique on all of them. I use galvanized finish nails at a 45 degree angle on the top outside corners. Weather 2 by 4s or 5/4 material, it works the same. Some times I predrill to make it easy to nail, a small drill bit is used. The boards do not lift as often with the angled nailing. It gives a clean look to deck with no visible nails.
if you really want the plugged look, get a plug cutter from http://www.leevalley.com , i use them on stair railing all the time
simply put you make your own plugs from the same lumber as your decking, bang them in with a little glue(watching grain direction), and sand smooth
downside? need a drillpress, but just a little one, my little delta benchtop will cut them in maple
caulking is not a piece of trim
There are a lot of people who really liked the pegged look once they've seen it. I've even done a few faux pegged decks (i.e. added ornamental plugs to an already conpleted deck). The other thing that's happened is that instead of matching plugs, people ask for contrasting plugs (either darker or bleached) and end-grain plugs. Been asked to put fake dowels and bracing on the framing to give that timber-frame look too.
In any case, here's a mix of thoughts for real and faux plugs: For cedar I cut my own plugs on a drill-press using the Lee Valley (Veritas) tapered plug cutter. For contrasting plugs, we leave them in a sealed Rough-tote for a couple of days with a small dish of amonia to darken them. Drilling the holes free-hand is a hopeless exercise. I've used one of those drill guide attachments and replace the plastic base with a hard-board template with the spacing (centre-line, inset) marked out on it to drill the plug-holes with a carbide fostner bit; and, I've also used a plunge-router with an Onsrud spiral bit and a template that registered to the last set of holes as well as the board edge (22"x8" ply, 2 dowels to register to the starter line of plug holes, two template holes, turn it over length-wise and used a spacer to set first line of plug-holes. We snap chalk-lines when using the drill. I tried those combination drill bits with the counter-sink collars that work so well in your drill-press on pine and maple, really splintered up the red-wood: use the fostner or the routers and you get a flat-bottomed plug-hole and can use pan-head or washer-head screws.
The drill works well enough for retro-fitting faux plugs, the router is the way to go for new work, remember you can't route close to a wall or post, so work those details out first.
There's one last trick for a faux plug look; don't put in a fake plug at all, just use one of those punch-cutters (they use them to cut holes in leather, or make round pieces of felt) to cut a shallow ring where you want it to look like there's a plug - everyone will tell you what an amazing grain matching job you did too.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Don't own a deck and don't build decks. Tend to think most decks are a massive waste of resources. Most seem to be used about once a year and last ten years without frequent and vigorous maintenance and they are frequently a pain to wire. My trade. No big fan of decks here.
That said I have seen a couple that seemed head-and-shoulder better than most. One used what looked like stainless angle iron track attached to the supporting joists. Screws were run up through these from underneath and into the decking. The complete lack of visible fasteners was good. Years later this deck seemed to look and hold up better than most.
Pretty sure someone here will name what I describe.
may i make a suggestion for flush trimming all those plugs? try using about a 1/2" diameter straight bit in a router or even a laminate trimmer. set the bit flush with the base (basically let it rest on a hard, flat surface and tighten the chuck), put the router over/next to the plug and just slide it gently back and forth* to cut off the plug. use a 'straight' bit, as opposed to an 'up-cut' or 'down-cut', so it doesn't try to push or pull the bit in or out of the chuck over the course of hundreds of plugs. practice on some scrap- especially if you're using face grain plugs. it will probably work best to cut across instead of along the grain so they don't split or splinter. end grain plugs wouldn't be so particular, but as someone mentioned above, they aren't the best choice for this application anyway.
since the router can only cut things that are proud of the surface, you could even set it down while it's running, etc. it should all go pretty fast. oh yeah- get some good ear muffs or plugs- you'll be some tired of that whine after awhile!
have fun!
m
*upon further consideration, you should work right to left and only cut while pushing the router away from you- or alternately- work left to right and only cut while pulling the router toward you. this will keep the rotation of the bit working against the plug instead of it 'self-feeding' and possibly getting out of control.
Edited 4/17/2004 10:37 am ET by mitch
Intuitively, you'd think this would work; unfortunately, our experience was that it didn't: the router base has to go up and over the plug, so you end up with a plunge operation on a plug inside the router base. About the only set-up that came close was a jig (a 1'x 9" piece of 3/4" veneer ply with a sort-of keyhole cut out of the center (really just 2, 2" siamesed holes on ours) and an end-mill in the router. Even with the 3/4" ply template, the guide bushing still hits a plug now and then.
While fast, every now and then you spin a plug out; or worse, turn one into toothpicks. The time taken to replace those plugs negated the operation. Where was that little voice that should have said: "If this worked, the cabinet shops would all be doing it." ?
Maybe we just had the formula wrong ? Love to hear from someone who has made this work well..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
obviously you'd need the clearance around the bit within the router base and using a fairly small bit- maybe 1/4"- would help, though it would cut slower. a smaller bit would also have less torque and tendency to spin or yank a plug. using the smallest plugs possible should be a given.
actually, i first saw this trick years ago in a super high-end cabinet shop. mostly (but not entirely) they used it to trim dowels and plugs or patches in surfaces that were then going to be veneered over anyway. it still worked pretty slick and i've seen various other similar methods of flush trimming in books and magazines since.
a flush cut saw would be the most fail safe, but deathly slow for hundreds of plugs. i'd think unless a person was super careful and kept a razor edge on the tool, a chisel might screw up as much as a router in fractured plugs and gouged surrounding surface.
maybe running the router bit slightly diagonally into/along with the grain- like you would ideally when using a handplane? say the grain runs west-east and you slide the cutting edge into it from a somewhat sw to a ne angle, instead of more across the grain like i originally suggested?
maybe a beltsander with a sanding frame set flush? who knows- almost anything gotta be better that hand sawing or chiseling a jillion of those things.
m
An alternate method for ipe is to fill the holes with ipe sawdust. Using the trim style SS screws leaves only about 5/32 diam to fill. Little gorilla poly glue and pat the sawdust down a couple times as the poly foams. Next day go over with 60-80 grit RO sander. Nearly disappears after staining.
Thanks to all who replied here to my original post. There are some excellent suggestions.
My decking is ordered (5/4 cedar arch knotty) and on the way and I'm still not sure exactly how I want to attach it. But after digging the post holes by hand my energy stores for the project have been depleted somewhat. :)
I'll probably just face nail using SS nails. I did stumble across an interesting technique that I had not heard of before which is using 1 nail per joist in a staggered pattern. The idea here is to allow some movement of the deck boards as they shrink and expand to minimize checking. The Cal redwood association (amoung others) recommends this technique. I do remember a redwood deck I built a few years back that I nailed and glued that seem to check more/sooner than I would have liked.
Has anyone used this method? If so, any problems with cupping? I've attempted to illustrate below:
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just a few months ago a friend with ALOT of deck building experience laid the trex on a couple small entrance ways on my house and shop exactly that way. i'd never seen it done that way before either. looks a little odd but seems to work fine. i don't know if wood decking would need that much expansion and contraction allowance but i suppose it makes sense for the synthetic stuff.
m
The staggered up and down pattern is very common and recommended to reduce cupping and give the boards little room to move. The ends of the boards are double fastened though.
Yeah, that's how I installed my redwood decking. The main thing is that the wood is less likely to split as the two members shrink at different rates, but if a board won't lie flat you can add another fastener on the other side to hold it flat.
Jim
I know this won't go over big here but........on the last deck I did in cedar 50x15 which is in my unupdated website I used a sort of bugle head nail in my gun along with PL construction adhesive,
I could barely see the heads. I set my gun pressure to countersink the heads a tiny bit which eventually was just covered in outside lint crap and I then saw no heads.
I lived with that for about three years with not even a squeek.
Be well
andy
My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM