All
I have a client who wants to do a new kitchen. Old house, sloping floors, kitchen was last done in the 1950s or 60s.
Kids are out of the house, he works for the utility company and she works part time. Very blue collar people. Couple of years from retirement.
Their tastes are probably going to be conservative and simple.
I am posting to get input on the layout. I have worked up a exisiting layout on Home Designer Suite 6.04. A older HO version by Chief Architect.
I will post this file and on the next post I will post my 1st option that I worked up last night. I use this program about every 6 months so I usually have to relearn it all over again.
I tried to copy and paste for people who can’t open it but I was unable to.
Thanks for the input.
Replies
Surprisingly, my Chief Architect opened it. I had to override about 20 textures but then, it popped up!
Here's a pdf version for you.
Jim
You have opened my stuff before and moved the toilet paper holder.
Thank You.
I posted a second plan.
If you can convert it to pdf that would be great, but I know you are busy.
It's raining cats and dogs here so I am in the office this am.
Rich
Did you try cntrl/prtsc then paste into irfanview or paint?
JIM
YES.
Came up blank. I was frustrated. You taught me that Control/Print screen a couple of months ago.
Another learning curve. I tried something new and it didn't work. Oh well. LOL
Thanks
Rich
All
Option #1 and the only one that I have at this time.
I have been screwing around for 20 minutes trying to figure out how to get a copy out of the program that the rest of you can see.
this just might be one of those BT learning experiments.
She told me she has always wanted an island in her kitchen.
Rich
All
Option #1. I took a picture of it . I tried every trick I know how to and I couldn't get it to copy a picture.
Rich
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I like this option better than the first one that Jim turned into a pdf.But, I think there's room for improvement.I've never been a fan of sticking the fridge next to a wall on one side. Makes me feel hemmed in. Same thing for the stove. I figure you're more likely to spend time at those spots than you are for the brief period at a cabinet.Second thought is that there's too much of a walk between the work triangle fridge-stove-sink area. Any way to put either the stove or sink/dw on the island?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I was thinking the same things.
Roman
I don't like the fridge all by itself over against the wall either.
I could put the stove in the island and the fridge in the area that the stove is.
I'll put together different options.
Right now I have some estimating to to do.
Thanks for the input.
Rich
Older folks appreciate slide-outs for under-counter storage. Don't put doors in front of'em. Make it one unit.
Suggest slab doors for ease of cleaning.
Tom
Older folks appreciate slide-outs for under-counter storage
That me me old too then. LOL
Rich
I sure don't agree re: the fridge. The best place for it is right where you had it. BTW use the "open" for that item and check reverse; that will place the opening side next to a counter top for easy setting stuff out. I think against a wall really improves usefull area on and in the counters by reducing dead areas.
I generally allow 4' on all sides of an island. Doing that would let you make it longer.
While I like Ranges in islands, that is really most useful when the wall on the other side is open.
Don't stick the DW in that corner to the right of the sink. That makes for a long reach to put stuff away in the cupboards on the other side.
You might consider a second food preperation sink in the island. It should be singal compartment. That is one of the most sanitary inovations to come along in recient years. If so be sure to put a disposal in that one also
jimcco
I really apprieciate that you people are taking the time to make such thoughtful comments.
Last night I did some estimating and making family calls to organize christmas at grandma's. Tonight is date night with the wife, plus we have been roofing so I am a bit tired. Henceforth I have not worked on the plan.
BTW use the "open" for that item and check reverse; that will place the opening side next to a counter top for easy setting stuff out. I never tried that with a fridge on HD. At this point I am trying to get the location of the big 3 worked out. Susie had a good point about the fridge against the wall. My own kitchen has the fridge across he room and against the wall. I have to move the fridge away from the wall in order to get the drawers out ( on the hinge side) for cleaning. If the fridge stays on the wall a broom closet in the corner would be a good option.
I generally allow 4' on all sides of an island. I was trying to allow space for the stools. The flow thru from front to back will pass by the stools.
Don't stick the DW in that corner to the right of the sink. That makes for a long reach to put stuff away in the cupboards on the other side. The plan doesn't spec where the DW goes, I had thought to the left of the sink. Cabinets next to the stove will most likely be for cooking supplies.
Thank you for your thoughful reply.
Rich
All I can get open is Option 1, so I'll just go with that.
Agree that the placement of the fridge against the wall isn't good. Lots of them require more than 90d opening to get interior drawers or bins to slide out. Pushing one against a wall can mean that you have to actually pull out the unit to get crisper or freezers drawers out easily.
Also agree that the leg of the triangle from the fridge to the range is a bit long. Planning guidelines say you shouldn't exceed 9'; looks like you're going to be about 13' +/-. If you incorporate a broom or cleaning supplies closet to the left of the fridge you can reduce that leg of the triangle and accomplish moving the fridge away from the wall. With 103" to play with from center of the window, you should be able to get about 18" worth of cabinetry there. (18" for 1/2 a sink cabinet, 24" DW, 3" countertop support beside DW, 39" space for a standard 36" fridge, 1" left)
You have the option to move the range to the island. However, if you use a range, you limit the option to a slide-in unit w/ no back, which is most appropriate for islands. Since you have nice wall space, better option is a cooktop on the island and a combo wall oven/micro where the current fridge is and move the fridge to the space right of the where the current range is.
That way you tighten the triangle and raise the oven for better access. The micro can go above the wall oven, or it can be built into the wall beside the fridge where it's very handy (better). The oven is what I call a destination work zone - you don't use it often in prepping. It's where you go to cook the finished product, so it's not a part of the triangle and can be a bit farther away.
Remember that a cooking surface needs set-off space for safety and convenience. You'll want at least 12" to each side of the cooktop, preferably more. Since you'll have seating at your island, it would be a good idea to get as much counter depth there as you can in case people are sitting there while something's cooking.
You don't need to go overboard, but having cabinets that work for you is more critical as we age. Drawers (full ext/self-closing) are a better option than a standard door/drawer unit; exposed pull-outs are good, too. Provide easily accessed vertical storage for trays, cookie tins, pie pans, etc. so people don't have go through stacks of these things to get what they need.
Full-height base pull-outs are great for cleaning supplies, spices, wraps, etc. These are generally adjustable shelf unit attached to the cabinet door, so it's one operation to get what's inside. A cutting board tucked away in the top rail of the cabinet is handy.
And, since you've got such generous upper cabinet space, don't waste money on anything taller than 30" high uppers. You can units that will pull down out of upper cabinets, but they're beastly expensive and sizes are limited. You can also lower the cabinets from 54" aff to 51" if your clients are short or have trouble reaching. My wall cabinets have been set at that height for years; unless your local codes set the height (most don't), there should be no problem.
OK, too much info, as usual. Sorry, but I love kitchens!
susie
OK, too much info, as usual. Sorry, but I love kitchens!
Not at all.
Good info. I love to cook, so I am sensitive to need for counter space next to fridge, nest to range top.
Never thought of the oven as a destination. Always lived with a standard range/oven.
I also work with the handicapped. But You don't have to be old or handicapped to appreciate pull out drawers and such.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
get open is Option 1. The other attachment is the existing kitchen. All cabinets along one wall (north). Fridge was turned 90 degrees and on the west wall. Blocking cabinets in the corner. Oven/range was where the pantry is drawn in option 1.
Very odd, inconvenient layout. Alot of cabinet space but a very long triangle.
Rich
You're very welcome!
I do agree that the original was very weird - what a waste of the generous space that's available!
Hope things work out well for you!
the plan that you took a picture of looks good it has a better work triangle Do you have the job yet ?? the reason i ask is the paln has a nice layout but i feel you can refine the island and pantry, can you use metal furring around the chimmney ? you would gain more space and possibly put some pantry cabinets with a small desk area. wiil the island have bar stools or chairs ?? you can use a reduced depth base cabinet for the island and gain more space , i have put narrow bases with a cutting block on one section and put the seating at the end of the island
by the way i have cheif architect and it opend up for me . what state are you in i am better at speaking then typing LOL
woody
the plan that you took a picture of looks ( the pdf is the existing kitchen)good it has a better work triangle Do you have the job yet ?? No. just putting together a prelim price. Job also has total bathroom redo and 4 bedrooms that need cracked plaster miracle work. the reason i ask is the paln has a nice layout (it's too long from the stove to the fridge the others are right, the fridge against the wall is a bad idea.) but i feel you can refine the island and pantry, can you use metal furring around the chimmney ?( it's already plastered and the duct chaseway is closed in) you would gain more space and possibly put some pantry cabinets with a small desk area. wiil the island have bar stools or chairs ?? Stools, I think. you can use a reduced depth base cabinet for the island and gain more space , i have put narrow bases with a cutting block on one section and put the seating at the end of the island Now that's a good idea.
by the way i have cheif architect and it opend up for me . what state are you in i am better at speaking then typing LOL My profile says I live in NW IA LOL Really I am a smart dog in Brooklyn in a dirty little apartment LOL
I need to get better design software. But I don't use it that often.
Rich
Edited 9/2/2008 9:05 pm ET by cargin
that program is fine !! i designed houses with 3d home architect when it first came out now i have 9.5 base version of chief architect
DONT GIVE THE IDEAS OUT !! WIN THERE CONFIDENCE THEN BE PREPARED WTH PRICES FOR THE ADS AFTER YOU GET THE JOB
For the amount you use, that program is fine. I agree...don't give out any ideas without some form of comittment. If you haven't set the table right and you have to show up with that sketch, only bring one copy and don't leave it without getting some form of payment for it. Don't forget to include the consultation fees from your BT brothers. We've chipped in our two cents and we want you to get paid dang it!
Jim
I just got pens with my name on them. I'd love to send you one for your consulting fees.
Rich
when i built my kitchen, its is the worst design ever. in fact I dont think a kitchen can be built here. that why I,m still on plywood.
No...I want two cents !
Jim
No...I want two cents !
Your 2 cents. thanks for the input.
a 1909 Lincoln and a 1898 Indian Head
Rich
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LOL! Is that a 1090 S vdb? Heres a great story about collecting coins. I used to collect coins. As kids, we used to ride our bikes to the bank, buy pennies and ride home and sort them. When I turned 14, I hit the jackpot when I took a job at Baskin Robbins. Every day I worked, especially during the slow times in winter, I'd sit at the back desk and check every coin in the rolls. When I found a good one, I'd substitute my own coin. My collection was growing nicely. I worked there for two years, and never tried to hide what I was doing so I suppose some regular customers knew about my hobby although I don't remember discussing it with anyone. Anyways, one slow winter, and elderly gentleman walked in and ordered an ice cream cone. He paid and as he was leaving he gently slid a "tip" over the counter to me. Since this was the very first tip I ever received, I thanked him and took the coin. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the date, which I always did, and I saw that it was a *1898 Indian "V" nickel!!!!!! I thought I had hit the jackpot LOL! To this day, that is still my most prized possession even though it wasn't particularly valuable then, or now. It was just a cooooooool coin! *I don't remembe the exact date. It's been a while since I looked at my coin collection, which really isn't that extensive or valuable.
I got a five gallon bucket full of pennies sitting on my back porch, no body will steal them, they are not worth anything
Jim
I tried to take pics of the face and the dates, but they didn't come out clearly.
The VDB is there but it is very faint. But it is not a VDB S.
I did the same thing as you with my paper route and then my job a the grocery store. And every job since then. In the 60's there were alot of Wheat Backs around, and Mercury Head Dimes.
Once I got a $20 silver Certificate. How is a kid with not enough money for a coke going to get $20 to exchange that? Somehow I did and I have it today
I highly prize my meager collection and will pass it one some day to the kids.
Glad you enjoyed the trip down memory lane.
Rich
are they going to use crown ?? if they do watch out for the crown returns into doorway trim and window trim ,also i didnt notcie any fillers by the upper cabinets
woody
are they going to use crown ?? Haven't crossed that bridge yet. if they do watch out for the crown returns into doorway trim and window trim , good point to remember when doing layout also i didnt notcie any fillers by the upper cabinets Just trying to figure out where the big 3 should go
Rich
don't know the entire conditions but aside from the logistics of work triangles, appliance location etc. designing in plan is rather limiting because it doesn't give a true sense of what the kitchen will "feel" like.
Another suggestion is perhaps more windows if budget allows. Looks like kitchen is connected to porch, is there the opportunity to put in some windows there for additional daylight and to visually expand the space. Might also consider (if they are up for it a more flowing plan (i.e. eliminate doors to living room and dining room.) or create visual barriers but still allow space to flow from one area to another.
ted
don't know the entire conditions but aside from the logistics of work triangles, appliance location etc. designing in plan is rather limiting because it doesn't give a true sense of what the kitchen will "feel" like.Another suggestion is perhaps more windows if budget allows. Looks like kitchen is connected to porch, is there the opportunity to put in some windows there for additional daylight and to visually expand the space. Porch is a poor choice of words on my part. It was a porch that was closed in to be back entry, laundry and bathroom area.
Might also consider (if they are up for it a more flowing plan (i.e. eliminate doors to living room and dining room.) or create visual barriers but still allow space to flow from one area to another. Center wall ( where chimney is) is a load bearing wall. Doors don't actually exist. It was the easiest way for me to create doorways. There orginally were doors there but they have long since been removed. Front entry has a stairway behind the kitchen wall. The only flow as I see it would be to remove the wall where the pantry is drawn. I don't think we can move the chimney and ductwork chaseway cheaply. Brick chimney is not used anymore, but it is a 2 story house. Chimney is remove down to the attic level.
Thank you for taking the time to consider the plans and to comment.
Rich
Strictly personal opinion because I cook & have visited ALOT of open houses/builder demonstration houses in the last few months.I dislike islands that are FIXED. If you are putting in an island make it movable. One house (over 600K)had a modest kitchen & a smallish fixed island. If you stood in front of the double oven and opened the door, your butt slammed into the island. Why? Because you naturally take a step back when you open the oven door & remove something from it. The 2nd house was even more expensive & had a MONSTER kitchen. In the center was a HUGE island (cherry wood) & it took FOREVER to go around the damn island to get from the sink to the fridge & stove. Pain in the buttocks!My current kitchen is called a galley kitchen. It is small enough that I can stand in the center, pivot on one foot & turn between the sink & fridge/stove. I have a small island on wheels (maybe 2x3ft)which also lock. The locking part is important. I use it as a cart for my Kitchenaid mixer. It's like a small piece of portable counter. My 5 cents (inflation<G>).New neighbors avec small child & dog in the bad karma house next door. Fingers crossed that salt was tossed & sage was burnt during the badly needed renovation. (And I am NOT bitter about not being able to buy it, tear it down & increase my acreage...well almost acreage)
One more thing, tho this maybe should be under the Pet Peeve thread<G>, I hatehatehate kitchens where the cabinets do not go up to the ceiling. They have a stupid gap of about a foot between the top of the cabinet & the ceiling. Yesyes you can display stuff but that is a perfect trap to collect grease & dust.Yes I was close enough to hear the explosion this morning in Frankfort IL. One house totally destroyed(elderly couple killed), 10 others damaged, utilities shutoff & investigation ongoing. It was a very sharp boom.
plantlust,Most times it's not practical to have cabinets go to the ceiling when those ceiling are above 8-1/2 or 9 feet.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
It is practical if you have a small kitchen. You are utilizing ALL available space for storage. As a cook, you put your least used tools(cookie cutters, turkey platter, Christmas porcelain etc) up there. Then you have a small (2step) foldable ladder tucked away into a niche. At least that's what I do, plus I like the unbroken look.Yes I was close enough to hear the explosion this morning in Frankfort IL. One house totally destroyed(elderly couple killed), 10 others damaged, utilities shutoff & investigation ongoing. It was a very sharp boom.
With a 9-1/2 ft ceiling you'd need more then a 2 step stool to get to the top cabinets.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Hmmmm. Good point. My ceiling is 8ft something, taller than a "normal" home but not as tall as some.
Yes I was close enough to hear the explosion this morning in Frankfort IL. One house totally destroyed(elderly couple killed), 10 others damaged, utilities shutoff & investigation ongoing. It was a very sharp boom.
plantlust
we have cabinets that go to the ceiling and we rarely use them.
Soffits seem to be "old school"
New kitchen design seems to favor the open look, with up lighting and varied wall cabinet height.
But you are right, it is a dust trap.
Rich
cargin,I'm still playing around ;-) I got tired of the white. Moved the ceiling up to 9.5' used 42" with crown. Added some display cabinets over the window. I think that window can be a real focal point.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Joe
Thanks for the good ideas.
That kitchen looks great. Still not sure about the long triangle.
Also need to vent the stove to the outside. Back side of the stove wall is the stair way.
That leaves me with the options of going thru the cabinets or opening a stud cavity and running it to the basement and then outside.
Thanks again.
Rich
Rich,So is it OK to move stuff around? http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Joe
That's why I put it out there, to figure out the best triangle or the best layout of fridge sink and oven and island..
Move all you want.
Thanks for the input
Rich
So which entry would be the main one used by the client? Do they bring groceries in the front entry or the back porch? It's nice to have a landing zone to drop the food then distribute it to the pantry and refer. Also is this front entry like the main entrance into the house? Do they use the back porch for BBQ or entertaining? The kitchen can be the main hub of the house so it needs to flow and have some purpose not just sink, stove refridgerator. Should be comfortable to work in and easy to move in and about.
jeff
You are right about the hub. Especially for guy who like to eat. LOL
At holidays everyone is in the kitchen. LOL twice
The back porch leads to a detached garage, so I assume that is the landing zone.
Front entry leads to the stairs and the bedrooms, but the common entry is probably the back porch. Which is poorly designed and a narrow set of steps to it.
Don't strike me as the entertaining type of people. They have lived 3 blocks away from me for the last 20 years and I have never seen her before. I know him by sight only. And this is a fairly small town.
My wife has been taking about this woman at the exercise place for a year but I have never seen her before. Strange.
Should be comfortable to work in and easy to move in and about. That's why I am concerned about the island in the traffic flow area.
Rich
cargin,There is a lot to think about in this kitchen. . . For one, what’s the budget like? Once you talk about relocating plumbing and electrical lines things start to move up. . . I’m sure you designed/drew it the way you did was because that is where the existing mechanicals are.If you move a cooktop to the island then you will need to add gas, electric and ventilation to it. Let alone that no one will be able to sit at it as you show. Also, by moving the cook top to the island and swapping out the refrig for a wall oven you have the same condition with needing to add gas and electric for the oven and most likely water for the refrig.For starters you might think about bringing the refrig onto the wall adjacent to it where it is now to get it out of the corner. You’d then be able to add both upper and lower cabinet space and counter space as well. The work triangle in this kitchen is a bit screwy to begin with and the island is most likely going to be a prep area anyway and that will improve the triangle.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 9/2/2008 10:50 pm ET by Joe
A few more quick looks.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Joe
How did you do that?
Do you have Chief Architect?
I was trying to get the Fridge out of that corner. Drives the HO nuts because they can't get into the cabinets.
My notes say I have 77" from the corner to the trim of the back door.
So I could fit a 36" Lazy susan and a 36" fridge in that corner.
With Home design 6.0 I can't manage the countertop differently than the cabinet below it. Henceforth I can't do a 12" overhang for eating area.
Thanks for the input and the new design.
Boy I am going to own you 4 cents.
Nice website by the way.
Rich
cargin,Thanks, my sites been a work in progress for about 10 years now ;-).I do have CA and I have a sophomores skill level with it, though I did use it to design my house when it burnt down and my skill level was much better then.I'd like to see at least a 36" base and a 6" something before the rerig panel as to help easy the "cave" look. So I opted for a 33" refrig. That may or may not work for you so you'd have to see how it goes. Also I'd think about increasing the upper cabinet heights to 36" and reworking the stove wall as well, but those are just my opinions.I'll play around with it if you don't mind.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 9/2/2008 11:29 pm ET by Joe
joe
I have 9.5' ceiling to work with. Big soffits there now.
My local kitchen designer said 42" upper cabinets. My local girl is the bookkeeper that the local yard sent off to school for a couple of training sessions. This her 1st year planning kitchens. I am willing to give her a chance. A good kitchen design girl is fun to work with.
Susie kitchen says stay with the 30" cabinets.
I'll play around with it if you don't mind.
I don't mind. This is fun.
Everytime I use Home Design 9 or any program I get better. So I could just take this to the yard and say figure it. But I learn more if I play with the layout. The more I get into the layout the more I can visualize the job and the steps to complete it.
Rich
With 9.5' ceiling the design possibility's really open up ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 9/2/2008 11:55 pm ET by Joe
Joe
I got this reply from you with the tricked out kitchen. It was late and I did not have time the morning to reply.
WOW. that is a super looking kitchen you drew. IMPRESSED
Thanks for the replies.
Rich
cargin,Thanks,Actually it's my kitchen and hopefully I'll finish it before the decade ends ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Nice work on the rendering Joe.
Thanks Jim.That's not from CA by the way, it's from eCabinets.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
My local kitchen designer said 42" upper cabinets ... Susie kitchen says stay with the 30" cabinets
I'd split the difference and use 36"--mostly as you get an extra adjustable shelf that way.
But also because 102 - 54 - 36 is 12" which leaves room for up lighting on the tops of the cabinets and provides some storage/display space (in case the customer would like to train airplant or the like along, or has ceramics or the like).
But, mostly since I really like the balance of a down light under the cabinet and a matching uplight gives to a kitchen.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Mac
But, mostly since I really like the balance of a down light under the cabinet and a matching uplight gives to a kitchen.
I hadn't given up lighting a thought. What kind of lights would you use. Hockey puck halogens, rope lighting, flourecents?
I don't like the heat from halogens. 12v converters interfer with radio signals, esp AM.
thanks for bringing up a concern that hadn't even crossed mind.
Most people around here have pretty simple tastes. that is unless the are addicted to HGTV then watch out. LOL
Rich
Rich,Had the hockey puck halogens in my last house and hated them. Way too hot for my taste. They'd heat up and the cover lenses would pop off. Plus the residual heat meant you couldn't store things that would melt in the cabinet above them.What about something like this?
http://www.ardeelighting.com/page.php?id=clikstrip2I like the elbow island you've got in the back now. And I'd agree that some windows there looking out onto the porch would be nice.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Roman
I'm glad someone else doesn't like halogens.
In http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=109206.44 I already apologized for my poor choice of wording of the porch area.
That area is an old porch closed in, 1/2 bath, laundry and entry from the back.
Not a possible window area. Sorry.
Thanks for the input. I was doing a estimate today where I list out the steps of the jobs, and discussion here has already helped me to visualize the job and include things I may have left out. Like running the range vent thru the floorand out the side wall.
Thanks again.
Rich
I hadn't given up lighting a thought. What kind of lights would you use. Hockey puck halogens, rope lighting, flourecents?
Short answer: Yes.
Different folks want different fixtures. I usually suggest a balanced approach, but sometimes practicality interferes with that choice. in compact kitchens, I usually try and set both the u/c work lights and the o/c effects lights on the same switch, to limit how many switches are on the wall, too. If that switch is a dimmer, that tends to drive the fixture choice.
So, means one of about everything has been used, from ceramic bases and tube lamps to halides and the like. Rope lighting can be nicely inexpensive and readily adaptable. Major thing with rope lights is a really good casework builder (or installer; or, best yet, builder-installer), and you need an electrician that likes working "out of the box" a bit, too.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
joe
just playing around here.
Not saying it's a good concept, but I changed it all up and put a pennisula to the left of the sink just to see how it would feel.
Drawbacks are, no place for a microwave, stove has to vent thru the floor, fewer upper cabinets and tight by the sink.
Good night.
Rich
Joe and all
I figured out how to put plans into Picasa, so for the benefit of the non Chief A users i will post a pick of plan I was toying with. I just wanted to see if I could put a pennisula to the left of the sink and make the working area smaller.
In earlier post I commented on concerns, but like I said I was just toying around.
Rich
With your tall ceiling, you can place a row of uppers, hung from the ceiling, from the wall then across that dining bar, the run with the range.
The hood can be a built-in, and its backside, facing the space behind the seats at the bar, can be done up as a panel. I would envision a straight line bottom to the whole shebang, a deep light rail with its bottom matching the bottom trim to the hood assembly, and some really nice low voltage lighting under.
A nice touch would be for the uppers to have inside lighting, divided lite glass doors on both sides, and shelves of 3/8" tempered glass.
The structure required to carry it all could be a pair of beams up against the ceiling. The space between beams can be dropped and where above cabs, can be the chase space for the hood vent.
Edit: this is in response to the plan shown in your post #36.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 9/6/2008 2:17 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Rich,This would be my first offering as a complete design for this space. The work triangle is good and within NKBA standands. I did push the range over to right to balance the upper cabinetry and as not to feel to close to the corner when working at the range.Uppers are 42" with a single level of crown. The bases are also two drawer full rollouts where applicable. This is becoming the standard for base cabinets as it provides better and easier access to all items in the cabinet. The pantry came in as more of a "center", baking, coffee, wine or alike and that concept can be further explored which I'm doing in a second offering. It's now raining was I'll have some time to play with this.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 9/6/2008 2:58 pm ET by Joe
Thats great Joe. Which program churned that out?
Jim,Did you miss the meeting ;-)CA.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Joe
This is the plan I drew up in Home Design 6.0. I used your idea for the LS in the left corner and the fridge next to it.
The program is limited, and I limit it even more.
In other plans I have set the wall height, but this plan the wall dialog box doesn't give me the option. Or I am looking in the wrong place. (Most likely)
I have alot going on with invoices to be sent, family or other estimates, and when I hit a problem in Home Design sometimes it's better to work with imperfect plan than to spend hours searching for the answer. (My kids think I am computer challenged)
My kitchen gal will have some plans drawn up too, but I like to get into the design (for estimating purposes) and learn to use this program.
That's for your input.
Rich
Joe
Here is similar plan with the fridge turned 90 degrees.
Sorry Susie I should have put a broom closet in the corner.
And I can't switch the swing on the fridge.
Rich
Joe
Another option. Called #4. Don't know why.
Rich
Rich,In all honesty I'm not feeling the love (as Emerald would say) for the peninsular plan. I do like the idea of the frig turned onto the wall and the range across from it. I think it makes best use of the space.Also is the a reason for the dishwasher on the left side of the sink, is the HO left handed?There is something to remember about design that there really is no right or wrong just a matter of how thing strike people (their tastes).http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/6/2008 4:49 pm ET by Joe
joe
In all honesty I'm not feeling the love (as Emerald would say) for the peninsular plan.
Me neither, it my least favorite plan.
You won't hurt my feelings, this is the internet. I can walk away at any time.
I was just playing with the concept of getting the fridge in the east wall, and a tighter working space.
I don't like the idea of the cooktop on the eating pennisula.
DW was located to the left because someone suggested earlier that it would be a long reach putting dishes away ( assuming the dishes went in the left wall cabs, and the right wall cabs would be used for food and spices next to the stove).
I spent 1 1/2 hrs on the 1st interview on kitchen, bathroom remodel and repairing walls upstairs. With a rabbit trail about stripping woodwork.
Never though thought to ask HO what was her dominant hand.
I have never lived with a DW, island or pennisula kitchen.
My kitchen is about 6' long, stove and 30" cab on one side and sink and cabinets on the other with a 32" space inbetween and then the fridge across the room.
I want to remodel it some day but my wife is reluctant to go thru the hassle of dust and remodeling.
Rich
Rich,One of the more interesting aspects of that kitchen is the window because of it's size. Here are two other concepts for that window.The subtle difference between the two is that in one the counter cabinets are increased in depth giving them of a tower look (sinkwall3). Another interesting thing about design is if you show a design to three people; one will love it, one will hate and one will be indifferent ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
That is good stuff there Joe!
Thanks Jim.I'm not just another pretty face you know ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe
Those drawings make the window the focal point of the kitchen.
I have been focused on placing the appliances, and you have turned the discussioon on it's head by making the window a focal point. I love it.
I love what you did with the pantry in an earlier post.
I wasn't thinking beyond a 5' double outswing 6 panel door with shelving in the closet area. You really put some pizzazz to that area. That only adds a couple grand to the project. LOL
Thanks for the input.
My son Tim and I are watching the Florida and Miami game tonight and having alot of fun. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96278.105
I was thinking of flipping the pennisula. So when you enter from the back door, probably the most common entry) you would enter a U shaped kitchen with the pantry to the right and the kitchen before you. Just for fun.
I still like your plan best with the LS and the fridge in the left corner.
Rich
Rich
Rich,There's only some many places the appl's can go and I think the layout I have works, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't entertain other options.Also, I didn't mean to run up the costs of the kitchen although I do have a tendency to do that ;-).I'm glad you like the pantry, but I do have another concept for it that I work out and post. The one stop that's going to have to stay pretty much as is (I hate saying that cause after I do I usually see something that works) is the range area.I hope you get the project and you can incorporate some of these things into it.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe
Also, I didn't mean to run up the costs of the kitchen although I do have a tendency to do that ;-).
It's all in digital at this point.
I hope you get the project and you can incorporate some of these things into it.
I think if they do it it I'll get it, but I have thought that before.
I am working up some preliminary #s then i will meet with them a 2nd time.
We are doing some big roof jobs right now, all fall actually. I pretty wasted at the end of the day after that. Probably have to meet on the weekend.
Rich
Joe
This is more what I had in mind for a pantry.
View Image
But you wanted to turn it into a show piece in post
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=109206.63
pic number 13
A had in mind a place for the crock pots, the vacuum cleaner and the shotguns.
View Image
LOL
Rich
Rich,Now I know that in every kitchen there just has to be a place for the shotguns! ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
And with the clip-on toekicks we use, there is plenty of storage for the handguns, too.
BTW, are all your renderings done using eCabs? I just cannot get into the room layout tedium with that software. I just do cabs, then the job batch function.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Gene,Everything is done in CA since that's what both Jim and to some extent Rich are using. CA has GREAT kitchen design features and I can whip one up in 10 min's.eCab's on the other has good design features and great build features and it takes about an hour for me to draw one with it. If I'm going to build a kitchen I develop it in eCab's, if I'm just designing and exploring ideas I like to use CA.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Gene
Thanks for the input.
I like the idea.
The vent hood will require removing ceiling SR in order to vent outside. So I could install blocking between the joists to carry the cabinets.
I like the idea of glass cabinets with interior lighting.
Rich
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Has he expired?
Gene the artist died. This Gene is still kicking.
The logo, his (our name superimposed) is one of his paintings. The orig is probably something like 5 feet tall by 6.5 feet wide. Some of his pieces are in the National Gallery in D.C. That's his quote, about the stripe. Taunton SYSOP made me tone it down.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 9/6/2008 4:46 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Also do they need a place to eat in the kitchen ? The existing kitchen shows a table in there.
jeff
They want to eat in the kitchen. Even if it is a small table.
They do have a formal dining room.
The existing kitchen has problems.
The vinyl is top of the line from the 1960's. Perfect finish on it, just dated. Very dated.
Rich
Rich,
I was going over the layout and realized that there is nothing wrong with the work triangle in that kitchen. The max triangle recommended by the NKBA is 26ft, that one is just under 23ft with the longest leg under 11ft which is another good thing.
Also what's the story with the closet, is it staying or can it be incorporated into the design?
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/5/2008 3:46 pm ET by Joe
Joe
It's raining here now and we are roofing. It's friday afternoon and all the inside jobs I could do are too complicated to start at the end of the week so you caught me at home.
I will repost the exisiting kitchen layout.
That corner has the stove, 2 small cabinets and a dead space (between kitchen and DR) behind it (about 10-12") where I suspect some plumbing runs up to the bathroom upstairs.
Ackward layout. So I thought I would install 5' double swinging doors and put a pantry in that alcove.
That area could be used for a dining area or a very small table and 2 chairs. Concern would be traffic flow.
But I think a pantry would be the best use of space.
Rich