DILEMMA-Contracted Cedar Shingle Installation
hello. i am having a contractor put on cedar shingles through a city loan program. i was on my honeymoon when they started and they are about halfway done with the house now. i have never installed shingles before but on the things ive seen online i am a bit concerned about the installation. the 1865 house in wisconsin had old painted cedar shingles and they recomended putting a quarter inch fanfold insullation across the entire house and then installing the shingles on top. from the little i have read and some common sense, it seems like this will not allow the shingles to dry out and creat some problems down the road. they have told me they follwed the manufactuerers instructions, but everything i saw said you need something that will let air flow behind the shingle. when asked about this, the contractor said that the fanfold insullation achieves this purpose. it sounds a bit fishy to me because i thought insullation would do the opposite. please offer any help you can, i want to trust that they know what they are doing, but it is stressing me out that i wont really know if this type of installation is quality till a few years down the road when problems show up.
again, they nailed down old, loose shingles, put 1/4” fanfold insullation over whole house, and are using 2” staples to secure the new true north white cedar shingles directly on top of insullation.
thanks in advance for your help.
erik neave
Replies
order of magnitude
between what they are doing and what should be done
but....... your budget may not afford what should be done
1st
all the old shingles should be stripped to the sheathing
then the flashings around trim , windows , doors should be replaced
house wrapped with either 15 lb or 30 felt
all the trim, casings, sills... should be scraped in accordance with the RRP rules of the EPA
your house has lead paint on it... i guarantee
then the trim should be primed and painted... or they can wrap the trim in aluminum if that is your cup of tea
your painted cedar shingles have lead paint on them... but they can be disposed of.
next..... ready to shingle
1st... you are used to a painted shingle, which to me sounds like a very formal look
if you are going to use a natural , no finish, white cedar shingle, you may or may not like the final appearance
white cedars are not a very stable shingle... especially on the south side they love to curl.. often look like potatoe chips were used instead of shingles... and being a natural material, they will color to a color of their own choosing, which will NOT be uniform
if you want a uniform color you need to use a factory finished or site- dipped shingle, either of these will also help with the curling
a common source of factory finished shingles is Maibec
or...... maybe you don't really have a white cedar shingle anyways... if they are painted, chances are pretty good that they are really Red Cedar shingles
a couple things will help in this discussion... what is the exposure on your existing siding ?
is it 5" .... 6"....... 8"....... 10" ?????
if this contractor does what he's saying .... he is going to bury all your trim... he's a hack
who wrote your specs ? where did you get this guy from ?
order of magnitude
or perhaps i'm being too harsh.. doesn't sound like you are going to get a very good job
further info
thank you mike for your response. i am kind of freaking out at this point because they are nailing in shingles as we speak. the company was one of two that bid through a lead abatement program through my city. they are called shefchik energy services from green bay wisconsin. the reason they are doing this is because of the lead paint. honestly, the windows they put in look pretty good. they built out the trim and are covering it with aluminum (not my first choice, but i was talked into it) i do know the look of white cedar gone natural grey. i like it. we just spent our honeymoon on the east coast and saw a bunch of naturally weatherd cedar and it is definitely our cup of tea. the thing i am really concerned about is whether or not moisture is going to get trapped and not allow the shingles to dry out with the way they are doing things. could you please speak to that? they told me leaving the old shingles on would be fine. maybe that is because there is no sheathing underneath (i checked) the exsisting siding is put on over even older wood clapboard siding. the other thing i noticed is that the staples in some cases are countersinking a little bit. they said it wont be a problem, but things online i read said it will be. is that a big deal?
realistically, how long will a job done like this hold up compared to the way you propose and what are the major concerns. rot?
if you dont mind giving some more advice, i would be greatly appreciative.
erik
also, do i have any rights to tell them to do it over/better? im not sure how to approach this....
arrrgghhh
Erik... you're there, i'm here..
since this is a lead -abatement job, you're covered as far as that goes....
and really ? no sheathing... just clapboards , huh ?
short of taking it down to the studs, you're kinda stuck.
you have now given me more information than your original post:
it sounds like you have studs, no sheathing, clapboards, existing white cedar shingles, a fan-fold foam layer, and new white cedar shingles.................
they also left the existing window jambs and sill, interior casing, exterior casing.... and installed replacement windows, since the old sash were covered with lead paint and the old clapboards and the old WC shingles are covered with lead paint
the fan-fold foam is not a vapor barrier, it allows moisture vapor to move thru it.. it's purpose is to attempt to level the layer of wc shingles underneath
.
realistically.... i don't know what other choices you have other than choosing a different siding ... like fiber cement , or vinyl.. or red cedar, etc
this job is not really about new siding, it is really about lead-abatement....
the only caveat i have at this point is wondering how they intend to flash the siding and the trim...
moisture within the house can dry to the interior and to the exterior ( in season )....
the only water you have to worry about is bulk water and rainwater.... the siding and flashing is supposed to handle that
your contractor has to have a plan for his flashing / trim wrapping that solves the threat of leaks
if you liked the soft grey look of white cedar ( the romantic "Cape Cod look " )..... use a mix of bleaching oil and silver grey.. Cabot's makes a good product..... this will weather to the look you want
leaving it up to nature will give you other colors and stains unlike your memory of the houses back east
as to leaks and flashing.. the devil is in the details.. every horizontal ledge, every vertical seam, every window .. every door.. every place the siding meets a roof
" the other thing i noticed
" the other thing i noticed is that the staples in some cases are countersinking a little bit."
That is because they are using stapels. It is a "feature" of hack work. The cedar buearau is very specific that nail head mujst NOT penetrate the wood fibre. That shortens the lifespan of an installation.
With all the layering you have going on, you have one hack job over top of another.
Unfortunately tht is part and parcel with most of these govt run "programs"
i want to thank both of you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts. i am meeting with the head contractor today to discuss some of my concerns. it will be helpful to bring the knowledge you have offered. like you said, there may not be much else to do about it at this point but every bit of direction helps.
it looks like they are going around the whole roof line overhang with aluminum flashing coming under the uppermost shingles. i cant realy tell about around the windows since it was mostly done by the time i got there.
the more detailed info on what fanfold will actually do and not do was also helpful.
thanks
erik neave
so...
what's the exposure on your shingles ?
what size shingles are they installing ?
Like pulling teeth Mike
Keep at it.
ain't it grand ?
No, they don't have a clue
"they nailed down old, loose shingles, put 1/4'' fanfold insullation over whole house, and are using 2'' staples to secure"
They should start by tearing off the old shingles
The fanfold is OK but requires a breather between it and cedars
Staples are terrible for cedars
what is the worst thing about using the staples?
the exposure is hard to tell... some are around 5'' and some more like 8" the rows arent really even. and the total shingle length is about 16''
i couldnt find a tag on the bundle. maybe it was already removed...
erik
Staples break the grain of the wood so it will niot hold as well. Worse on roofs than on siding, but either will have shorter life span with staples.
Exposures should be consistent and even, nio more than 6" for a 16-18" cedar
Variance like that - this contractor is a cdertified hack
the rows are supposed to be
even...and planned so they hit features...you lay out with a story pole...so you can hit arcitectural features...like the tops of windows...or window sills
a 16" shingle should have a maximum exposure of 5 1/2 "....not 8"
( < 1/3 of the shingle length )
the courses should vary by more than 1/2 " from course to course.....we like to keep them within 1/4"
it goes without saying that the have to be level all the way around the house
Hey Mike - LOL
"goes without saying that the have to be level all the way around the house"
So you've seen some of those that look like run by a drunken sailor down that way too, eh?
No offense meant to sailors of ourse
you know
we used to set up a transit and strike a level line all around the house for "gospel"
nowadays we use our $99 laser, set up on each floor, swing the compass , drive a few nails
and we have a "gospel line" for each floor.. ain't technology great ?
last time i had words with one of my guys was about 20 years ago.... they had shingled a new addition... missed the old coursing by about 3/4" at the meeting point
he insisted it wasn't his fault, he had used a level.. i point ed our to him the difference in coursing....and the idea of " using a level and being level
I used a water level when we resided. A laser (which didn't really exist at the time) can't see around corners.
The places I work on are too old to use a level of any kind for siding. You have to go dot-to-dot so it looks level
trompe l'oile
(sic )...fool the eye...
perspective....parallel...hollywood side
you drive by something and say ' geesh...couldn't they see that ?"
"How well the shingles will
"How well the shingles will work out on the fanfold is hard to say."
It is only hard to say for someone who hasn't dealt much with cedars
The only way i will perfoirm well is if the climate is dry and there is a larger roof overhang and plenty of ttrees to shelter against wind driven rain
hack
As Mike Smith said HACK. There is no way this job could be right. The build up would look ridiculous. Also included in what Mike said about stripping the old siding the sheathing should be re nailed, something I think very few contractors due after removing siding and roofing. A solid underlayment is the secret to any good job!
didnot read entire post
Sorry did not realize there was no sheathing., but multiple layers are a terrible idea as our staples. I live on the northshore of Ma.
and lived on Nantucket for several years where everthing was cedar shingles. Staples were always a problem due to lack of a big enough stagger on siding as well as breaking the grain. We use ring shanked galvy or stainless and never exceed 5" exposure. Also splines on protrusions are critical. We also make benchmarks and story poles to ensure hitting tops and bottoms of windows, simple math. Old houses may require stringing and pinning the line in more than one place to "look level" when the house windows are out of level