Has anyone had any experience installing and cutting granite countertops? A friend and I are looking into it as it would save a bundle, but I’m not sure what potential issues I may run into, seeing as I’ve never cut granite before.
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Potential issues:
Dust
breakage
dust
tooling
dust
polishing
dust
did I mention breakage
How about chipping?
not only that, it's heavy!
Excellence is its own reward!
We just make up a template and let the fabricators make the cuts. There is a charge of $300 per sink hole and a charge for the edges from $10 to $25 per linear foot depending on the profile. I cannot imagine doing it any cheaper myself and I can very easily envision an expensive goof. We pick up our tops at the quarry (or pay our local lumberyard to do it) and they have sent a guy to our jobsite to make a field change for a nominal charge. Watching this pro casually drill a one inch hole through the top convinced me to stay out of the way.
I have to agree with the prior poster. Paid ~$35.00 linear foot for my [granite] Dakota Mahogany countertops (friend price, but I made the templates) and one was 30" deep. Could not have done it cheaper myself. Best advice I can give, make friends with people in the trades. (BTW, I really mean friends, not casual acquaintances).
Just got a new driveway and major landscaping done yesterday. Four large dump trucks (14 wheelers) of gravel and top soil, 130' driveway, 9 hour job, friend price $1500. (The non friend price was $5K) I can post pics if anybody is interested.
Jon
Edited 5/14/2003 10:22:48 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 5/14/2003 10:25:11 PM ET by WorkshopJon
See 300$$ a sink hole seems mighty expensive considering the granite slabs we are looking at are 100$$ for an 8'x2'. I figure at that price I can buy the diamond drills, and an extra slab in case I goof. I think the dust can be controlled, but I'm worried about the actual cut. How long does it take to cut through granite.
I had to trim one edge slightly. It was 1.25" thick and took about 5 minutes to cut 24", but that was for an edge that was not to be polished.
I think you are right about the prior poster's cost on the sink cutout (seemed pricey), but labor is probably not the bulk of the cost. The stone cutter is assuming the risk of ruining a slab due to the fragile nature of the, cut and finished product, not to mention transporting it. If you don't have a friend in the business, then go for it. Even if you ruin a slab you are probable ahead $wise.
But...I still think its better to know people who have experience and are willing to do a favor.
Jon
Edited 5/15/2003 12:58:31 AM ET by WorkshopJon
When you start trying to guage on how much a cut out costs, there are many things to keep in mind. Whether or not the top need steel rod reinforcement arount the front and back openings, the shape of a cut out, the type of material, the risk factor of breakage(sh#t happens). If you want to save money, do it yourself and when you break it, you won't think that there origional charge was too much. I have been on jobs where a piece broke or the homeowner make changes/additions and there was no more material available ANYWHERE. Let the pros do there job, they have the tools.
By the way, have you ever tried to move a slab without a forklift and a sling?
"When you start trying to guage on how much a cut out costs, there are many things to keep in mind......Let the pros do there job, they have the tools.
By the way, have you ever tried to move a slab without a forklift and a sling?"
Geez, where did that come from. I Though I , like all the other posters were trying to steer this person in the direction of having a pro do the job. He did ask if I'd ever cut granite and I responded with a qualified answer.
BTY, Yes I have moved slabs before. Every countertop in my kitchen, and one was 9' X 30" X 1.25". Took four guys to carry it.
Jon
Piffin is right, IMHO. Granite is pretty hard. Buying the tools to do the cutting, grinding & polishing is only one part of the equation, the learning curve is another. Another part is that fabricators usually have good, cheap sources of supply and could probably buy and fabricate the slab for the same price you would pay for the material itself (at least that's the situation in my area). The stone suppliers around here (PacNW) are pretty reluctant to sell to anyone but a licensed fabricator, except at near retail prices. I guess it's that 'you scratch my back, etc..) factor.
I've installed a few marble, limestone type tops with my own tools that have come out very nice, but granite is another thing altogether. Good luck.
Granite countertops made from a slab is NOT a do-it-yourself project!
Forget about cutting it
Forget about polishing it
Forget about breaking it
How the hell are you going to work on it, move it around, and install it? How about just getting it home? The stuff is HEAVY and bulky. You can do serious damage to yourselves and to your home or vehicle if you drop this thing and it lands the wrong way.
Guys in the trade have made up dollys and rigs that they use to move the countertops in and out of your home. Some things are just better left to those that do it for a living.
If you'd like to attempt a do-it-yourself countertop other than laminate, try either a granite TILE countertop or a concrete countertop.
No offense but Bwahahahahahaha.
Don't even consider it. I'm the king of trying to save money by doing "everything" myself but I've finally learned where and when to draw the laser line.
Spend your time making money at what you do best and use that money for others to do what they do best. Lifes too short.
If you need to save the money then do granite 18" tiles on the diagonal with a wooden bullnose edge. Ive done that many times and if you take your time and keep the tiles evenly flat it looks awesome and is way less expensive.
Be realistic
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 5/15/2003 4:58:08 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Cutting the hole would be the least of your worries, that would be hs easy part . It is the pollishing that cost the money. That will take 10 times the labor of cutting .
don,
I've tried polishing ( fine sanding) the edges of marble tile and "that" was bad enough. Can't begin to even fathom polishing the edges of an entire kitchen counter of granite.
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Don you might want to consider granite tile. Its less expensive and is a more manageable project as a DIYer donr right it looks pretty darn good.
Darkworks: Its all 'bout da squilla
I couldn't agree more with all the posts so far.
Breakage is hard to predict and takes a gut instinct to truly predict. I never move a slab with a sink cutout with out epoxying stainless rods in the underside of the slab. Some fabricators do but the possibility of breakage is very high. I charge $100 to rod a slab and do a rough cut out and $300 to polish a cutout
The learning curve on granite is very high. After six months of working on it it starts to seem manageabl, but those first six months you are learning so much every day it is tough to keep up. Even if you ask someone for tips they can't prepare you for everything. There are so many things I don't even consciously think about while working that are crucial that you know.
I get the feeling you are talking about prefab slabs with edge profiling already done. Those will work well for a very small range of kitchen designs ie a Galley kitchen. If you have inside corners and polished returns on cabinet ends you have a bunch of headaches.
I won't touch the prefab pieces if someone wants me to do some additional cutting and polishing for their DIY install. The time they take to ask me questions after question is usually more than the time it takes to do the actual work and I can't seem to get them to leave me alone. I end up making half my standard rate if I am lucky after considering the time they consumed talking. Given this don't be surprised if local fabricators are uninterested in working with you.
If professionally installed granite is too costly go for an alternative. I think you could do great things with stainless steel, butcher block and tile and these three are much more DIY friendly.
Karl
This guy is gonna finish his own dry wall with 2 coats and a sponge.
And then he is gonna belt sand his hardwood floors with a craftsman 3x21 belt sander, but he's gonna buy 5 extra belts cause it will probably take more than one.
and he can use the extra ones on the granite!
then he's gonna wire and plumb his house cause he knows as much as any plumber or sparky.
BUT I bet he don't know what them black diamonds on his tape at 19-3/16" are for!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I have two friends that attempted to DIY granite counters. One gave up and had a professional friend do it. The other wished he did.
My professional friend said to the latter "Don't worry, you'll get better with practice." I wouldn't want to consider my kitchen as practice.
As suggested in the previous posts. Let a shop cut it from a template or ask a professional friend to do it.
Just my 2 cents.
Len
where do you live? I have a great source for granite countertops in the SF Bay Area, they are rough cut and polished in China, and get containered here for wholesale. Just did a job with 2 8' sections and a small 27" piece of beautiful blue pearl granite. Total price, including edgine (nice ogee), sind cutout and holes for faucet, etc. was $1,100.
I wouldn't do it myself, but I also won't pay the premium prices that local shops have been charging for years when I can get the same granite from China or Mexico for half the cost.
oh yeah, here's an online source for granite
http://www.diygranite.com./
Edited 5/15/2003 10:48:49 AM ET by JEFFN7
Jeff, I am intrigued. Describe the job in a bit more detail.
I get approached occasionally by people wanting to use prefab material. It doesn't pay for me as I make my money on the fabrication not the installations. In fact I would rather not do installs at all but it is unavoidable. I have always wondered how the numbers work out for an individual that specializes in working with prefab slabs.
If you can give fairly detailed responses to the below questions I can get a much better picture of how this project of yours compares to the work I am doing.
Was the kitchen designed from scratch to facilitate prefab sections or were you covering cabinets that were designed irrespective of the countertops?
How many square feet of cabinet?
how many lineal feet of polished edge? Is it a 3/4" edge or 1.5" edge? If 1.5", ogee with bullnose below or just a flat polished edge below it?
how many lineal feet of backsplash and how tall?
how many electrical cutouts in backsplash?
What type of sink went in? Make, model, does the cutout match the corner radii with a reveal consistent with the straight edges of the sink?
How many inside corners and how many outside corners.
How many seams and are they consistently tight enough you cant get a razor blade between the two sections prior to gluing them? If so how did you get the sections to butt up so tight with out having them custom fabricated for this particular kitchen?
Was all the fitting, cutting, etc done on the jobsite? If so was dust or slurry control much of a problem for the homeowner?
What did you charge the customer? I am looking for the actual dollar amount.
Was this labor only or labor and material? Was the install profitable enough you could do this type of work exclusively and prosper doing just the installs?
Thanks if advance for your response.
Karl
Let me know if you want me to run the numbers you give me to see what I would charge for a kitchen with the same variables I list above.
Karl,
Let me get back to you on these question after I pull up the paperwork, I'll post in this thread.
cheers,
jeff
Karl,
I'm doing my own kitchen right now, here's the quote I just got for the countertop. It's really straightforward, no outside/inside corners and the pieces are all single (no seams). The edge treatment is a simple 1.5" bullnose. The sink cutout is radiased and polished.
material: Blue Pearl granite
Slab A:
98" lengthbullnose front onlysmall notch cut in for range install (2" x 3/4"). The range is a new DCS and is different from most others I have worked with in that there is a lip that supports the range and it rests on top of the countertop, hence the notch to clear the front panel.
$375 for slab$175 for install
Slab B and Slab C:
80 3/4" length (B)26" length (C)slab C has same notch cut in as slab A above.bullnose front onlyundermount sink install (Blanco 511-750),
$375 for slab$175 for install
Additional information:
- no backsplash- kitchen location is ground floor- no cutouts other than the sink. - the total linear on the bullnose is a little over 17'- sink cutout is done on-site dust control.
Jeff
Edited 5/20/2003 2:05:49 PM ET by JEFFN7
I agree with much of the earlier sentiment.... don't even consider a diy granite situation. I had some old marble laying around and tried to make a bathroom counter... actually did.... but it took everything I had and in the end I had to settle for the "distressed" or "aged" and "worn" look. You are not set up to do anything other than look at the granite.
However, if you like black and stone and really want to try your hand at a diy countertop, check out soap stone. It is extremely dense so it does not stain. In fact, it is often times used for chemistry lab counters because of this property and it's inert nature. Soap stone however is very soft. It will "dent" instead of chip. It can be cut with regular tools including router bits for dressing up the edge. It only comes in black or other varieties of very dark green (read that as black) and charcoal gray. You need to oil this material for the life time of use but you can easily get more than one or even 3 lifetimes out of this product.
There is a company on line who will sell you slabs. Even cut them to size and tell you how to join them together for installation.....
http://www.soapstones.com
good luck,
Rob Kress
I wouldn't do it myself, but I also won't pay the premium prices that local shops have been charging for years when I can get the same granite from China or Mexico for half the cost.
And there, in that statement, this is what it all boils down to!
It has already been assumed that those that fabricate granite countertops for a living, that use quality material from Italy and the United States, are somehow charging "premium prices" for something that should be available at "Granite Is Us"!Nowhere is the importance of quality, professionalism, appearance of final product, even brought up in the discussion.
This is the mentality that those of us that strive to do quality work come up against. It is why we have difficulty charging a living wage for our efforts. It is also the question I struggle with on why I should care when it's obvious that most people don't!
I've talked to soapstones.com several times and compared prices. You can't beat them and it's a soft stone. It's worth a look and the stone gets better with age.
Rupert
the granite does come from Italy, it's just prefinished in China, resulting in a much lower end cost. I'll bet that a lot of the granite that cabinet shops are putting in are coming in a container from Europe via China, just like a lot of other components (cabinet doors, for example).
As far as quality work goes, don't confuse price with quality. Everyone, on this forum and others, *itches about poor quality of cheap products, and we all like to believe that you get what you pay for, but in fact, that isn't always the case, I've seen many high end homes with fabulously expensive cabinetry, trim and finish, and mechanical work that is of mediocre quality. Why, because someone paid a lot of $ for something under the assumption that it was good quality, not knowing how to really tell the difference. We've all seen a lot of crappy products sold cheaply as well, that much is beyond dispute.
To assume that I'm not concerned with quality of finish, professionalism, or any other aspect of craftsmanship is *####. What I am concerned about is delivering a high quality product and a strong margin to the bottom line, and not overcharging people who can afford to pay it because "they can afford to pay it". If using non-U.S. sources helps me do that, all the while delivering the quality and service that exceeds that of my competitors, then I will be far more successful over the long run than some local guy who hasn't figured out how to be profitable without charging the high rates that everybody else is charging, because "that's the going rate".
"It is why we have difficulty charging a living wage for our efforts. "
and if you can't charge a "living wage" for delivering a good product/service, then you should check into another line of work. I have no problem doing it... know what your margins are on every job, maximize production capacity and minimize downtime through flexible scheduling, manage finances strategically, and look for every opportunity possible to improve quality by investing in new machinery/techniques, training employees on how to treat customers and prospects, and leverage suppliers to reduce my cost of goods wherever possible.
I think that you're assuming that whatever the charge is, it is somehow way too expensive and that it should be lower. I don't charge a high price on something because I think I can get away with it. My prices are based on the type of work, the quality of the finished product, and whatever other expenses occur. Someone reading the posts here will think that they can just order ready made granite tops for their kitchen and that my guy is ripping them off. Nevermind that on the website you posted, there was no mention of "L" shaped tops or if the straight tops I'd order would come from the same slab so that they match.
I'm all for doing the best job for the customer for the best price, but sometimes that means letting the right guys do their thing.
Edited 5/15/2003 11:51:10 PM ET by nino
Edited 5/15/2003 11:52:42 PM ET by nino
Why is it that nobody asks a doctor what an operation should cost and that nobody shops his price for that operation?
Why is it that many people will use a financial consultant, accountant, or invest in a fund, without asking what the fees will be and shop those services around?
Those of us in this industry are entrusted with what for many people is the single, biggest investment of their lives. Yet, we're subjected to comparison shoppers, people that aren't interested in the work but only on what it costs. We're subjected to the myriad of DIYers that feel we're ripping them off to the point that they want to do the impossible things themselves in order to save a few bucks.
Even when we've earned the trust of a customer, we're still subjected to questions about "Why is it so expensive?", just about when you feel that you've earned the benefit of the doubt because of your past service for them.
I don't understand the mentality of compromising on something just because it's cheap. If I couldn't afford a granite countertop DONE RIGHT, then I'd either get a quality built countertop in something else, try to save money in another way in order to be able to afford the top, or I'd wait until I got the money to buy it.
When I got my knees operated on, I couldn't pay for both at the same time, So I had one done and the other done in six months. I didn't ask if I could do the arthroscope mysellf with a flashlight and a plastic tube.
I'm sorry if I'm carrying on about this, but I'm facing a situation in real life over a deck I'm building (the one with the IPE wood ) where the homeowner is getting advice from a guy whose only expertise is walking on a deck and watching "This Old House". I'm getting the third degree from I'm charging too much to, do you really need to dig all those holes and use all that cement to, how hard can it be to put down with all your fancy tools to, you should use the wide boards so I can save on screws.
Your issue is one that most of Americas industry is facing right now; it's not that you or other domestic companies charge more than you should, it's just that China charges so little that it's impossible for you to compete. A Chinese family can live on $10 a day...can you? Can you even live on $10 an hour? I didn't think so. If it made economic sense for someone to get surgery in China (that's assuming the quality of care was the same) most Americans would do it. It's a sad fact, but as long as Americans aren't willing to give up our big houses and 3 cars and stocked refrigerators, we're always going to be demanding the higher pay that China/Mexico/India/Etc. will always be able to beat.
molten
Why don't you try DIY brain surgery, or a root canal job on your wife? In terms of saving a bundle, doing you own granite countertops is just scratching the surface.