Do you miter the ends on shoe moulding?
ScottDouglas
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
We recently completed a house and did the shoe molding the same way we’ve done it for the past twelve years or so by cutting it off at a 90 degree then split the width in half and cut it again at a 22.5 degree. It would end this way at the casing or any other termination. The homeowner was not happy with this and wanted us to replace it all and have the ends mitered. Does anybody end there shoe this way ? I see his point about having no endgrain but it has never bothered me before. The house is in a Detroit suburb and sold close to 700,000 .
Replies
I take it the shoe mold is profiled? Did you do mitered returns up higher, say at windows, doors, or elsewhere? Is the trim painted or is the grain showing?
Have you been trimming out homes of this scale and quality for the last ten or twelve years and doing this little quickie on shoe for your other customers? Who are you working for here, the builder or is the owner the builder? What are your terms, lump sum or something else?
A lot of unanswered questions.
I like mitered returns everywhere, and no endgrain showing. With todays chopsaws and blades, and using quick setting high viscosity trimmer's glue, they are easy.
Save your 22 and a halfs for the starter homes and hunting camps.
Bob, the shoe is only at base to floor intersection. I subcontract trim for builder's and have done everything from entry level to 3 million + homes. On the high end all basemoulding is scibed to the floor.
You mean in high end houses there is only basemould with no shoe?
who ever signs the check gets what they want..he wants returns, give em returns..charge accordingly.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
That's what I insist on in my home.
In the original post, I would have had the floor installed before the base.
To me, a big ole shoe sticking out is big time ugly compared to the rest of the fine homebuildingship around it.
I've got to cast my vote with the return guys. Especially in a house in this price range. Returns on everything and coped joints to me are a sign of craftsmanship.
Mark
yes, i agree with the above poster...
I don't even know how to do what you're describing!
I feel the only way to properly resolve trim is to return it 90 degrees in situations like this...
Whether you need to remedy this or not is probably a contract question......
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
We used to do all our shoe with the 90 deg return method, but then found that it makes a nasty little dust/dirt/fuzz catcher where it intersects the casing. We now use your 22.5 method, altho with a 45 instead. It has gone over fine, we try to make the 45 merge exactly with the outside corner of the casing.
of course, the customer is king....
I think by and large that boils down to an aesthetic preference thing on an item 90% of homeowners never look at or care about. I would agree that the mitered return, being more time consuming, is usually considered the "proper" way, but that really depends on who's doing it. We all get our days full of pomp and bravado, but the 22 is real common, and there's only 1 builder in my life who would care if shoe mold wasn't mitered. And that is a byproduct of attention to details and selling price. The biggest downside to the miter is getting that tiny little thing not to fly across the room from the saw and get lost, and the second is getting it to stay put. Lots of those little triangles get lost five years down the road if you whack them with the vaccuum.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
cut your angle first, then put a piece of scrap behind the piece and cut off. the little bugger wont go anywhere.
heh heh - yeah. Great in theory. My saw must have poor manners. But it's got an awesome left hook."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
My 2 cents..
If he didn't specify then he has to pay.
Period.
Nuthing wrong with end grain!
ever piece of wood ever cut has two sides with it, except maybe a stump!
I've:
mitered them (PITA waste of time)
Cut them square and chopped the corner.
rounded them with a belt sander or a sanding block to mimic a mitered return.
Its all a matter of taste.
and Yeah, no shoe AT ALL looks best.Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
GO ORANGEMEN!!!
nothing wrong with end grain ...
on pre-stained oak!
I'd miter it even if it cost me money .... I couldn't sleep at nights.
That's just a shi##y job .....
Man .... new const .....
different world ......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff, I was going to say that the grain match is so good in the head casing in the pic you posted that it looked like it was wrapped with a piece of those wood-grained shelf paper.
Don't kill me please!!!!
I thought you are supposed to show end grain in Craftman's trim, not?
a WHAT job??!!
End grain just proves that you used real wood. If there is no end grain, i'm inclined to think its plastic molding or plywood with veneer tape.
Oh Yeah......
To get to build a new house!
Straight square level plumb parralell.....
with nothing else to worry about except shoe molding!!
Somebody wasn't paying attention!!
You dont use shoe in new construction.
Talk about shoddy!Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
GO ORANGEMEN!!!
"You dont use shoe in new construction."
I have always used shoe in new construction and it's not shoddy. I expect to see a shoe and when it's not there it looks cheap to me.
What do you do on new constuction a year later or more when everything has settled into place and there are gaps between the floor and base. When there is a shoe its a lot easier to go around and tap it down in the offending areas than anything else i could think of.
Also, sometimes when plinths or casing with a thicker edge profile are use just a small portion of the shoe endgrain shows. A litle nip and sanding look much better than a return. For one job where the shoe was out just a 1/16th we ripped down all the shoe.
One thing I've seen other contractors do that I personally don't like is to install a stained and prefinished shoe on top of painted base. They do this when installing the shoe after floor finishing. I have had floor sanders complain about shoe being in place. I tell them I don't install shoe after. When I am trimming I'm doing it all, i don't want to be dragging tools and such over a finished floor if i can help it. I also tell them that so long as they are not reckless i don't mind the occasional dings and black marks from the edger. It's quick work to go around and touch those up.
I agree with des about using shoe in new construction--around Chicago, unless you were going for some high-end minimalist look, shoe would be used for just about all non-carpeted areas. The whole idea is that down the road as the house settles--you have something to cover the gaps between the flooring and the base. If you have to scribe your base to your floor in new construction, someone should talk to the framers!! I don't know if it is common in all areas of the country, but sometimes people use the word shoe to describe quarter round--which does look out of place on the floor. I also think you get a better sanding job without the shoe--no way to get tight around all the returns we are talking about if they are on the floor--unless you hand sand or scrape those areas.
Thanks Brian, I have only used a few different sanding subs over the years. The older ones never complained about the shoe and i always got a great job. Yes it involved some hand scraping. But when you are talking about the shoe those ends are usually at the bottom of door casings which involve some hand scraping anyways. Your right there with the scraper a couple of swipes with a sharp blade is all it takes. Hardly much more work.
Now the younger sanders they are the ones that started to moan about the shoe. They charge me a little more if the shoe is in place. And its never been more than $100 for and that for 3-4,000 square feet. And oh yes the older guys started charging more too.
For $100 or less I don't want to drag out my chop saw, compressor, etc. and run the risk of damaging floors in the process with a dropped hammer. Unless there is some landscaping to do it's usually floors finished - final payment. I don't want to go in there with as bunch of tools anymore.
I've never heard of what you're saying you did, and am having trouble visualizing it.
Any chance we could get a picture?
It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit [Harry S Truman]
Here is what I think he is doing. I modeled this as a 1-1/8 tall shoe, 3/4 thick, with a 5/8R roundover.
The 22.5 corner chop is the fast-n-cheap answer to a mitered return.
If it was a painted job, I might accept it if the endgrain were sanded and well sealed before the finish went on.
It might look a little better (once again for a painted job) if the end were hit with a belt sander and rounded to look just about exactly like a 45 return.
Thanks - I got the idea now.
Tough call. I can see where a mitered return could be a dust catcher, as someone said.
But I can also see where some folks wouldn't like the nipped end. (I know I wouldn't)Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary [Reinhold Neibuhr, 1944]
We like to take a rubber sanding block and shape the end of the shoe to match the same profile as the face.
With a little practice it is very easy to make the shoe look as though it is returned without the possibility of a call back from the tiny piece getting dinged off the wall.
The 22 1/2 method is quite common but doesn't look good with all that rough end grain showing.
John,
If it makes you feel any better, I know exactly the detail you're talking about.
You mention that you sub? What has the GC said? How many rooms got shoe? Is it already stained/painted?
"Does anybody end there shoe this way?"
I sometimes return the shoe, other times I just nip the end off. It usually depends on the finish or the rest of the house.
Jon Blakemore
File this thread under "You Get What You Pay For".
I am guessing this detail was not called for in the drawing details or other specifications so all parties must rely on past practices.
If you have worked for this GC/ Builder many times before - like it or not, a precident has been established. If this practice or ANY practice was acceptable before for the same/ equivilent $ then it should be acceptable now. If the GC/ Builder wants something different, fine, but he/ she should expect it to be reflected in the price.
Your beef is not with the HO. It is with the GC/ Builder. He/ She is distracting from the issue at hand - cost - by assigning the request/ judgement to the HO. Step up to the plate and fulfill their wants and desires - and get paid for it.
F.
well said !! gcs seem to always put subs in the middle LOL
it's called a return ....
99% of the time I return ... everything.
end grain is the devils work ...
should be a return ...
anything less ....
is less.
Huge difference to me.
I'd not have hacked/chopped ragged ends in my house.
Only way a chopped end looks OK is with a terrible painter.
Jeff
for cabinet stuff .. I even shoot for a wrap return ... running the grain all the way around the wall by using the off cut from the first piece.
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
And if you are trimming windows and doors in the Arts 'n Crafts style, say, 1x4 casings butted up to 5/4x5 heads, the heads having a little, maybe 1/2-inch, overhang at sides, will you do 45 grain-continues returns on the head ends?
Qualify your response for painted and stain-grade work.
Yes and especialy yes!
The way I look at it, the methods, materials, design and craftsmanship are what give a house it's legitimency. Details like that just signal short cuts and deadlines. Banks and deadlines do not a good house make.
The trim is permanent, the dust is temporary.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Yes.
Usually. My own stuff .... yes. When I sub ... depends on the GC.
stain highlights it ...
but even with a good quality paint job ... I like to see that little miter line.
except for that window I showed the pic of .... it's my own house ... I was going for a specific look ...
and the idea I had in my mind at the time was stained 1x oak ....
shaprt as possible edges .... nothing rounded ... and a straight ... square ... sill with straight/square ears ... they aren't returned to the walls ...
that look would have been to "formal" for what I was shooting for.
But even the shoe in my "informal" house is returned.
To me ... the chopped shoe is something the grew out of the new const/trim them fast culture.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff, I have exactly the same query as Bob; I did a mirror trim to what you did on your window(s) except in poplar and other paint-grade wood. I returned the top crown piece you did (the profile is very similar to yours), but did NOT return the header (1X4)...there is the end-grain showing, but I sanded them (well, most, I forgot a couple) and was thinking I might even "smear" some epoxy on the same to finish it off even more and close the end-grain.
I stumbled across this epoxy idea last evening when I had to adhere a chip of wood that I took off from a piece of wood support; I discovered that you don't try to plane the end-grain of wood! <g> So I epoxied the quarter-size wood chip on the end of the support and accidentally smeared some excess on the wood which when I thought about it, might work well to close up the end-grain on the window trim I did.
see ...
you found out it's hard to hide end grain ...
even under paint.
That's why I just follow the habit of returning most everything.
Like I just posted to someone else .... when I sub ... I do what the GC wants ...
One guy wants in/out as fast as possible with everyything looking nice ..
one concession he's willing to make is returns vs end grain on painted trim ... he has a price point he'll stay under .. or up charge the trim package and it'll all get top notch treatment ... usually he just says chop them.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
When you guys say return the shoe I take that you return to the base. Does anybody return it to the floor? How do you think it may look?
i return everthing.
chop the pieces parts- glue 'em up- set off to dry.
i got one of those folding laundry stands sits near my saw for a drying station.
if it shows it gets returned- even outdoors
Me too. I got some of those cool pointy wire clamps that you put on 90degree corners while they set up. They come with a pair of reverse action pliers, and they work great. I think Collins Tool company is the maker.
One you get a system, it goes pretty quick. Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
actually just brought some of those home tonight. anxious to get after it tomorrow and see how they work...
looking at router tables- figure i can buy components and build what i saw for less than half
tired of worrying about my fingers on a table with less than adequate support...
Dude ...
for the interior stuff ... thry that new Titebond Moulding Glue ...
expensive .... but well worth it.
That ... and my 23 gauge pinner ...
and it all get's returned and set as soon as I make them up.
The Moulding glue is just a accessory to the regular titebond ... too pricey to use everywhere ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
been using it...
i don't have good results holding the thinner horns of say base or apron returns
see i will go thru and rough out the return ends for two or three days stuff and glue it up- then hit something else and come back and file and sand- then final cut and fit...
trying some of that stuff Cal mentioned tomorrow...
2P-10? Don't glue your fingers together, and don't tuck your shirt in immediately after glueing. Use a pc. of wax paper under the glue up. Check this thing out hub.
http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tools&Number=7377&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I've been doing the endgrain filling-smoothing for years, mostly I handplane endgrain as opposed to sanding it. You get a flatter smoother finish that way. Buy a Lie Nielson low angle adjustable throat blockplane, keep it honed to hairsplitting sharpness and then notice how much you start to use it for everything. They're expensive but they will change the way you do finish carpentry and you will throw your other blockplanes away. See the thread over in Knots.
Unless it's a very small very thin shoe moulding, I always 90 them. Best thing to do if you're thinking about the 22 is ask the gc or customer, and then give them what they want.
I always miter it to a stop.
Tim Mooney
well as far as i am concerned its a tough oversite !!!! like all the other ones in these trades someone should have specified it !!! sounds to me like hurry up get the trim up but not on your part why didnt it go under the base , why is the shoe or quater round even needed !! is it stain grade , or painted ? OR BETTER YET DID YOU REALLY FIGURE TO PUT MITER RETURNS ON ALL THE ENDS !!!THE OWNER IS NUTS TELL HIM TO GET HIS CHECKBOOK OUT IF THATS WHAT HE WANTS !! i do see the point about the end grain though, but why is it always up to us to spec everything the more i type the morre pissed i am getting & i am on your side all the way !!
oh by the way i do the shoe just like you do
One thing no one has seemed to mention is that, at least in a remodel, how is the rest of the house done?? Nothing looks worse than trim done a different way in every room--kind of like putting ranch casing in a 100 year old house. Take the time and effort to match the existing trim and the job will look seamless. When the door casing sticks noticably past the baseboard, the clipped end can look better than the return if it is done right. And, like posted above, if done right, you can even use a palm sander to match the profile so it looks like a miter. All that said, I do like doing returns---just cut a whole bunch of left and rights at one time and glue them in as you go.
The homeowner has agreed to pay for doing the main floor over with returns, and keep the second story as it is.
The builder supported us, and told him this is the way all of his houses have been done in the past. So no money will be lost it's just the time that is lost that really frustrates me.
Yes, some house's we do have base only and it's quite a clean look. The shoe we used is 1/2'' wide x 3/4'' tall oak that is prestained and finished by the painter first.
To each his own. I actually cut mine back at around 30- 35 degrees, my saw is on the job otherwise I could tell you exactly, it's whatever that stop is for cutting crown flat. Then I nip the end square to get the angle to die at the casing as someone else mentioned.
It's a fussy little detail, but if I get down on my hands and knees to look at it I don't like the profile of the shoe curving away from the casing. To me it makes the shoe appear short.
I always have a piece of sandpaper wrapped and stapled around a block of wood to sand these ends smooth.
On medium to large size jobs I like to trim out one of everything if possible and have the customer take a look. It can prevent a lot of headaches down the road.
>> ... I like to trim out one of everything if possible and have the customer take a look.
Smart.
Along the lines of this discussion, what brand of glue do you use to attach those little buggers? I've used titebond in the past, but wouldn't mind something that set up a little quicker. What's the consensus?
Used to use contact adhesive. Now using 2P-10 glue ( http://www.fastcap.com/prod.asp?page=2p10kit) from fastcap. Almost instantaneous permanent set, but watch your fingers.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Titebond type 2 sets faster, and now they make a 'moulding' glue that sets even faster and is thicker so you don't have to deal with dribbling. I've used it a few times but find that it's harder (of course) to get the damed stuff flowing out of the bottle unless you devise a way to keep the bottle always upside down in which case I've often come to work the next day having forgotten to take the glue bottle out of my pouch , and had to pry the bottle out of my pouch pocket. Oh the problems we face!