I’m a GC, and a plaintiff in a civil suit for non-payment. As part of my trial today, I’d like to rebut the testimony of the roofer hired by the client. The roof of an addition I built (that their roofer roofed) leaked about halfway up the plane of a 7/12 roof, under a cascade of water from a higher 2nd floor valley. This addition is a 18′ diameter octagon with a faceted conical roof, hipped al the way around, and abutting the house with a cricket. No slopes are less than 7/12.
I installed the #15 felt to dry-in the project, and the drip edge. Few of the roofers in my area use drip edge, which is fooish. I had talked with their roofer earlier, and he said, ” if you want drip edge, you put it on, I don’t know where to get it”. I did.
I believe in his testimony today he will say that the roof leaked because of my installation of the eave drip edge (!) – okay, we know that’s ludicrous. But a jury?
I have shingle wrappers specifically calling out or recommending drip edge at eaves and rakes, which I’ll supply to the court, as well as some downloaded manufacturer’s instructions, so I think I’m well armed.
BUT – what do you guys do – drip edge? Let the shingles hang off the deck, break, and wick in water to the deck edge?
Love to hear when I get back today.
Forrest
Replies
I think you've got problems besides the drip edge issue....while I & most likely everyone here consider it SOP, it's unlikely that not having it on a brand new, otherwise properly installed shingle job, would cause massive leaking....just my 2cents...
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Any juror should understand gravity well enough to see that water will not migrate from the bottom to midway up, drip edge or not.
Good luck!
Upstate NY. ALWAYS use drip edge. Regardless of the pitch. Have yet to see a shingled house without drip edge.
Best of Luck...
The one thing in your story that stood out to me was the cricket. These are not something most folks deal with regularly. Flashing them in takes some experience and your average roofer may not be familiar with how it's done. Water washing down a roof should not leak. If it goes up hill, as it does with an ice dam, roof shingles will leak. Otherwise you need a hole someplace to let the water in. Drip edge or the lack of it won't cause a roof leak. I'd get some pictures of the cricket and any dormer flashing, these are your most likely causes.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The drip edge is not the issue. Sounds like maybe there's a problem at the roof-to-wall flashing? What WAS the problem?
I can't dream of a location where drip edge wouold cause a leak, properly installed.
In twenty years of roofing full time, I can think of only 2 or 3 roofs that I did not use it I consider it a necessity.
In previous discussions here in breaktime on this subject, I have noticed that the only places where it was not commonly used were in states where the cost of living and the wage scale are on th elow end of the spectrum - GA, Carolina, Alabama, etc
I suppose there is a "poor-boy" mentality of looking for the cheapest way of doing things predominating there so the drip is left off
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I can’t see drip-edge causing a leak. But I have seen something happening with it, I think, that seems to cause premature fascia board rot. <!----><!----><!---->
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I prefer wood drip edges.<!----><!---->
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Metal sweats from condensation. <!----><!---->
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One of the better TV construction personalities says that metal drip edge is supposed to be installed hanging a quarter inch out off the wood eave. (so there is a noticeable gap behind it) This way the condensation from dew and wet weather will drip away from the fascia instead of holding it to be wicked up by the fascia. How many of you roofers have heard this? Is it a SOP on your jobs? The reason I ask is because it is not the way I see it being done on 99.9% of the jobs I see it used on. The wood drip edges last longer, especially if they are not guttered either.<!----><!---->
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I am constantly going back on re-roofs where metal drip-edge is added as part of the re-roof and fixing the rotted fascia that has rotted in short time after the new roof is applied (2 years later, average). Most homebuilders in the area are not using metal drip-edge for new construction.<!----><!---->
Anyone else seeing this too?
I do leave that gap now that i've become a remodelor and focused on the whole house. But when I wsa roof sub/specialist, I never noticed and ran the metal tight to the wood drip
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>>>>>>>>>>>>One of the better TV construction personalities says that metal drip edge is supposed to be installed hanging a quarter inch out off the wood eave.One of the reasons the drip edge often gets installed tight against the fascia is the fascia is often in front of the sheathing rather than below it, so the DE has to be pushed back to get something solid to nail it to. A wider nailing flange on the DE would solve this for someone paying attention.
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I would prefer to just leave off metal drip edging and just let the shingles hang out at least a full inch past the wood. The other thing I’ve noticed about many roof installations is that the shingles are not hanging far enough out over the metal edging and water is wicking back up the underside of the shingles. 1” seems to give a little bend/droop to the shingled edge and it drips like it should, from the shingles.
Mr Jalp, when I started, metal drip flashing was non-existent. We always used to use a starter board (1x6). We'd hang it over the fascia about 5/8".
I've never given metal drip edge much thought and I'll admit that I've always held it tight. The 1/4" gap makes sense, but I could also see where homeowners would object becuase it would make a nice spot for insect nests...and it would look like it wasn't installed correctly if the gap is there.
I also would think that the manufacturers would build in some sort of mechanism to prevent it from being pulled tight.
Rotting fascia boards are more the result of poor seal. If they have a good coat of paint, they will not rot.
blue
Most drip edge I deal with has a lip on the bottom edge to kick the water away from the fascia.
If the fascia is wrapped in coil stock, we hang drip edge flush and push the coil stock behind the drip.
If the fascia is wood, and will not be wrapped, we kick is out 1/4 - 1/2". The exposed reveal either gets painted, or coil stock is slit, and slipped in to hide the ply.
blue,<!----><!----><!---->
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There are a lot of possible explanations for rot, but they all take water coming from somewhere and often enough to establish molds and mildew, fungi. I live in a climate of mostly hot to mild, for 9 or 10 mo/yr and “Constant drought with occasional flooding”. So I attribute the most water to morning dew condensation from the metal drip edging and the shingles not hanging far enough out on the homes that have it. (Mostly) It, (rot), is not as prevalent on homes without the metal edging here, in my observations, but I can’t say that the homes that are without it are completely rot free either. As you pointed out, keeping the paint fresh is also needed.<!----><!---->
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I will add that I have not been called back on any home that I have framed (34 years) for Fascia rot problems that have roofing that didn’t leak and only wood for drip edging and this is also why I suspect the metal as being the culprit. Some metal roofed homes I framed have had extensive fascia damage in short periods. Guttered homes have more issues too. The metal is holding the moisture that occurs in and accelerates the rot, IMO. <!----><!---->
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I’m just taking a semi educated guess as to what I believe the most evidence points too. I would still like to hear from other people if they have developed similar thoughts, or if they have opposing thoughts too.
Here in LA it's rare to find one without drip edge. Though I did just see that on one that's for sale. Definitely a cheap job all around.
-- J.S.
I've learned by experience, that a lot of roofers are great at slamming down material, but don't quite have the finesse to find out where something is leaking. Most do not want to take anything apart to find the leak source.
I fail to see how drip edge flashing could be the cause of a leak if it was installed as per manufacturers specs.
**Disclaimer: I am not lumping all roofers together! There are many great ones out there. But there are probably just as many who don't know what the &%#@ they are doing.
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under a cascade of water from a higher 2nd floor valley
Any standard roof will leak there unless special considerations are taken to handle that mass of hi-velocity water.
How big a watershed is the valley discharging?
How high above the lower roof is it?
How much rain per hour do you get there?
What does the shingle manufacturer say about dealing with that design?
What does your roofers' contract say?
Who designed the water handling system on this mess?
he said, " if you want drip edge, you put it on, I don't know where to get it".
Obviously you used an experienced, quality roofer. #?}
I believe in his testimony today he will say that the roof leaked because of my installation of the eave drip edge
Obviously, you think he's an experienced, quality roofer. #?}
To cover your butt and some thing that will go quite a ways with a jury would be a letter from the shingle manufacturer on their installation guidelines and specifically the use of drip edge. If you have the company with no dog in the fight saying it needs to be there, that carries much more weight than anything the roofer will say. You could also talk to the building inspector, if any, or maybe state code, etc. The more information you can show the jury from non bias sources with no interest, the better.
Also, where is it leaking inside? If it were a problem near the drip edge, the only damage would be to the walls. If you have a few pic's of the house, that would help more. You have the right to take pictures if you don't have them now, get them and have a judge issue an order if the home owners deny you.
Sounds like some one didn't caulk the toe board/ roofjack nail holes. Being that high up for the leak.
As an aside, yeah,,,,I have always thought that DE was the way to go..and when we do a copper roof, it purty much is mandatory to lock the pans onto.
Here at my shack, the previous dude ran the shingles flush or actually a tad high on the DE,,,with a 2.5/12 pitch. That was about 10 yrs ago. Guess what I am now replacing? Not just the rotted fascia but also the sheathing for the first foot. I am adding a sub fascia, and resheathing and finish fascia, which WILL have DE, and the shingles WILL hang over the DE by 3/4"..followed by gutter.
I don't buy the gapp/condensation/rotted fascia scene..how does one control that "gap" ? snap a line on the felt or add a spacer on the fascia? Or what everyone that I know would do, eyeball it.? I dont buy it, unless the fascia had a lot of whoops in and out, I'd set the DE snug.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
duane...
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I don't buy the gapp/condensation/rotted fascia scene..how does one control that "gap" ? snap a line on the felt or add a spacer on the fascia? Or what everyone that I know would do, eyeball it.? I dont buy it, unless the fascia had a lot of whoops in and out, I'd set the DE snug.>>>
drip edge should not be snug against the fascia or the rake
yet it often is.. if hte trim is properly primed and painted before the DE is installed there will be no damage
if the trim is painted after the DE is installed , then capillary action, NOT CONDENSATION, will pull the water up behind the DE
if you leave the gap ( all it needs is about 1/8" ) then the DRIP dedge can function the way it is designed, the water will flow down the DE until it gets to the kick at the bottom and then D-R-I-P..........
if it is snug against the wood, it will not drip , it will dribble down the face of the wood , usually behind the gutter ( homeowner complaint ! )
and some will back up by capillary action and peel the paint and rot the wood
now... are all of our drip edges gapped ?...
no..
but we try.. the mfrs are making them only about 3 1/2" wide in a lot of cases so there is very little to nail with a fascia board set in the plane of the sheathing
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can dig that. Cap vs Cond arguement. What happened here, was NO Primer or paint. You are correct. I have preprimed to replace with, and have 2 coats of paint on it before it goes up.
I usually have Grants DE, and he makes whatever I/we need. But his "standard" is just like F-4 (?) but copper. We very often need a wider nail flange on box gutter or these old rakes with crown or shingle moulding, just to find solid nailing.
When I get the north eave of mine ready, I am using alum most likely,this ain't no Taj-Mahal and Copper seems excessive, unless he has a special that week..LOL The rest that is the first level porch area, will get copper, just so I have the option of standing seam later on. It might Titainum UDL for a year at this rate,,LOL.
Oh, MY gutter? I am subbing it out. I do it all day ( at least for the last month or so) and I dont have enough scaffold or pump jacks...so UP there, I can get a 5" K squirted out in one 46' pc. By a local cheaper than I can try to haul it from Lex in 2 @ 25' on the van down the interstate. And then hang it solo.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
I could get a few pics tomorrow to show you just what will happen when that cappilary action happens on a low pitch...I have a poster child scene.
And even with a gap, if the fascia is pine and installed by a moron, it will rot. LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
I ain't a roofer by any stretch of imagination, but if there was an stream of water from the valley above, was there one of them little flow deflectors on the corner of the eavestrough that redirects water into the eavestrough (if there was eavestrough....)
I've seen two situations where lack of drip cap allowed water to flow behind the aluminium fascia, onto the soffit, which not being level, but rather sloped towards the house, redirected the water to the sheathing of the house, where it flowed down until it hit the top of windows, thereby directing some of it into the interior wall space where it started dripping/streaming out of the top of living room windows.
In one case it was because the siding would have required another row round the whole complex to avoid the soffit slope,
and in the other case, the soffit was just sloped incorrectly (? cheap level??)
I think any competent roofer would have to admit that a leak can cause water to travel quite long distances before it manifests itself. Ergo, even if ONE source of a leak is identified, You shouldn't rule out that there may be another which could have been responsible to some degree as well. Chances are that once one plausible explanation is found, folks stop looking for alternative explanations.
And, although it is generally assumed that a roof will keep you dry, where does it say that that is a gaurantee against the ravages of mother nature. A heavy rain and high winds could reasonably be expected to make any roof leak. With an octagonal roof, you've increased the chances of wind driving rain "uphill" by a factor of 4.
I trust you will be able to question the roofers credentials/experience etc, maybe even call upon the suppliers of the roofing material as to what a competent installation might look like.
To me, the roofing is the responsibility of the roofer.
So how did it go?
Eric
Defendant offered a settled before they called their roofer - issue never came up.
Forrest
glad you won. I saw the exuberant post about your win after I posted my query.Looks good on ya Congrats.Eric
I'm a HO, not a professional roofer, but around here (small town southern NH) the roofers I know use a bottom course of cedar shakes sticking out about 1 1/2 inches with wide drip edge on that. The bottom lip of the drip edge is well below the bottom of the shake and is well away from the trim. And if there is some curve to the wall,( happens in some old houses) the shakes can take out some of that. Alan
I always use drip edge and I prefer "style D". I have built in five states and have seen quite a bit of local variation. When I moved to Puget Sound, no one had heard of "style D" and I had to order a case of it to get it at all. After seeing it my supplier up there began to carry it. I'd figured that with all the rain they get around the sound that using drip edge would be standard, but there were a number of places I worked on that didn't have any metal drip edge.
I don't quite see how drip edge relates to the leak, though.
Good luck in court!
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I knew a very very good builder who would never use them. He hated having any thing that could trap moisture against the edge of plywood.
I understand his logic, but it is the one thing that I did not agree with him on.
I figure keep a good air gap there, and having something that extended below the edge of the wood was a good thing. It would stop water from creaping up on the underside of the shingle due to surface tension or capillary action or whatever it is that causes water to run down the outside of a glass when you touch the pitcher to the edge of glass.