Just ordered the 23 o.z. framing hammer. Had to convince my wife that it would make my job easier. Can you beleive that she couldn’t understand the differance between the $70 douglas and the $20 eastwing? Women, I just don’t understand em’.
Kyle,
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That's the titanium, right?
After reading some of the hammer threads here I bought a 14 oz. titanium (Stilleto with a curved wood handle) about a month ago. I can't believe the difference it makes! I will never pound another nail without titanium in the head.
Didn't tell my wife, though. Some things are better left unshared.
I bought a 14oz. Stiletto at the JLC live show in Columbus. None of my other hammers will be used again. (Except for demo work.) It's the best feeling hammer I've ever had, bar none. It amazes me that you feel no weight, yet you can sink nails just as fast as with a 23 oz.Who Dares Wins.
"Didn't tell my wife, though. Some things are better left unshared" .......... true enough but I couldn't pull it off with the new bandsaw. Must mean the garage/shop isn't big enough. Hmmmm..........
I love my Douglas hammer.
The Titanium hammer goes for around $200 so.......haven't tried that one out yet.
You might wait for a reply from Pro-Hammer.
Be well
####
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I like the way this thread is heading guys, can I get some recommendations for other favorite titanium hammers? I think this might warrant a spot in an upcoming tool review. -Justin"If God didn't want me to wear this Led Zeppelin shirt everyday he wouldn't have made them rock out so hard"
I have the Stiletto Tibone (straight handle). On my crew we all use Titanium. We have 2 Tibones (straight) 1 Tibone (curved handle) and soon another straight handle. Everyone who tries one loves it. I will not use another hammer.
Our lumberyard has a Dalluge 16oz titanium hammer with a wood handle similar to the 14oz Stilettos, but the head is bigger and the handle (axe) is a little longer and thicker. If I was using a wood handled hammer, that is the hammer I'd get.
We have "My Tool is a Stiletto) stickers everywhere :-)
sounds sexyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I wondered if anyone would think that :-)
The stilletos are seventy bucks.Who Dares Wins.
The stilletos are seventy bucks.>>>>
$200...broThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The solid titanium Ti-Bone is like 180 biscuits, but the Stiletto wood handled models can be had for around $70. I've owned both and prefer the woodie's. In fact I traded my Ti-Bone to FramerT for 1/2 a DiamondBack set up last winter.
Seventy smackers bro! Your thinking of the Ti bone, there's more to the Stilleto brand then that.Who Dares Wins.
I used to work on a fast framing crew. Everything was hand nailed. Pretty much toasted my elbow and shoulder after a few years. I switched to ergo style hammers and they make a big difference. I started with a Ridgid 18 oz. Funny looking hammer but they are comfortable and really absorb the shock. The one thing that always bothered me was the hole in the side of the cheek. Anytime I had to start a nail in a tight place using the cheek, there was a hole there. Same with the Douglas. I know you shouldn't use the cheek but there are many times you can't fit the hammer the long way. Just watch your fingers when you do. I'm using a Stanley anti-vibe 22oz now and really like it but I'm not hand nailing much anymore, just the tight spots. If you have ever had "tennis elbow" from hammering, you will gladly pay to get rid of the throbbing pain. The money you save on Advil will more than pay for the hammer. Tell the Mrs. it's for health and safety.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
pop quiz:
If the drive force of a hammer is the sum of mass and velocity, explain how a ti hammer has more force than a conventional hammer of the same mass.
mike
simple, it doesn't"If God didn't want me to wear this Led Zeppelin shirt everyday he wouldn't have made them rock out so hard"
Why is it then that all of these guys think that their "lighter ti" hammmer does more work or makes worker easier than a steel hammer of the same mass? "No, you carry the ton of bricks, I'll carry the ton of titanium, it weighs less."Did the hammer salesman convince them of some sort of magical-well of stored energy available only in a $70 hammer? Is a perpetual-motion saw available to compliment this magic hammer?-Mike
I think the theory is that these lighter ti hammers are easier to carry around without dragging down your toolbelt and they don't transfer so much of the impact back to your arm and shoulder as a standard framing hammer would. So although they don't pack quite the same amount of punch in each lick, they make up for that with lightweight and ergonomics."If God didn't want me to wear this Led Zeppelin shirt everyday he wouldn't have made them rock out so hard"
Nope. You can drive the same nail in the same amount of hits. My hands are shot due to arthritis. I have a Douglas 23 oz. And the titanium. I can go all day with the Titanium and my hands and forearms don't hurt. After awhile with the Douglas and it's extra weight can be felt. And it's not just the Douglas, it's any steel hammer. Pack a titanium around for a day and see if you want to give it back.
Who Dares Wins.
Edited 10/22/2004 10:56 pm ET by Gunner
Have four Stilleto TI hammers in the collection, both straight and curved handles. Like them.
However, the one I really like is the 16 oz. Dalluge Sweet 16 TI hammer.
The extra two ounces make a difference. Get the curved handle. Orco has them here in Orange County, CA.
Yes, you can tell the difference the next day after using one. The elbow is not a mass of pain. I like that.
All my Estwing hammers are heavy...specially my framer which is why I like my douglas with a wooden handle.
Never actually weighed it but it feels good in my hand and seems lighter and I like the chisel end unlike some other carps around here.
Thing is though...you need to periodically tighten the screws that hold the head on which is kinda jive but no biggie.
$200 for a titanium seems ludicous to me yet if we use it all day long then.....
Be driven
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
F=ma
Force equals mass times acceleration
If you swing a lighter hammer, you can swing it faster. This results in more force (F) for a given mass. If you look at this as a situation concerning uniform circular motion, the equation becomes. F=mvsquared/r, or mass times velocity squared divided by the radius (the distance from the hammer head to your elbow or somewhere between your elbow and shoulder, depending on how you swing a hammer. Wrist action can also be a factor here if brought into play just before the hammer hits.
The bottom line is the speed at which the hammer head is moving at the time it strikes the nail. You square that speed and divide by whatever you figure your radius is and multiply it by the mass of the hammer.
For instance, if the hammer is moving at 10 feet per second and weighs 1 lb. and the radius of your swing is 1 ft, let us get a mythical force of F = 1 X 10 X 10 / 1, or 100 Units.
I am dropping actual units here for simplification.
If our velocity changes to 12 feet per second, the equation becomes F = 1 X 12 X 12 / 1, or 144 Units.
Now let's add 6 oz to the hammer at the original speed. This would be 1.375 lb, giving the following equation:
F = 1.375 X 10 X 10 / 1, or 137.5 Units, which is less than 144.
Just for fun, let's increase speed to 13 fps for the lighter (Ti) hammer.
We get F = 1 X 13 X 13 / 1, or 169 Units of force.
This is the secret of the Ti hammer. You can increase the speed of the head and the velocity is squared, but if you increase the mass instead of the speed, you have a simple multiple (1.375) instead. In other words, 1 times twelve times twelve divided by one increases faster than 1.375 times ten times ten divided by one.
Have a great day.
Les Barrett Quality Construction
Hey Les-
Thanks for the thoughtful and through reply.
I understand the relationship b/t mass and velocity. But what no one has explained is why a titanium hammer weighing the same as a steel hammer is "better".
I understand why framers who are unable to swing a framing hammer at the same speed as light hammer might need a lighter hammer in order to increase velocity. I find myself attracted to a lighter hammer for a couple of weeks until I am back in production shape. But when we grab a lighter hammer, we are benefiting from a weight reduction, not from metallurgical properties related to titanium- save of course, for those related to weight.
I guess my point is this- the guys that rave about titanium hammers are really excited about lighter hammers. One guy on my crew swings a 24-ounce framer faster than I can swing a 19. His arms are like trees. With that kind of velocity and strength, I doubt a light hammer is going to help him much unless of course you assume that his stroke speed would increase even more with a lighter hammer. (True, his joints might last longer, but he will not gain impact force)
But a some point there must be a diminishing return in terms of cutting head weight- i.e. at some point your wrist is simply incapable of firing any faster. So perhaps the lighter hammer is good for us when we are out of shape, arthritic, fat, lazy, or simply weaker than the guy who can reach the same stroke speed with a heavier hammer.
The correct weight must then be a combination of muscle twitch speed (we have a certain composition of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles that we are unable to affect with time exercise) and strength. The bottom line is, and your reply seems to confirm, that as long as the big guy is flashing the 24 ounce Hart at light speed, I am not going to approach his efficiency with a lighter head, regardless of how exotic the material- I might improve a little- but then if I spent less time on Sunday picking fights on breaktime and more time working, I'd probably improve even more.
Now, about that link where a fella claims to know who is going to win the election...
-Mike
Mike,
I use a Hart Woody. Have done so for over two years. Am on my third handle at this point. They are great for hammering, poor for pulling nails. I love the Hart for nailing, but can break it in less than a week of pulling nails. I can make it last for almost a year if I am very careful in the nail-pulling department. In fact, when I know I will be doing demolition, I use my old Estwing framing hammer for pulling nails, or even my new hi-tech Estwing, which is great in some situations due to the shape of the head.
The Ti value is in strength and light weight. For example, if you were to make an Al hammer in exactly the same shape as a Hart Woody or a Douglas framing hammer, you would have a lighter weight that would permit a faster swing. The resulting force would serve to deform the Al hammer, rather than to pass the force of the swing on to the nail.
The Ti hammer is not soft, like Al. You bring it up to your max speed and hit the nail. Because it is tougher than the nail, the full force transfers to the nail. The nail goes in, in proportion to the force transferred to the nail - because the very strong Ti does not deform like Al.
Perhaps you could think of it this way ...
If you could remove the hammer head from the wood/steel/fiberglass shaft, you could swing the stick with amazing speed. The result would be the introduction of the nail into the handle, instead of into the material to be nailed.
I think that this whole activity takes place in a zone where the twitch-speed of muscle fibers does not become an issue.
As for the election - we'll see when the time comes - and the world will be different afterwards. Let's hope it is for the better, even if it means (perish the thought) that I might be wrong.
One thing I cannot substantiate, but which might be a consideration would be vibration. When you hit a large bell, the energy of the stroke is dissipated by vibration which can be felt and can also be heard as it transfers energy to the air, creating the characteristic sound waves. All of the energy of the stroke is vibrated away, since the bell stays essentially in the same location. My guess is that steel vibrates more than Ti, resulting in some loss of energy with each contact. Maybe someone who knows more about metallurgy will read this and offer some insight.
Edited 10/25/2004 9:33 am ET by Les
I know nothing about physics. Our local tool outlet had a show recently, and here was this guy with a demo set up for hammers.
I drove one 10d nail home with a Stilleto 14 oz Ti hammer (with a curved wood handle) and another with a steel Estwing 22oz. The difference was amazing. Both took the same number of strokes with what seemed like the same stroke speed, but with the Ti I could actually feel there was less stress in my wrist and forearm, since it was so much lighter.
And no (Andy), it did not cost $200 – that’s the price for the larger Stilleto with a Titanium handle. The one I bought (above) was $70.
As the tool manufacturers scurry to come up with new tools, “better†usually just means more bells and whistles. But in this case, the Ti hammers are a functional improvement over their steel cousins, and you will feel the improvement by driving a single nail.
Mike,
>>If the drive force of a hammer is the sum of mass and velocity, explain how a ti hammer has more force than a conventional hammer of the same mass.
Coefficient of Restitution. COR
Ok, now you know as much as I do about it.
Incidently the formula is 1/2 mass times velocity squared.
Here is the simplest link I found that gives some information; http://www.leaderboard.com/BOUNBALL.htm
Now if I could find a "Liquid Metal©" hammer. . .
A cue ball has a COR approaching 0. A wad of clays' COR approaches 1.
Titanium has a lower COR than steel.
If you google "titanium impact 'transfer of force' 'coeffiecient of restitution'" you'll get a lot of hits for golf, tennis, and baseball. If you exclude golf, tennis, and BB, you'll get 55 hits, none of which are understandable without a masters in science.
All I could get out of this was that titanium puts more of the M/2V² into the nail than steel. Obviously this leaves less of it to go into your elbow.
SamT
Titanium hammers are lighter than steel hammers so you swing 'em faster. It's the speed that changes. I used to swing a 25oz Estwing hickory. Now I swing a 14oz Stiletto and can still two-lick a 16D sinker without any problems. So I'm accomplishing the same thing with a lighter hammer.... a hammer that I can swing all day with little fatigue, a hammer that saves me 3/4 of a lb or so in my belt, and a hammer that doesn't make my elbow ring.
Don't believe it? You obviously haven't tried one.....yet.
FWIW.... this topic has been covered and re-covered recently in another hammer thread. Run a search, there was alot of good stuff flying around in that thread.
Don't believe it? You obviously haven't tried one.....yet.
aint that the truth...as one who has both arthritis and a bum shoulder (surgery 12 yrs ago) I wouldn't trade my Stilletto TITANIUM hammer for 3x what I paid for it ($70)
along those lines, I've had to replace a few handles on it, and I'm now on my 3rd handle (not a hammer that is made for pulling a lot of nails...) and I've found that my hands don't ache as much with the current handle as it isn't as thick as the previous 2...took me a while to get used to the difference, but my hands sure noticed it right away...only problem is, I'm having trouble finding handles that are that slim...I must have searched through 25 or so replacement handles untill I found the one that compares to what I currently have in its thickness...of course these are all curved handles...
Just use one...its kinda like your wife...you knew she was for you the first time you nailed her, and the more you nail her, the better she gets....:)
Regarding handle size and comfort issues, you don't need to try 25 different handles to get one slim enough - use a Dremel and shape the current handle to your hand. I made my Doug 23oz. handle slimmer, wrapped twisted duct tape around the grip area in a criss-cross pattern and now have a powerful hammer with a custom grip - that looks like an Indian tomahawk!
"Titanium hammers are lighter than steel hammers so you swing 'em faster. "
So why not just buy a lighter hammer?You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered [Lyndon Johnson]
Hey Boss, I"ll be the first one to admit I don't know d1ck about physics. All I know is that I can two lick a spike with my 14 oz Stilletto or with my 25oz steel hammer. I also know that I definately CAN'T two lick a spike with my 16oz steel finish hammer with any consistency. Throw in the fact that my elbow doesn't ring when the day is done and that's all the information I need. Don't particularly need or care to know what the science is behind it all.
Believe or don't believe it. Makes no difference to me dude, but thems the facts.
I don't doubt it works - It just bugs me when I can't understand WHY something works.Did you hear about the dyslexic guy who walked into a bra?
Try one and get back to me.Who Dares Wins.
Mike, after 25 years framing, and no tennis elbow trouble, I needed a new hammer. I liked a sears model that a guy on the crew had. I went out and bought one.
Within TWO weeks, I developed serious tennis elbow. By the end of the third week, I couldn't lift the hammer. Desperate, I bought the Titanium 14oz wood handle. Immediately the tennis elbow starting improving and in less than one year, it disappeared completely.
I don't hand pound that many nails....I use my hammer mostly for pounding lumber. I can guarantee that the Titanium hammer will outnail any conventional steel hammer. It sinks the nails faster because you can wind it up and deliver it faster. If you've every played baseball and swung a bat, you'll know what I mean. It only take a few ounces of differernce to significantly affect your swing. Do you remember how slow a heavy bat feels compared to the lighter ones?
I have handed my hammer to many different tradesmen just to look at the amazed look on their face when they drive a spike with that "light duty" hammer.
The only downside comes when you need to have that extra oomph that a heavier blow delivers. For instance, the titnanium is not good at moving a partion 1/4" "endo". It won't pound off a well nailed brace.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Here is how the Stiletto salesman explained it to me and it's been touched on here. The titanium doesn't lose as much energy through vibration as steel does. The benefit as mentioned is it's easier on your elbow and shoulder, but it also means that more of the engery from the swing is there when the hammer strikes the nail.
I don't think I'm explaining it well. If you take a steel hammer with a wood handle and strick concrete, you can fell the vibration in your arm. If you do it with the Ti-bone, you won't feel it in your arm. It has what the salesman called "deadblow". I tried it with their hammer, not mine :-) The 15oz Ti-bone drives a 16d as well as a 24 oz steel hammer because of the lighter weight and because there isn't as much engery lost through vibration.
or something like that. I do know that I like the lightened weight in my bags. I used to use a 24oz Dalluge.
I'm thinking you guys need to quit talkin physics and just start collecting........"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Pro
Kinda weird that not long after I got my Douglas framer I had to tighten up the screws.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
That is wierd? I've had mine , the original Hart Woody,for about ten years and never tightened the screws. I do soak the handle in Super Deck stain once in awhile to keep it from cracking."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
I think Andy's talking about the loose screws in his human head, not hammer head :) Now you guys got me all worried, Im gonna have to go out and check my Douglass to see if the screws are all snug.
-m2akita
I see mine there ... the red one on the right of the top fan! Till I got it beaten up a little I used to have to watch it real close on crowded jobsites. I don't do much nail driving ... I've got Senco working for me. I love that hammer though. The axe handle is really nice.
Pro dek, theres something wrong with those hammers...
They aint rusty!
They haven't been used!
They are useless!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Those 2 and the other 9,000 he has...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
LOL- They aren't used because they would'nt be worth quiet as much to collectors.
and I only have 46 Imerc.................."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
I have a douglas framer and love it.