Am I correct in understanding that a HWH just needs 2-conductor + ground, and a dryer needs 2-conductor + neutral + ground, because of the control circuit?
Forrest – still not a ‘lectrimecician
<Edit> Yeah, I know HWH is an oxymoron – “why does hot water need to be heated?”
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Replies
That is the case here anyway.
Dude!
"The moving finger writes!!"
Forrest
???
But when you get around to the electric range it is the same as the dryer.
<???>
I was checking where you were from, and saw the Kahlil Gibran thing.
Forrest
Yup, an electric clothes dryer needs what's called a 240/120V circuit, 240 for the heating element and 120 for the motor, controller, and light.
A water heater is a straight 240V circuit.
Not that there's anything wrong with a not-straight circuit...
Cliff
"Not that there's anything wrong with a not-straight circuit..."I disagree.When you make it crooked the faster electrons can't make the turns.Then you need to keep an electron bucket under the sharp turns or else they will spill out all over the floor..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
Yea, O.K., you got a point there. But the slow electrons give you more long-lasting light for your money.
Cliff
yeah but do you know what a free radical is?
coupla years ago i was in a health food store waiting in line to pay for my granola bar and there was a display of copper bracelets with a sign that said "copper bracelets especially when worn on the left side prevent free radicals"
when i got up to the counter to pay for my granola bar i asked the clerk "whats a free radical" ?
his reply without missing a beat was "Patty Hearst"
"his reply without missing a beat was "Patty Hearst""LOL.Before I got to the punch line I though that you where going to ask what happens if you put it the right wrist..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You can make those tight turns if'n you got high enough banks. ( shootout's on in the next room). Jim
I thought that we went over this a year or two ago.
And that you had some "crazy" local inspector that was claiming that if you had an old house then you needed to a 3 wiring dryer circuit. Even if it was a new circuit, in an old home.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
< thought that we went over this a year or two ago.>
I know, and I felt pretty chastised that last time, dealing with my own home. Just wanta' learn the "why" to go with the "how". Don't want to just depend on a local inspectors interpretation!
Same inspector on this job, likely. I'll just have the extra wire in.
Forrest
I did not look up the "old discussion". Is there any chance the inspector was saying that a four-wire receptacle cannot be used with a three-wire supply?
It's possible that may have been the point of confusion, but we went over the issue fairly thoroughly, so I doubt it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Perhaps - his point seemed to be that you weren't required to update the existing 3-wire to 4-wire when you bought a new dryer.
My issue was that I have house wired and inspected in 1991 (but with a gas dryer), and the house across the street was wired in 1975; 3 wire for an electric dryer. I bought their dryer, carted it across the street, and put in a 3-wire hookup to fit the existing cord. Inspector said this was right, given the situation.
Some guys here reamed me about it - in a nice way! I joked that the act of carting the dryer across the steet made it illegal, and it was no more "correct" in one place than another.
Forrest - not an electrician
The inspector has the final word. In my area, when you "put in a 3-wire hookup to fit the existing cord" that would have been flagged, since the NEC code (which establishes our local code) changed in 1996. Applicable code sections are 250.134, 250.138, 250.140, and 250.142(B). Applies to clothes dryers, wall ovens, surface cooking units, and electric ranges.A new circuit added to a house passed under the "old code" does not fall under the NEC grandfather clause. Although there are good reasons the code was changed, your inspector let the three wire install pass. If the dryer you inherited from the neighbor is older than mid-90's, it likely was not UL listed for the 4-wire set-up. Maybe that's why the inspector let it slide?The 3-wire appliance uses the "grounded conductor", commonly called the neutral, as the cabinet ground. The issue with this is that the neutral is seldom at a true ground potential, like when the dryer's 120v motor is running. If there were a hot to neutral leak, say from moisture on motor windings or maybe something not related to the laundry area at all, then the cabinet could be energized. Lets say the washer cabinet was electrically hot from a loose wire, but there's not enough current to trip its breaker. Lean on the washer and touch the dryer with damp hands, now there's a circuit through your body. Maybe just a slight tingle, but it could be worse.All that said, I don't know how many people have been toasted from 3-wire dryers- I certainly haven't met any. Some people do get freaked out about how much dihydrogen monoxide is in their tofu, though, so I thought I'd mention the downside of 3-wire for your veiwing pleasure.
"Although there are good reasons the code was changed, your inspector let the three wire install pass. If the dryer you inherited from the neighbor is older than mid-90's, it likely was not UL listed for the 4-wire set-up. Maybe that's why the inspector let it slide?"There was a number of location amendments that had required it long before.And I don't have old copies of the code available, but I think that the other restrictions (such as for mobile homes) also required 4 wire connections long ago.My dryer, which I bought USED around 1980, had the option to be wired either way."The inspector has the final word."Not really. He has to show the code section that says that. But in many cases it might be easier to "go along" and then fix it right latter.Ask brownbagg about his ground rod(s)?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 2/10/2007 7:41 pm by BillHartmann
What I meant by the "inspector final word" thing is that if a variance is sought to "loosen" the state/local code, the local inspector has the legal final word on a case-by-case basis. It may not always be the very best thing to do for life/safety, granted, but that is their call.On the other hand, an inspector cannot make up more restrictive codes verbally and enforce it without at some point being challenged to show it in writing, as you say. At that point it can either be added to the local code or the issue dropped by the inspector. There is usually a state inspector honcho who can trump or back-up the local guy.As a sidenote to this threads readers, the NEC is an "advisory code" promoted by the NFPA. State and local authorities may elect to adopt it, and make it into law. They might also choose the IEC (International Electric Code), make some combination of both and make up some codes of their own.My pet peeve: The local governance also may by action or deed selectively enforce their own laws, and you will know it when you see it- the inspector frequently travels to Aruba and always has a nice car in the driveway. To the inspectors with higher moral turptitude, thank you.
""To the inspectors with higher moral turptitude, thank you."" Amen to that , That profession gets kicked around far to often. Nice to see a positive comment on them.
and nope i ain't one!!
That's the norm, though there may be specific units with different requirements. Existing standard dryer outlets without the 4th wire are grandfathered in most areas, but any new service must be 4-wire.