Hi guys.
I know it’s a simple task but…
How about your opinions on the most efficient way to hang joist hangers?
Do you place the hangers on the joists first? Or place the hangers on the beam/girder first? (normally we’d toe nail the joists in place and then place the hangers – but I know you production framers have a better way 🙂 )
Make a jig that sits on top of the beam? (A piece of plywood that sits flat on top of the girder with a 2x screwed perpendicular – line up the jig and nail in the hanger)
The joists will be sitting between a (3) 2×10 girder and a (3) 2×10 rim joist. I’ll blind nail the rim joists, but the plans call for a 2×2 ledger on the center 2×10 girder which means that I’d have to notch out 200 joists to sit on the ledger! – no thanks. So I’m going to use hangers against the girder instead. (hangers are cheaper than labor)
We’re finally going to break down and get a hardware nailer because we also have a few hundred hurricane ties to install. Seems like more and more plans are spec-ing a lot of hardware.
Thanks for any input!
Replies
My framer toenails the members into place, then uses a hardware nailer and applies hangers after. Just make sure you think ahead about tool clearance, and only do this where you can readily get the nailer into position.
I like to have the joist hangers in place, and drop the supported member into it. I think it's easier to put the hangers on first without the supported member in the way.
I generally lay out the hanger locations with pencil lines first. Then I nail up one side of the hanger to hold it plumb. Then I stick in a scrap piece of 2X lumber and push the hanger up against it so the hanger ends up nailed up straight. That way the supported piece slides right in - Ain't too tight or too loose.
Although it is generally known, I think it's about time to announce that I was born at a very early age.
Hey Boss...
When nailing the hangers onto the beam or girder first, how do you set the height correctly? For instance, 2x8 and 2x10 joist hangers are the same size, but you would obviously need to set them at different heights for a 2x8 as opposed to a 2x10. So to make sure that the joists sit flush with the top of the beam, you'd need to have some way to set the height of the hanger. We've always toe-nailed the joists first, so the height was never a problem. IMHO it would definitely be better to do it your way - as long as I can figure out a way to make it go quickly.
Thanks Boss
I have hanger tool. It's constructed of extruded aluminum and looks like a T square. There are a couple of magnets in the side to hold the hanger in place. You make your mark, snap the hanger into the holder and nail it off. Exact location and alignment every time.
Sweet, but is it a trade secret?
How 'bout a manufacturer?
Thanks Tim.
EDIT* Never mind Tim... I got off my lazy butt and did a search. Found one from STARR products.
thnx
Edited 2/26/2004 11:01:18 AM ET by petmonkey
Since YOU found the link - How about sharing it with the rest of us ???
I've never seen anything like that.Look, if you don't like my parties, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, leave in a minute and a huff. If you can't find that, you can leave in a taxi.
http://www.starrproducts.com/joistmate.html
This is a link for a handy joist hanging tool. There is a video somewhere on the site that shows it in use. Pretty slick.
And Boss... I just gave myself the idiot of the day award. Since the joists I'm hanging are the same size as the girder, I could just line up the bottom. It's amazing - I get set in a certain way of doing things, and the obvious solutions for an alternative method just escape me.
But at any rate - I just ordered that Joistmate thing, It should speed things up considerably. I especially like the whole magnet idea - that way I can set all the joist hangers to my center marks with the nailing tabs and one of the guys can just run right behind me with the nailer. BAM! All the hangers are in place and secured in a half hour or so, drop in the joists - blind nail the rims and on to the sheathing! mmmm, production.
Yep, that's the one! Just start with a piece of scrap so you can make sure the tool is set correctly. It really sucks when you have it misadjusted and just finished nailing all the hangers off!
I could just line up the bottom.
What do you do if the joist is taller than the beam? I find this a lot w/ the lumber i get. 2 x 10 runs from 9-1/4 to 9-5/8 I like to have the tops of my joist even w/ the top of the beam, keeps floor flatter.
Hi Tim.
I just went and looked at the joist hanging tool.
Even watched the little video. It actually looks like it could be very handy.
But, tell me true...... do the magnets hold the hanger well?
It's not going to be one of the frustrating tools that would be great if it really worked, is it?
Thanks in advance for your insight.View Image
gee, do I have ta tell ya EVERYTHING?...the magnets are for pickin up the little stinkin hanger nails outta the grass!! Have you priced riding mower tires?...tap, tap, tap, POW..ZING..there goes the nail..across the lawn. Also can be used in emergency nail from eyeball removal..when some butt won't goggle up.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
The problem is that you take them back out of the tires.
Do like my dad does, fill 'em with fix a flat and quit worrying about running over stuff. Then you can go with the studded tire look.
Seriously did you look at that hanger aligning tool?
Around here, probably in your neck of the woods too, 2x6 and 2x8 are pretty consistent, so it looks like it might be real handy. I was just wondering about the strength of the magnets that hold the joist hanger together.View Image
seriously, no. I did not even look at them..I'm am old dog that way. I tried everyone's way (cept the thingamajig) an I still do it my way. Toenail or through nail from the otherside, and then add the hanger. Palmnailer and done. If I had the jiggy thing I would either never be able to find it when I need it, or find myself using more hangers than I really want to. I still do taperd sliding dovetails on exposed structural butt joints, and leave the deck type work to the deck type people that can do it better and faster than I.
With all the brew haha over the new treated wood...I'll stick with local sawmill stock..locust, Whiteoak, anything that lasts as long as it has in my house..both on the ground and in the ground..because I don't have to do it everyday for a living.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
The magnets hold the hanger very well. Not so well that you can't adjust it either. Now they show them tacking the hanger off with those little tabs. I've never cared for those tabs because they cause the hanger to squirm around. I usually just threw the N-10's in. There are a couple of chew marks on the tool to show it too. The biggest thing is to make sure the tool is adjusted correctly. I had to pull off a whole row of hangers once because I didn't adjust it correctly (the joist was high). That was a user error, not the tools fault though.
Now, the guy I worked with didn't care for it. He'd rather do a layout and use a piece of scrap wood than a fancy tool. Many people will take that stance. I guess it's really a personal preference.
This thing definetly makes it faster to hang a whole row of hangers.
"When nailing the hangers onto the beam or girder first, how do you set the height correctly?"
I've never been in a situation where I had to worry about it. Everything I've ever nailed up was flush at the bottom.
I can see where that would be an issue, though.Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas and how he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
I've tried that (hangers, then joists) on a deck, but when I go to nail the joists into the hanger and beam, they seem to bounce back. It's as if some of the force of the hammer is dissipated into the bounce of the joist. This left a nasty gap between the beam and butt end of joist.
Also - is it correct to toenail through the hanger, joist and beam? The geometry of the nail holes on a hanger seem to invite that.
The newer style LUS hangers were designed to handle the toenails, intending to save the total number of nails needed and save the labor driving them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Also - is it correct to toenail through the hanger, joist and beam? The geometry of the nail holes on a hanger seem to invite that."
Depends on the hanger. As Piffin pointed out, a Simpson LUS hanger requires "double shear nailing".
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But the Simpson LU series doesn't.
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Here's an explanation of their "double shear nailing". (Scroll about halfway down)
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/lus-mus-hus-hgus_pt.htmlA cynic smells the flowers and then looks for the casket.
Thanks, Boss. The link to the Simpson catalog was an excellent tip. It turns out that I was using the right fasteners after all. Beginners luck.
But what about that "bounce back" that I complain about? I set the anchor against the beam (8 10d sinkers), insert the joist, then begin toenailing through hanger and joist (4 10d sinkers). Half the time that joist bounces back, away from the beam, leaving an unsightly (and probably code-noncompliant) gap after nailing is finished. I'm nailing by hand.
A couple of things come to mind.
First would be to put all the other nails in first - The ones that go into the beam, and the ones that go STRAIGHT ito the joist. Then put the angled ones in. That might help some.
The other is to have a helper hold a BFH against the other side of the beam while you're nailing.
Maybe someone else will have a better suggestion...Marriage is the chief cause of divorce.
Javier
I think the "bounce back" that you are talking about is just the natural tendency for a toenail to pull the object back towards the hanger/head of the nail. Basically the nail is atempting to draw the 2x tighter to the fastening source - kind of like tightening a bolt. Try just setting the nail flush without over nailing... each additional stroke with a hammer is going to try and pull that joist away from the beam and towards the hanger/head of the nail.
clamp each end of a 2x to the bottom of the beam to form a ledge- you can then roll em and toenail. the high ones can be toe nailed down into plane.
if you crown your joists and stack them on edge you can gang cut your notches in about less time than it takes to think about it - works well for ceiling joists
hub
Thanks -- I'll try that next time. One point not yet raised in this thread: why are joist hangars used at all? Wouldn't a good 2X ledger lagged to the beam support the joists just as well? Actually you see that a lot in old houses ca. 1900.
Maybe I'm missing something, and I guess it wouldn't really matter in a basement, but.... wouldn't the 2X leger interfere with your ceiling. Also would only work if the beam was sized larger than the joists. The majority of flush framing situations I see these days spec 2X10 beams with 2X10 joists or similiar set ups. Only other option would be notching all the joists to fit a flush ledger...this creates two big problems: 1. labor intensive and 2. notching=failed inspections these days.
"why are joist hangars used at all? Wouldn't a good 2X ledger lagged to the beam support the joists just as well? "
Not IMHO. Virtually every ledger I've seen was grossly undersized and/or had inadequate fasteners in it.
For example - Take a 16' floor span sitting on a ledger with 55# loading. That means you need to transfer about 440# of load through the ledger. That means you'd likely need about five 16D commons per foot to accomplish that.
Then you need to look at the allowable nail spacing, minimum edge distances, etc. to determine the sice of the ledger. I dount anyone is going to put that much effort into it.Guns don't kill people. Postal workers do
Ledgers are scary!
Especially when they are just a 2x2. #1 You can't get enough nails in it to hold without splitting, #2 the depth to thickness ratio is 1:1. Not much to keep it from rolling out.
If I ever have to use ledgers, the beam is two sizes greated than the joists. 2x4 is lagged or carriage bolted to the beam. This also avoids the splitting that Piffin describes.
Jon Blakemore
There are a couple of other things you see in old houses too when this is done.
If they used 2x2, then it is failing.
if they used 2x4 and plenty of big old spikes, the ledger seems to stay, but then the notch for it in the joist effectively reduces joist size by about a third. You get to see hundreds of splitting joists where the check starts right there at the apex of that notch. The metal hanger gets all the way under the whole stinking thing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're right: that describes the ledger and joists in my 1905 cellar exactly!
I think that engineers have become more conservative too. I too have seen floor joists that were end nailed with 4 monsterous 16d sinkers. Na, they must have been bigger than 16d. Anyways, the inspector made us strenthen the connection with some joist hangers. Stood for 70 years like that already, and now it's not good enough?
A 2x10 can run between 9-1/4" and 9-5/8" so we set joists and toenail first, then place the hangers from under later. If you set the hanger first and have to lift the joist to be flush then you have a gap to shim at bottom . Or if you have the hanger set too high, you really have a pain trying to build a flat floor.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, that's what we've always done also. I was just hoping to find a way to get the hangers on first. It's just a pain sometimes to hold a joist flush and square in place 9 or 10 feet up, while straddling a beam or balancing on a step ladder set on gravel in an unfinished basement.
Around here, the center beams (girders) are often set flush with the joists (as opposed to having the joists rest on top of the beam) so it becomes a matter of holding the joist flush and square - it's almost a 2 man job. Obviously, it is much easier if the joists rest on top of the beam - but then again, if the joists were on top of the beam, I wouldn't need joist hangers :)
To clear things up a bit - we build log homes (in the central USA) from various manufacturers across the USA. Often times the log package comes with subfloor system materials. I guess the log home companies figure it is just easier to spec a basement that doesn't have pockets for beams or girders.
FHB had that article on subfloor construction a few issues back. A great article for efficiency, but it didn't really address this particular situation.
Piffin, (if you managed to slog through my rambling this far) what are your guys doing to speed up the whole support and toenail method? I'd appreciate any insight. and remember - no reply is too simple for me to figure out!
A guy on each end holds and uses the gun to nail. If cut to the right length, it's not hard to hold in the right place at all
Are you working alone? Get yourself a handfull of quick clamps. A scrap clampedto top of joist and extending an inch or soo will support that end while you finegle the other end.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Piffin...
Nope, I don't work alone, although we could, because the opposite end of the joist rests upon a sill plate. Keep in mind that we usually toenail our joists like you do, however, it can be a daunting task at times to hold the end of a 16' to 18' 2 x 10 tight, flush and square to a center girder with one hand, while holding on to a 8 or 10 lb nailer with the other hand, while balancing on the girder or on a step ladder. This really sn't a big deal if you're putting up joists for a deck at waist level, but when you are over a 9 to 10 foot basement, it really starts to slow things down. Sure, the guy on the other end can hold the joist tight to the girder, but then it's impossible to move the joist to get it square and flush. Then there's the task of holding the joist in place so the nailer doesn't push it out of alignment.
The clamping block is a good idea, because that would eliminate at least one direction that the joist could move, so then we could concentrate on holding the joist square and flush.
It's just that we started employing some techniques we read about in FHB and in Mr. Haun's framing efficiency books. Honestly, I am absolutely AMAZED at how much more quickly we are getting things done now! And that has translated into a noticeable increase in my income per job and in the speed at which we are able to move on to the next job.
So I was hoping to tap into some production framers knowledge in order to make this particular portion of the job go more smoothly and quickly. I have no doubt that placing the hangers first would make the job much less physically demanding, safer, and more efficient. My only concern is the width difference we see in the lumber, and getting consistent hanger placement.
"... however, it can be a daunting task at times to hold the end of a 16' to 18' 2 x 10 tight, flush and square to a center girder with one hand..."
Where are ya that they let you span 2x10 floor joists 16 or 18 feet? Out here in MA we can only span a 2x10 about 14' before it exceeds it's capacity.
I toe-nail all my joists first as Piffin described also because of the variance in depth of the framing members. However when flush framing as you describe, we usually tack a temporary 2X ledger to the bottom of the beam so that we can lay 'em all out and just roll em up like normal . This allows you to lift 'em a little if they are milled small and just tap the ledger down some if they are milled large. Quick and clean...that's how I like to keep my framing.
True, I should have said
"... however, it can be a daunting task at times to hold the end of a 16' to 18' 2x12 tight, flush and square to a center girder with one hand..."
The temporary ledger is a great idea and I'm ashamed I didn't come up with it on my own.
BTW - since moving to central Ohio, I've seen things that would've got me crucified back in New England. And undersized joists are just the beginning :)
Thanks for the tip diesel.
"Around here, the center beams (girders) are often set flush with the joists..."
I don't see that done much. Makes mechanicals too hard to run.
How do you handle that? Just run everything under the floor?Politics doesn't make strange bedfellows, marriage does.
Hi Boss...
Yes, for the most part the mechanicals would be run beneath the joists, although the joists themselves can be drilled within acceptable limits for water lines etc.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well - basically, the rim joists, joists and center girder all rest directly upon the sill plates. Therfore, they all meet on the same plane. It's not always done this way, but one of the largest log home suppliers around here does it that way. Normally they want you to notch out each joist to sit above a 2x2 ledger which is fastened to the girder. In that case, you would only have to hold the joist square, because it would be held up by the ledger. However - notching 200 joists is just about as far as you can get from efficient building practices. No wonder the cost of building a house is so damn high!
In a conventional joist above girder approach, you can just set the joist on the central beam, cut 'em in place, flip 'em up and nail 'em. No problem. However, I'm not as young as I used to be, and holding up, squaring and supporting an 18' joist with one hand is just not an easy thing to do!
Thanks for the replies Boss.
I always make a jig like the one you described to position the joists. I've never had any problem with it. I bought a pneumatic palm nailer instead of a gun. It's a whole lot cheaper, doesn't require special fasteners, can fit into very tight spaces, and works quickly.
I've used a palm nailer too for this. The problem is getting nails in place fast enough. I tried filling a small plastic bottle with nails and holding it in my other hand or trying to hang onto it with the pinky finger of the palm nailer hand. Neither way was too terrific. Maybe next time I'll try tying it to the nailer with string....
-- J.S.
don't know if it's been mentioned, but two words...
palm..nailer...
gets in tight places, not as expensive as a postive placement gun, and has other uses.
The better Senco model A9 is the only one I've used, but it runs smooth and quick.
Monkeyman
toe nail close to the top of the joist first. if it is pressure treated the longer the wait the better for next step. lot of shrinkage first couple of days. place hanger and nail up one side keeping bottom tight to joist. On the other side pull the hanger away from ledger one to two inches. put 12 penny nail in the top hole at a slight upward angle, say 20 degrees or so. when driven home it will pull the bottom of the hanger tighter than a ducks ####. nail off the rest of the hanger as usual. you could also place all the hangers nailing up one side only before setting the joists if they are all pretty much the same size.
steve