Went to install some light cans in the dining room yesterday only to discover that the existing wiring structure is a mess. And before I go make things better, I want to be sure I’ve got my info straight.
Lighting — Currently kitchen lights and dining room lights are on same 20a circuit with no-ground AC cable and some bits of 14-2 NMB wire tied in at various spots.
Proposed change is to switch to a 15a circuit with 14-2 throughout, also to add some low voltage under cabinet lights. (New scheme would have 7 dining room light cans and 3 kitchen light cans, plus the under cabinet stuff)
Question – Can the same lighting circuit serve both the kitchen and dining room? I’ve seen conflicting advice on whether the kitchen light circuit can serve only the kitchen, or beyond.
Receptacles — Currently the same circuit that’s powering the lights, also powers 3 small appliance/counter receptacles in the kitchen, 2 receptacles in the dining room, 1 receptacle in the living room, as well as the light at the top of the stairs one floor up from all of this.
Proposed change is to put the kitchen small appliance/counter receptacles back on their own 20a circuit, move the living room receptacle to a new circuit that serves only that room, move the upstairs landing light to the circuit that currently serves the two bedrooms upstairs.
Question – What to do about the dining room receptacles? There’s a mention in the NEC that allows the pantry and breakfast room to share the circuit with some kitchen receptacles. But I’m not clear on if this would include the dining room (hey, I’m not wealthy enough to have a room just for breakfast :), AND whether this shared circuit refers to one of the two required 20a ones from the kitchen, or the optional 15a one.
Replies
"Can the same lighting circuit serve both the kitchen and dining room? I've seen conflicting advice on whether the kitchen light circuit can serve only the kitchen, or beyond"
Basically there is no limit on what lights can be on a circuit. Also it can have any general purpose receptacles on it except for the kitchen, dinning room, bathroom.
In the kitchen and dinning room (and breakfast room, and lunchroom <G>) the receptacels are to be on the 20 amp small applance circuit.
You need at least 2 circuits serving the countertop. The other can be on those same to circuits or addition 20 amp small appliance circuits. They aren't suppoe to have any kind of lighting on them, but can have refigerator, wall clock, and gas stove.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill, that's very helpful.Just out of curiosity, once you've set the two 20a small appliance circuits, why would you need an optional 15a circuit? I know you could put a fridge on that in the past, but it looks like that's changed recently to mandating it now be on the 20. Perhaps my house isn't large enough to be faced with such weighty issues. LOLBest,
Steve
There is another rule for cord and connected applicances that "builtin". If that require more than 50% of the circuit than it needs to be on a dedicated circuit.For refigerators I am not sure of the order of that requirement and the exception allowing the refigerator on the small appliance cirucit.Since the receptacles serving the refigerator, DW, and similar are not acceptable and thus don't serve the counter top or the "room" then they don't have to be "small appliance" circuits. So they can be on 15 amp circuits, depending on the load.But you can elect to put the refigerator on one of the 20 amp small appliance circuits..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
One of the reasons for putting a refrig on a dedicated circuit is to reduce the chance of having the refrig off and spoiling food. If there isn't anything else on the circuit that could cause the circuit to trip, then the chances of spoiled food are lessened.Same logic with a sump pump.
Thanks Bryan,
You're right, and that makes perfect sense, though it looks like the code has changed to make the fridge now part of the 20a circuit...
Kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, refrigerator must be on 20-amp small appliance circuits [210-52b] [4203.2]
I'd assume you'd now have to make the fridge receptacle the first stop on one of the 20a circuits and then pick up with the GFCI protection downstream of that.
And to pick up on Bill's comments above, I guess I was thinking that this optional 15a circuit wasn't serving anything like the DW or disposal, but rather another set of receptacles.
I can tell that reference is old, as the changed the format from "-" ot "." for the sub-sections, although I don't think that this has changed, but I think that the order that they included and excepted things might have change."(B) Small Appliances
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or
similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered
by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment."
...."Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to
be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater."From the commentary."Exception No. 2 to 210.52(B)(1) allows a choice for refrigeration equipment receptacle
outlets located in a kitchen or similar area. An individual 15-ampere or larger branch
circuit may serve this equipment, or it may be included in the 20-ampere smallappliance
branch circuit. Refrigeration equipment is also exempt from the GFCI
requirements of 210.8 where the receptacle outlet for the refrigerator is located as
shown in Exhibit 210.25.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the clarification Bill.I'll bet that came from a page on CodeCheck's site that's no longer 'live' from the public end, but still accessible to the magic robots at Google.
What I was saying was about logic, not the code.Personally, I prefer GFCI breakers over GFCI outlets. I want just one place to go to see if something has tripped. My garage has GFCI outlets, and the outside light turns out to come off the one that is a far away as possible. Took me hours to track down why the light didn't work.I do the dedicated circuit for the refrig. Also the microwave, dishwasher, and maybe the garbage disposal. Sometimes I will put the garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit, if it is a long run to the panel. Note that this might not be code, and undoubtedly is not the manufacturer's recommendation. As far as I am concerned, no reason not too. And I generally make all plug circuits 20 amp, except the simplex in floor ones because I can only get 15 amp receptacles, at least at a reasonable price.
And then the customer shows up with one of those huge sub-zero ref.
I just finished troubleshooting a home where the gfci recp. was behind the ref. A pretty simple fix after the homeowner emptied the ref. and moved it out of the way.
Exactly!That's why I prefer the breakers.
> And then the customer shows up with one of those huge sub-zero ref.Yeah, you definitely have to allow for the most the customer could stuff in there. In my kitchen, the cabinetry would not allow this, so 15 amps is more than adequate.George Patterson
The problem was pissppoor wiring, not where the GFCI is located.No need or reason for the light to be on the GFCI.
"Sometimes I will put the garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same circuit, if it is a long run to the panel. Note that this might not be code, and undoubtedly is not the manufacturer's recommendation. As far as I am concerned, no reason not too."My house was wired in 79. So it has the 20 small appliance circuits, NO MORE.The refigerator, DW, instand hot water dispense, GD, and trash compactor are all on those 2 circuits. Along with the counter top MW and toaster. Also a few smaller appliacnes.New tripped a breaker.Probably the main reason is that GD and the trash compactor only runs load for less than a minute and the breakers have a long time inverse curve."And I generally make all plug circuits 20 amp, except the simplex in floor ones because I can only get 15 amp receptacles, at least at a reasonable price."You can put 15 amp receptacels on 20 amp circuits as long as there is more than one receptacle on the circuit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I knew you could put 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit (provided the receptacle accepts 12 gauge wire) but I didn't know about the more than one requirement. Why is that?I agree the problem is piss-poor wiring. It just seems easier to have piss-poor wiring down the road when someone changes the location of the refrig. and now hides that first GFCI in the circuit, and you have no idea it is even there.
First of all devices with 20 amp plugs are very rare. I have never run across one, but I have heard people say that they have. Most of them where food service.So in a home there is no need for 20 amp receptacles.But a 15 amp duplex receptacle is rated for 15 amp on each side and 20 amps feed through so that that it can be used on a 20 amp circuits. Don't know way you can have a singe 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit. No safety issue that I can thing of. But the code doesn't allow it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I haven't ever seen a 20 amp plug either, and I ask every chance I get. Just so I would know what one looks like, and what in the world might actually need one. I have heard that things like washing machines can pull higher amps at startup, but jeez, a 15 amp dedicated circuit should still be plenty I would think.Are all 15 amp duplex receptacles rated for 20 amp through? Or is that something I should check for, if I'm every in that situation?
AFAIK all duplex 15 amp receptacles are rated at 20 amp feedthrough. It is in the UL listings. I have never seen it on the receptactle.And it must be that way to work with the NEC which allows that.OTOH I have seen 15 amps GFCI's marked on the GFCI that they are 20 amp feed through..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I've got a 20 amp plug on my MIG welder and we have one on our plasma cutter. They look just like a regular plug but the neutral (I believe) prong is turned 90 deg from the usual orientation.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
> Personally, I prefer GFCI breakers over GFCI outlets. I want just one
> place to go to see if something has tripped.I prefer the outlets over the breakers, but I also want just one place to go to see if it's tripped. So, my GFCI outlets are the first ones on the circuit and they are both located over a counter beside the table, where they are highly visible.George Patterson
I prefer the outlets over the breakers, but I also want just one place to go to see if it's tripped. So, my GFCI outlets are the first ones on the circuit and they are both located over a counter beside the table, where they are highly visible.
I'm with you on this.
I like GFI's at or near the point of use, so you don't have to go chasing around to reset it.
Ed
I will not try to add to your info, but it might be helpful to the OP to know the wattage schedule for his area. ( maybe it's just in my geo area)
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"I will not try to add to your info, but it might be helpful to the OP to know the wattage schedule for his area. ( maybe it's just in my geo area)"I am not familar with a "wattage schedule"..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The only item I found on a search for 'wattage schedule' was a document from Lucas County, Ohio. http://lucascountycert.com/BR/appendixC.pdfI've not seen one for where I am in VA.
I guess it's just around here then.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Have you checked your local building department for local addendums to the code? They ought to have a web site expalining them if they do exist. I've got several local restrictions that would significantly impact the plan you're formulating.
Thanks John,Yes, I checked the city's site. We're on NEC 2002 and the only electrical code addendum is for the AFCI requirement.