I need to run electric power from the road to my future farmhouse which is about 400 yards from the road. The shortest route is to run from a transformer near my sister’s house, which is next to the road. But that means that my power line will have to cross her property and spoil her views. I’m willing to pay to have the lines run a longer, more roundabout route that stays off my sisters property.
my question is: does the power utility have the right to dictate where the lines will be run, even if its opposed by the landowner, or is it a matter of “whatever you want, as long as you pay for it”?
Thanks
Paul
Replies
You need an Easement, in writing and recorded, if you go across another persons property.
I believe his state does not require an easement.
Our local utility will do anything you request, as long as you pay for it. Of course it is best to be there when they show up, or you may find something you didn't want. Trust me, I found out the hard way.
My suggestion is for him to call his utility and ask. We can all speculate, but there are diff. laws and customs as well as quite a few companies and municipalities with each having seperate rules!>G<
But without an Easement, the property owner can refuse to allow power lines over his/her property. I am a lawyer, and an admitted in 4 States, Iowa, Illinois, California and Arizona. Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
If I remember correctly, there are exceptions for utilities.
Not a lawyer, but been there and done that. He really needs to call the locals!
So you neighbor, could run a frigging electic line anywhere across your property, and you have no say so??? OK, if this is true, this really is a retarded State. Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
There are limits, but not many.
Whatever State that is, it makes California look ultra conservative. Sheesh. A property owner has absolutely no say so over the location of someone else's power and utility lines. Unfrigging unbelievable..........Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
If you're a lawyer, then I don't have to remind you that public utilities generally have the 'right of eminent domain,' and ultimately can do pretty much whatever they want. Nor do you have the right to restrict their access, etc .... with or without an easement.
How else could 'call before you dig' become law?
Maybe in your State, not here.
Most lots have a general easement for power and cable going along the rear of the lot, and most have water and sewer easements in the parking strip. The concept that the Department of Water and Power could set up a high voltage power line going along my driveway without my consent is completely foreign to me and illegal here.
They would have to request an easement. If refused, they would have to pay for that right though eminent domain. Things must be different here. Sheesh, I'm glad I live in California--sounds absolutely barbarbic to me. Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I don't know the legal history, which I'm sure is epic but last year I did a project in a pretty tony neighborhood in Southern CT... nice houses on large lots. Well the local poco ran very high capacity new overhead lines on towers that rival the Eiffel and they went straighttttttt through this neighborhood, including one that I saw right smack virtually in the middle of someone's front lawn. When we saw that we were just imagining the poor homeowner's reaction, must have reduced their property value by 50% at least.PaulB
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There was a similar legal battle in this area a year or two back.Several developments were near a route that the POCO planned on using for high tension lines. They fought and fought, and the power company eventually conceded to bury the lines.The only problem is that I seem to recall the additional cost was something like $60m and the easement had been in place for ~65 years, which is about 45 years more than any of those homes had been there.NIMBY-ism at it's best.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Section 102240 of the California Public Utilities Code states "the district may ... condemn by eminent domain.'
Therefore, California public utilities may exercise eminent domain to run their lines where they so desire. Just because getting a property owner to agree by asking nicely does not remove this power from them. If it's important enough to them, and the property owner is unreasonable, they have the power to force their solution.
I didn't say otherwise.
The post implied that the government can do what they want without any say so or compensation. One poster stated that in his/her state the Power Company can just run the lines, and ruin the value of the home without compensation.
Not true in California. And the fact that most lots have, as a condition of being sub-divided, an existing easement for power lines, eminent domain is not a practical option for the governmental agency. Further, the trend is to bury the lines in most locations, so whether they run right through the front yard is not an issue, and does not impact the value. Quite frankly it is cheaper to bury the lines than condemn the property.
Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
The 'overhead' vs. 'underground' debate is a separate issue, and a subject of very lively debate on certain electrical forums. Either way, it doesn't change the easement / eminent domain issue.
My point is that, while the PoCo will try to be reasonable ... ultimately, they have the 'nuclear' option of condemnation proceedings. Nor need they purchase an entire parcel; they can merely ask the court to award them the easement they request. Compensation is another matter to be decided by the court; if it's simply a matter of lines passing over a property, without any actual contact between PoCo equipment and the property, I suspect that the 'compensation' awarded may be as little as $1.
Folks need to keep this in mind whenever they thing they have the PoCo 'over the barrel.' I've seen too many instances of a single property owner thinking he is in a position to be intractable - and all authorities that have 'eminent domain' powers are well versed in various ways of dealing with these folks.
Back to my BIL's claims...from Fla. Power and Light.
Who in your estimation would have power restored more quickly in event of an outage? Underground feed or aerial?
Barring cat 5 hurricanes or 100 yr Ice storms, just in general usage and average weather.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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What in FL would knock your underground power out?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The weight of foreclosures?
It's not what knocks it out it's how do you find what knocked it out.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Locally it all fed from transmission line which are overhead to the substations. From substations it is agian overhead distributions to those developements that have underground service. If an overhead transmissiopn line or distribution line goes down and it feeds an UG area, it is going to be as dark as any strictly overhead service area.
We have a priority system for restoration. Emergency services like police,fire, hospitals, civil emergency responce centers, and of course our own generating and operation facilities are first. Almost coincidentally with those are a list of custommers that are on some type of medical support equipment. If they can't be restored in time to avoid a medical emergency, we notify authorities to transport them. After that we look at the pattern of outages, select the repairs that will restore the largest number of customers. Then we move to the smaller pockets and individual services.
The real advantage UG service has is on the individual level. When we restore a circuit for an UG area everyone comes back on. We only have to rebuild to the pad mount tansformers. We don't have to survey the area for individual service drops that are down and cut them loose. Nor to pad mount transformer get the storm damage a pole mount might get, plus we seldom have to do a spill clean up from leaking oil. Heck it is just easier and faster to set a new pad mount than a ploe mount transformer. The final advantage for the HO on UG service is they rarely need an electrician to repair thier service due to storm damage, and they cut out the whole permit, inspection and reconnect process. A big $$ savings for them in the long haul.
You wouldn't believe the number of calls we get from customers on underground services. They seem to think it all comes to them, straight from the power plants underground.
" if it's simply a matter of lines passing over a property, without any actual contact between PoCo equipment and the property, I suspect that the 'compensation' awarded may be as little as $1."
Suspect all you want, In California, Appraisers will determine the diminunition in value. If this is a 16,000v Eiffel Tower going over a home, I think most appraisers would value the practical effects (no TV reception, view, and physical danger) far in excess of $1. That is an actual court hearing with the outcome decided by a trial judge.
Indeed, many homes below such high power lines are deemed uninhabital and the property suitable only for agricultural uses. So the Power Company simply buys the whole lot(s) along the line, and leases the property for agricultural uses.
There is a whole swath of these in Huntington and Redondo Beach and near LAX where the governmental units simply felt buying the whole line of lots was better than subjecting the homeowners to the nuisance and danger of electrical transmission lines.
That is why most new developments here are all underground to avoid the very issue of which the original poster complains.
Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Nice try. I challenge you to cite an example where simply passing residential service lines over a property resulted in the utility purchasing the entire lot.
The OP isn't going to require 200 ft towers with 100KV lines, and a substation at the base, to power his shack.
You don't live in Redondo Beach. There is a whole swath of homes, 2-300 feet wide, taken out for an Effiel Tower power line. I live here and see it every day. The power company felt it was cheaper to buy the homes rather than fight. Google Earth if you like, or not--I don't care at this point. You apparently don't want to listen with someone who has practiced real estate law for 30 years--you're smarter than me--I give up. Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
for all your vast experience, you fail to comprehend his challenge to provide an example of a lot taken over for a RESIDENTIAL service drop. He isn't talking about high tension power lines. Even an attorney should be able to note the difference.
Same principals apply in California. The Department of Power can not unilaterally go over private property with any power line without an easement or eminent domain.
Eminent Domain ("ED") is terribly expensive for the Public Entity, and strict observance of the legal requirements is required, including surveys, maps, an appraiser typically by an MAI appraiser, and the deposit of the money into an escrow. Then a lawsuit is filed, and the process can take up to two years to get through Court. The typical, and this is hard to say in general terms, the ED case could cost the City or Entity upwards to $50,000 in attorney fees, separate and apart from what it pays the landowner. Even if the payment is one dollar to the landowner. In larger cases, an EIR is often required, quadrupling the cost and time.
I've seen homeowners fight ED cases for years over the principal, and often the City just gives up, cuts a deal, or moves on. Unless the ED is for critical servies, hospital, school, police station, traffic control, the City won't use ED--they'll negotiate a deal or easement or something else.
Once you realize how it is done here in the Western States, you then realize what many of the Cities have come to conclude, which is it is cheaper and quicker to simply buy up the homes on the open market or negotiate an easement rather than condemn. I watched the City of Redondo Beach bulldoze a swath of homes 200' wide going 5 miles as a kid--all for a stupid power line.
So it matters not whether this is a 16,000 volt Eiffel Tower or a simple 220v 2ph drop over a neighbors yard--either negotiate an easement (easier, better, cheaper) or condemn. The legal procedure is the same, guys. You don't get a short cut for a simple power drop to a neighbors yard without his/her consent--at least in California.
Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
From personal experience in rural areas, often the utility will double clutch on asking them an opinon. They tend to answer as if they will be the utility contractor. So, they will tned to quote pole and overhead wire to rural customers. They will balk hard on u/g service.
What tends to be needed is a nice clear drawing that one can fax or email to a line designer at the utility. Use a big marker and title them out as u/g or o/h, then ask for opinions and/or details.
One major thing in rural instals is the meter location. The utility wants the thing near the road for reading, if not dierctly adjacent to it. This can complicate the wire sizing. As will future use plans.
On one project the client wanted an eventual cluster of buildings, which would be in a "campus" about 100 x 200 yards, and that 800 yards from the road access. Line designer said u/g was going to need three conduit (one trench) just based on the probably wire sizes, and a transformer pad for the eventual needs. Up-front prices on all that almost scuttled the project. Wound up with the utilit running in 600 yards of o/h to the future pad location, the utility contractor ran u/g from there to the house. This actually worked out, as it allowed them to light the entrance driveway for much of its length. (Meter wound up at the mailbox/ups drop point before the gate.)
Now, subdivision design is one of my "hot buttons." I really wish the CRs doing a bunch of that work in Texas could be required to have a utilities review before sign off. I know that, if I do one, I always take the drawings around to the various utility designers I can first--but that's from experience working in the Austin-San Antonio area, where you often need a rock-trencher to dig anything more than 12' deep, and 48" mains at 60-70" invert elevations are a major project.
So, OP ought to ask if the electrical utility has on-staff line designers. Then ask them "ok, if I supply u/g, what does it need to be?" Drawings will help immeasurably. Plat and area maps also very helpful. It might could be there's another way to bring the SD on the property not immediately obvious to the property owner. It might also could be it's a bit more complicated than a 50-60' SD from a pole along the backyard fence, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I can't speak for every corner of the world, but 'new service' generally requires prior approval by the PoCo as well as whatever town or county you're in. As part of their review, the PoCo will generally pass judgement on the location of the service. (For example, one place used to require the service to be in the middle of the wall, and now they require it near the corner of the building.)
The PoCo will also tell the contractor what he must do. Typically, this is nearly everything except the final hook-up to PoCo power. That is, it is the contractor who gets to plant poles and dig trenches. If you're doing this, make sure you know the PoCo specs; they're often different from the NEC.
I will readily agree that exercising 'eminent domain' is time consuming, expensive, and can have serious PR issues. Yet, I grow weary of those who assert an absolute right to obstruct the PoCo, or, for that matter, nearly every variety of 'public project.' If the PoCo needs to do something, they will. Period.
I agree!!
The PoCo will also tell the contractor what he must do. Typically, this is nearly everything except the final hook-up to PoCo power. That is, it is the contractor who gets to plant poles and dig trenches. If you're doing this, make sure you know the PoCo specs; they're often different from the NEC.
We generally set our own ploes and dig our own trenches to pad mounts and for pole mounts. We also supply very specific requirements that must be met from the transformer to the meter, be it overhead or underground. We must comply with the version of the NEC the is currently adopted by our state legislators. And, all services either temporary or permenent have to be inspected by the local authority as well as our own inspectors.
It is not difficult. We furnish very easy to follow instruction to both homeowners and contractors.
We are not a bunch of a-holes that you have to fight with to get things done. However if you can't follow the rules or think they don't apply to you, then shame on you. None of our requirements violate any part of the NEC, but may go beyond it in some araes. That is because experience has taught us that it is a better and safer additional step we can take.
Those that don't learn in this profession quite often die or kill someone else. We do our best to idiot proof our part of the equation.
I gather, by your wording, that you are writing from the perspective of the power company. Nothing wrong with that!
"Who does what" is one of those things likely to vary by local.
For example, on one job I got to make a 5 ft. trench (that's 5 ft after the specified bedding is down and the pipe laid atop it) from the building to the transformer, and a similar trench from the transformer to the pole. It was incumbent on me to run the first length od Schedule 80 PVC up the pole, and to have two more lengths on hand for the PoCo crew. The PoCo pulled wires all the way to the building, and terminated them at the building disconnect.
That 5 ft. trench is another example of variation from the NEC. The NEC might have required as much as a 30" trench for those wires; the PoCo wanted more. Lots more.
The NEC only requires that 'fill' be 'clean.' Our PoCo wanted not just sand, but a specific gray-colored sand (decomposed granite). Warning tape requirements are also likely to differ from the NEC.
A different job has an overhead drop to the pedestal for a mobile home. The PoCo planted the big pole that held the transformer; I had to plant the 20 ft. pole that held the meter and disconnect.
I go into these details just to underscore the need to work with your PoCo on these projects.
I'm having trouble picturing an "Eiffel tower" pole for residential service drops. Why do that when a simple telephone pole will work?
Like scooter said. Your sis has to grant an easement.
I'd be a bit concerned about having power run for "future development". Often a power co will run power just to get the business but for "future development" and a 400 yds run could be expensive...
You won't really know until you talk to the utility about it - they all have different policies so it's hard to even hazard a guess from here.
why don't you bury the line?
Around here in Ky, if you lose an aerial line, you will get back online a lot faster than UG. The faults are easier to find and no digging involved.
The last ice strom made that abundantly clear.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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True, but would not an underground line be largely immune from ice storm damage?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Forget the icestorm, just general faults and flooded conduits. My BIL was just here and was a head honcho at Fla. Power and Light and we had a good chat about the pitfalls of buried, that digging and tracing faults was the biggest.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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We run service to our branches underground in conduit. That way we can get the conduit in before all the pavement and curbs, and the utility co and the electrician can do the service later."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
yep thats the way I've done it, even left a line for them to pull wire at times.
My bad, I thought we were talking rural residential. Urban commercial is another thing altogether.
Dave R from KY Util, should be along and set us all straight.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Not your bad, just a slightly different method. I agree that direct burial is asking for problems. HO's could just as easily bury a 4" conduit and solve a lot of problems."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
There's a lot of direct burial primary and secondary here, and I rarely if ever hear of any problems with it, except when someone with an excavator forgets to call for a locate... or they call and not everything gets located.
Generaly utilities obtain right of ways for both over head and underground lines. Sometime those easments are not always apparent to the HO because it is not always shown on the develoment platt. Depending on the location of two properties that easment can be just about anywhere. A normal side by side set of lots would have the easment running down the property line and branch to the service drops as needed. If the original plot plan indicated the location of a driveway the utilities try to follow them if it provide the best route to a home and makes installation and servce easier (cost). I've seen odd shape lots and back to front lots sliced up by easments.
What the OP needs to do is go to the county office that records deeds, platt and plots. He may not see the easments on any of his documentation, but they are recorded in that same jumble of records somewhere. If he finds no such record for the properties then it likeley doesn't exist. From that point forward it is a matter of his negoiating skills and how deep his pockets are.
As a heads up to the OP. An overhead service easment is usually between 15 and 20' each side of the pole line. That means they are going to clear cut a path between 30 and 40' wide through you sisters' "view" to set that line.
The good news is that most utilities in todays market are willing to work with both of you to resolve the issue and you are willing to pay the excess charges they incurr, but you need to get all that staigthen out before anything is started. That means in writting and recorded with the county.
BTW keep moving up the food chain untill you reach someone that will compromise with you. Sometime those in the lower levels don't have the authority and willingness to help you. Sweet talk your way to the top both at the utility and the county records office.
>> My bad, I thought we were talking rural residential. Urban commercial is another thing altogether. << Not your bad.
RE undergrounds, here, all urban power lines are underground. In multi family developments (apartments) which is basically urban lite commercial, we pre-install conduit under C&G and pavement we install to avoid having to pay the utility to bore under after. in regular "yard areas", the lines are just buried. Or we can get all the power installed ahead of time and then the utility does all the work. On one project they charged me (my company) $500 for every sidewalk they had to bore under, which actually just meant pushing a steel pipe through with the "hoe" and then following it with a gray plastic conduit. Took about 20 minutes per. $10 (maybe) piece of conduit.
Here, for residential, buried services to a house are not run in conduit unless they are under pavement or otherwise subject to adverse conditions like very rocky soil. So, when I have a service run, they will put anything that will be covered with concrete in conduit and then leave the rest with just the conductors in the ground. So, the conduit is to protect the power line from physical damage, or may be there to facilitate pulling a new line. It is not there to protect from water. The ends of the conduit are left open save the fact that they have some heavy wires coming out of them. The mains that go down the suburban street are treated the same way.
I don't know about the big daddy mains that service entire areas, etc. I think they are in conduit though.
I'm pretty sure the reason they run rural lines above ground is purely cost.
I think I have a bunch of underground power install pics if anyone is really interested.
"In multi family developments (apartments) which is basically urban lite commercial, we pre-install conduit under C&G and pavement we install to avoid having to pay the utility to bore under after."
What have you found is the best way to mark/protect these conduit runs if they're installed early? Do you have a surveyor mark them and just tell the POCO where to dig, do you put a 90° fitting on the end of the pipe and turn up the pipe above the surface so it's clear where it is, or something better?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What have you found is the best way to mark/protect these conduit runs if they're installed early? Do you have a surveyor mark them and just tell the POCO where to dig, do you put a 90° fitting on the end of the pipe and turn up the pipe above the surface so it's clear where it is, or something better?
Around here marking the conduit path is left to the HO or builder. Same fo buried SE cable. What we do require is a sweeping ell and riser conduit at each end of a run, be it conduit or direct burial. That is for service from a pole mounted x-former.
For a total u/g sevice from a pad mount x-former we require an underground splice box xx' from the pad mount to be piped to the stubs left when the pad was poured. Conduit size is of course dependent on the service size and wire guage, but most utilities just issue a blanket requirement for 2 1/2" schdl 80 pvc for both ends. In between it is ok to use schdl 40 except at bends and pull points. All of it has to have a green state electrical inspection sticker on it prior to us hooking anyone up.
Dave, thanks for your response, but I'm afraid I was not very clear.I guess I'm more asking about a "sleeve" than a conduit. Especially on a commercial site, you may have the first coat of asphalt of the curb and gutter go in months before the final service connections are all made. I'm trying to get a feel for what is the best method to identify and protect a sleeve that will travel under some site work element (C&G, paving, other utilities, etc.) but will not be used until much later.Putting a sweep or 90° at each end seems like it's probably the safest, but you still have to watch it or your excavator will take it off with a bulldozer blade or the masons will nail it with their pettibone. I suppose one could just leave the end in the trench with a cap, but I can see that being difficult to find at a later date (if it's covered with 12-36" of backfill on top).Does my question make any sense?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Putting a sweep or 90° at each end seems like it's probably the safest, but you still have to watch it or your excavator will take it off with a bulldozer blade or the masons will nail it with their pettibone. I suppose one could just leave the end in the trench with a cap, but I can see that being difficult to find at a later date (if it's covered with 12-36" of backfill on top).
BTDT.
In a former life I was a superintendent for a GC doing commercial work. We never solved the damage issue either, other than back chargeing the sub if we could determine "who done it".
Well, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who could not come up with an elegant solution.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The power company draws up a plan for the site specifying the location of the underground and it's pavement crossings, etc. It isn't exact enough to need a surveyor and generally, there will be some point of reference to go off of like a new foundation. The idea is that some kind of final grade needs to be established. The power company gives us the conduit, dropped off in the form of a bundle of 10' sections. When we bury it we just tape the open ends, and stick a vertical 2x4 or whatever is laying around to mark the end.
I guess if all the curb and cutter (C&G) and subpavment was installed before we started building our buildings it would be different, and I do see that done sometimes, but I have not been involved in a project where it was done in that order. Part of the problem with putting the C&G too early is that it gets all torn up by heavy equipment, concrete trucks, etc.
I think you understand this, but for the other poster, this is not a complete UG conduit. It is just for where the power cable goes under the pavement.
What have you found is the best way to mark/protect these conduit runs if they're installed early?
I've worked on a couple of new power plants and we would back fill the trench about a foot, then pour a couple of inches of red marking mud, back fill to about a foot from finished grade and lay a metalic ribbon. That plus the end sweeps and lot plans did pretty good.
Red marking mud is a 1 1/2 to 2 sack mix with 0-1" aggregate, a 10" or 11" slump and plenty of red colorant.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
We don't get much rain here in Huntington Beach, but 6' elevation and 2 miles from the ocean makes for high water table.Underground power has not failed in 44 years, but there have been a few transformer/fuse failures on the above ground portions along the main thoroughfares.
BruceT
So - what did the utility say when you called them?
Construction won't start until next spring, which is when I'll take up the issue again...
We had an electric Co-op try to put a new set of power lines in front of the homes when the restrictions required and had given an easement at the rear of a 2 mile string of homes.
Some talk came about with the Co-op about burying it out front. They said to put it below ground costs "Seven Times More" than on wooden poles. In the end, the Co-op HAD to put the updated/improved line where the development restrictions said they had to go. By the way, those restrictions are just over 50 years old, but just as "air tight" as the day they were written.
Bill