I’m trying to choose service panels for a 400 amp service in a new home that I’m building in Colorado. My buddy wants Square D and I lean to Siemens. Neither of us are “builders” but we are doing well so far. I’d appreciate any tips or info on how to make this choice.
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See this is your first post, welcome.
My vote, square D QO line.
Query? Why 400A?? Chances are you will get big wires to the house, etc., maybe even a dedicated 100kW transformer, but cannot fathom needing 400A service unless you run a pro welding shop or amatuer wind tunnel on the side. Do you really think you will ever have 100kW going all at once? Monthly elec bill at 8 cents kW hr for 5% usage of a 400 A service is $270.
If you need more than 200 amps then get duall 200 amp pannels. Much cheaper than 400 amp pannel and will give you another 40 CB slots and that is probably the limiting factor.
You can get 320 and 400 amp meter bases that will take dual lugs to feed dual pannels.
I'd also lean a little towards the squard-d line. 4oo amps is not a lot of power here in the north central washington state where I can see 2 dams from my front door. Get someone to do a load calc. for you, as some of the electricians have posted before number of circuits is not the same thing as connected load. Bill's post about dual panels and a 320amp meter is the way to go, our shop does a couple a week...
Hi Tom :
I'm building my new home and I went with two 200 amp panels and would do it again in a heartbeat.I would stay away from general electric.I have them and I ran into some problems with them.
You can get the square D @ the big box stores. I think the Siemens you would have to get @ a supply house.If you are not in the trades sometimes the supply house wont sell to you,some thing to think about down the road if you need more breakers.
Greg
Lead,Follow,or Get the Hell Out of the Way!
I too have negative feeling about Siemans panels. I have installed them and they used obsolete slotted screws to attach the deadfront instead of something sensible such as Phillips. Don't bother with Siemans.
~Peter
Peter;I wasn't really knocking the Siemens panel(I don't know enough about them).Just trying to state that it might be hard for a layman to get the Siemans panel and breakers.In my neck of the woods they are only sold at supply houses which sometimes wont sell to you unless you have contractor license.
One of the G/E panels that I put in had a plastic clip that holds the rail that holds the breaker on broke and it is a major pain to fix.
Greg Lead,Follow,or Get the Hell Out of the Way!
>>I have installed them and they used obsolete slotted screws to attach the deadfront instead of something sensible such as Phillips. I don't think I've ever seen a panel cover attached with anything other than slotted screws (except when some Bozo has puit in Piffins, of course.)
I don't know about yours, but my church isn't a hotel for the holy, it's a hospital for sinners
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Actually SquareD QO covers come with screews that are Square Drive. They still have a slot for those who don't know what the little square is for. FWIW, the buss bars come with the same option.
kcoyner
Usually it is better to feed a 400A meter into two 200A fused disconnects and then feed your normal 200A panels through conduit. These panels can be widely separated and located for convenience, to keep the length of the home runs down or to be closer to large loads.
This setup gives you a lot of options at a relatively low cost compared to a single 400A panel.
Siemens is good. As are 'Square D' QOs. Avoid the 'Square D' 'Homeline' series. My current favorite is Cutler Hammer but not by much. They just seem a little better thought out IMHO. Their guarantee is also a little better. I don't think you could go wrong with any of them.
Shouldn't your electrician be making this call?
"Avoid the 'Square D' 'Homeline' series"
I'm pretty sure them's the one's my electrician hates.
ran into it in a remodel a year or so ago and heard about them the whole freaking time!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Curious as to why you (and others) say to avoid the SqD Homeline series.
I like the Siemans primarily because of the layout and room for wires. There are few things as frustrating as working on a QO panel when the neutral wire you need to access is the one on the bottom bus bar.
BTW, all the Siemans panels I have seen recently have cover screws with slot and square drive.
Edited 12/22/2004 9:19 pm ET by NORMEL
Homeline is the 'Square D' knockoff of GE. Homeline panels are just a little cheesier than the regular 'Square D' line. They are just a little harder to work with and a bit poorer design.Considering that the difference in price between the Homeline and QO lines is relatively small the Homeline series is a waste.Unlike some on this site I have nothing against slotted panel cover screws. Or slotted screws in general. They work. Can't say I have ever seen any panel covers fall off because slotted screws were used.The only place I really look for Philips screws is on toggle bolts. These I like to spin in with a crank-handled Philips head driver. Saves time on these long and fine threaded units. My driver is also a lot lighter and more reliable than a battery powered drill. I also have a slotted tip crank-handle screw driver but it slips more often in this role. Philips head are self-centering.
Touche'
The panel covers do fall off because you have one hand holding the cover in place, your second hand is holding the screw gun -- in your case a screwdriver -- and then the screw falls off the slotted bit ". I also have a slotted tip crank-handle screw driver but it slips more often in this role. Philips head are self-centering." so you use your third hand to hold the black slotted screw on the tip of the screwdriver.
But wait! You only have two hands, so you take your first hand and let go of the cover and hold the screw in place at the tip of your cordless screwdriver and, viola, the panel cover falls on your foot, guilitines four toes, ruins your boot and even damages the sock.
It is time for Sieman's to grow up and get up to date with this modern world. How do you torque a slotted screw?
~Peter
Send termite larvae and crazy woodpeckers to the famous M$, c/o Warden, Alderson Prison Camp in a plain brown envelope.
Since the screws all go into tapped holes, it doesn't seem like a great idea to me to start the screws with a power driver - I always start them with my fingers to make sure the threads engage peoperly.>>How do you torque a slotted screw?Why would you torque a deadfront screw? "Tight" is fgood enough.Here's how I take 'em off and put 'em back on:Note: I'm not an electrician and I hope the following isn't immediately condemned by the electricians here {G}After clearance and other safety checks, I look to see whether the breakers themselves (esp the main) actually support the panel -some do, which makes it easier. I also check to see if screws are missingI take out all but the top two. I take out the top left with my driver in my right hand and my left hand pressing agaisnt the cover just below that screww, and grab the screw with my left hand as it comes loose, still supporting/pressing against the panel with it.I use the heel of my right hand to hol,d the panel tight as I shift my left hand to the center and then let it support the panel as I remove the right screw.Putting it back, first I make sure all wires are clear of the screws' locations (see atached pic - I hate the middle screws on panels!)Then I reverse the process, but start the screws by hand to be sure the threads are engaged properly.I always tighten clockwise, starting at the upper left, to have a habitual pattern to avoid leaving one loose.I don't know about yours, but my church isn't a hotel for the holy, it's a hospital for sinners
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Re: "How do you torque a slotted screw?"Like the other 95% of what I do. By feel. Sometimes I recalibrate my touch by using the hand tool while attached to a torque wrench. Helps to always use the same driver. With practice you can consistently get it to within the range. Who torques a panel cover screw?In the rare situation where a torque wrench or driver is needed, aluminum and/or critical circuits, I use an adapter with a slotted head. Takes a little practice to line up and keep centered but no big deal. Easy.
In situations when I need to hold the panel cover, the screw, and the screwdriver, the third hand I use is also known as a "screw holding screwdriver". My favorite is:http://www.newmantools.com/kedman.htmbut they make several other styles such as one with spring clips that hold the screws. They also make magnetic screw holding screwdrivers but I also work on computers and a magnetic screwdriver can very effectively trash a hard disk (don't ask me how I know...)
Actually, if they would just install the screws with retainers then this wouldn't be a problem for anyone with any nature of screw head.But on the occasions I've done this it hasn't seemed to be a big problem (on your typical 150A residental board). Generally the board is "threaded" to accept the screws by slitting the sheet metal into three strips and bending the strips in alternating directions. So a screw will actually "go into" the target hole to a substantial depth, deep enough to hold the weight of the panel while the one screw is started. After one screw is 3/4 in the rest is a piece of cake.
to grow up and get up to date with this modern world. How do you torque a slotted screw?
LoL! Wouldn't they have to use the 3/16" hex screws to really make electricians happy?
Though, really, a couple of tabs on the bottom and two captured 90º lugs--like on a return air grille--would really be the most electrican-friendly. (Not least of which for the future work from diy meddling in the easy-to-open panel <g>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Another reason I like the Seimans panel are the two lugs on top of the cover that keep it in place with slight pressure while you drive home the screws.
I use Square D QOs exclusively. Most of my houses get 400amp (more accurately 320amp) services. The Power companies here will not issue 400amp meter bases to residential, so they issue the 320. My current jobs are using 63 and 71 circuits.
I typically use (2) 40 space 200amp QO panels. I have never used 4lorn's method of spliting the panels although it may be o.k. so long as you seperate them by floors, house/shop or something that makes perfect sense to the homeowner. I wouldn't necessarily split them based on home run length. It may be confusing and cause a lot of running back and forth between the two to kick a breaker on or off. I usually choose 1 location (basement or garage) to mount the panels. If I use the basement I try to organize all infrastructure (i.e. furnace, HW tank, pressure tank, electric, structured wiring panels etc.) into one area. That way it doesn't use up little bits of space here and there all over the place.
kcoyner
My current jobs are using 63 and 71 circuits.
That seemed like a phenominally large number--until I started ciphering out circuits for a 4/4+office & garage-hit 60 with no trouble. Now, that was some lavish over-design, too--but well within reason.
May have to do with my living with a 12 slot 100A Sq D . . . (but for only a 3/1.5 @1400sf).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The square d (QO NOT homeline) and siemens(tradename Murray) are both good panels.Siemens typically have separate neutral and ground bars which are removable or relocatable within the box.This makes them more versatile.As stated 2 200 amp panels can be better than 1 400 amp as far as space required for so many circuits. Todd
For the service entrance, check with both the utility and the AHJ. You have to make them both happy. Here, the DWP has only one make and model they accept for a 400 amp service.
-- J.S.
We have a 400A entrance, which splits into two 200A panels...Q0 Square D. I like it, although when we first saw it, it looked kinda industrial....and for those who are wondering why 400A, we're up in Canada, 2200 sq ft house, with a heat pump.....contractor allowed for a 200A entrance, electrical inspector added up the loads, and said no way.....by the time you have a clothes dryer, stove, heat pump w/elect back up, hot water heater, all the other stuff....most of the houses in our neighborhood have 400A now.