Electrical help flickering lights
A friend asked me to check out something for him which I can’t come up with an answer.
He called to tell me that his lights keep dimming when the washer is on, so I go and look at this for him. Sure enough the lights are dimming when the washer is running.
But not just in the laundry room, they are dimming else where in the house and on different circuits. They are dimming only when the machine is on the aggitate cycle. and in time to the machine when asit reverses aggiation. When he told me about it on the phone I thought is it was only on start up, you know that initial dim like when the shop vac goes on then it is back to normal. But these light are pulsing in time like a strobe light.
Put an amp meter on in and the draw is pretty even can’ t remember but I think it was 12amps. The voltage at the outlet is normal. And pollarity and grounds are correct. The machine has a start capacitor I think, not a run capacitor.
Any ideas out there, I would be more then grateful.
Replies
Oil the machine, etc.
Sounds like when the agitate reverses the motor slows down enough to kick in the start winding, your meter doesn't pick up the spike, you'd have to put a scope on the line to see it.
If above is the case, the start capacitor or start switch is likely to fail soon.
I have EXACTLY the same issue. Started when I got a NEW washing machine, so don't think the machine is the problem. There are a couple of other specialized electrical BBs that I'll try and let you know.
Their old machine did not do it either. See my earlier post to Bill Hartmann.
Edited 4/4/2003 12:14:46 PM ET by wally
Wally, have you checked for an intermittent ground on/in the machine? Unplug the machine and use your ohm meter to check the hot, neutral and ground continuety to the case. You should only have continuity on the ground. Inspect as much of the machine wiring as possible, looking for worn or skinned wires that may come in contact with the case when the machine is running (vibration).
Good idea I am going there this afternoon to look at some trim work I will take a meter along and do that. Already had the machine apart and did not see any thing unusual but did not test as you suggest.
Thanks to you and all but keep it coming.
If you are an epileptic you could have a seizure in this house from the strobe effect.
If it is not something "weird" like Dave suggested. Then they have a bad connection on the Line from the meter to the pannel. It might even the a poor connection on the main breakers if the main breaker is of the plug in style.
Went there this afternoon and checked as you suggested all checked out fine. Only had zero resistance between the frame and the grounding prong. They also told me that the problem is not intermittant but that the intensity of the dimming changes. I am leaning torwards the over head service. But will check the leads to the sub pannel on both ends.
Is the washer near the circuit breaker panel? It might not be that the washer is electrically affecting the power, but it's just physically affecting it. The fact that it's different circuits makes it sound plausible. You may just have a loose connection in the panel box and the vibration of the spin cycle is wiggling it enough to make the resistance go up and down. Try tightening the connections in the panel.
I had a similar issue with my furnace and my dad, a Registered Professional Engineer and general contractor, suggested this explanation. Heating season ended before I got around to taking the cover off the panel box, so I can't say for sure if the fix works or not.
Good luck!
Barbara
Well, mine IS near the sub-panel. I'll check it out tonite. Thanks.
The washer is in the same room as the sub pannel but not on the same wall. The wall is perpendicular to the washer. Th main pannel is outside,the sub is downstairs in the laundry.
Stuff like this always makes me a little suspicious of the ground/neutral circuit.
I was kinda hoping one of our experienced electricians might chime in on this though...........
If you're happy and you know it see a shrink.
Boss you are right.
Whenever you have a problem on multiple circuits like this it caused by a poor connection in either the hot or neutral supply some place between the transformer and your pannel.
THESE CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS AND LEAD TO FIRE AND/OR ELECTROCUTION!
IMMEDIATELY call the power company. Most often is on their side of the meter as that is the most exposed to weather. Even if it isn't they will confirm the problem, but you will have to call an electrican to fix it.
Good point Bill that is exactly what my friend thought, so he called the power company first, they told him that it was not on their side it was on his, after the meter. Then he called me to pick my brain, Now I am not an electrian but I know a good deal about it, learned it from my dad who was. I don't know if this helps but my little three prong test light reads that all is well, I have a ground and the poliarity is correct.
His service is over head and it is relitively new last 5 years, but maybe he should talk to his neighbors to see if they are having the same problem I think that one of them is feed from the same transformer.
Also they have had the same machine for a couple years and it was purchased new. But they did not notice the problem till this winter. We get late sunsets here starting this Sunday the sun will set at 8:10 or so. He does not remember it happening last winter. The sun will set as early as 4:30 PM in the winter so they can't pin point when it started. What I am trying to point out in a round about way is that summer lights are not needed in the evening as much as the winter here.
Wally,
If some circuits are dimming while others are getting brighter, it's a loose neutral. The clear diagnostic of this is to put a dual channel voltmeter or scope on the two poles of the service at the panel or service disconnect and fire up the washer. One leg will go up in voltage and the other down. You could use two voltmeters;it'll help if they have min/max capture.
A loose neutral might be on the utility side or on the customer side of the meter. Every termination from the xformer to the ground/neutral terminal bar in the panel should be checked and torqued to spec (and the proper way to do this is to re-terminate, not just tighten down on the conductor that's there). Obviously, the utility has to check everything on theor side of the main disco or breaker.
Utilities are usually pretty good about responding when you say "loose neutral", because if it's on their side (and it ofter is), they're responsible for the damage to your appliances due to the overvoltage.
If it's only some circuits that are dimming, it might be poor connections of the branch circuit neutrals to the neutral bar. Or a bad connection of the neutral feeder if the affected circuits are originating from the same subpanel.
The other possibility is a bad connection on one of the legs of the service. If you hook up the voltmeters and the voltage drops on only one of the legs, there you go. Look for the loose phase conductor. If any of the conductors are aluminum and you can't see the anti-oxidation paste (grease) at the terminals, that could be part of the problem (whether a neutral or a phase conductor).
I'd say that this is one for an electrician. If you call the poco and say that a licensed electrician ruled out a problem on the customer side, then they will probably respond. Used to be, they'd come out first. Isn't de-regulation great?
I've had cases where the homeowner complained about dimming/flickering lights, and the poco just put them off. For the persistent ones, the poco came out and did some voltage monitoring at either their transformer or at the service point. The utility industry actually has tables of acceptable flicker rates/severity, so it'a a matter of degree as to whether they'll do anything.
In one case, the builder tried for more than 6 months to get the poco to do something, and it wasn't until I was about to come out and do a formal power quality study (using a dual channel recording scope) that--lo and behold!--the poco decided to check their underground distribution splices. They found several bad ones, fixed them, and that took care of the problem.
My recommendation: either find a sympathetic dispatcher at the power company who'll send out a troubleshooter and find the problem or rule out the wires on their side of the meter, or an electrician who's got the expertise and equipment to document the severity and frequency of the problem, and rule out a problem on your side of the meter. Don't ignore the problem, it could be or become very dangerous.
Cliff
Thanks
I will print out your post and pass it to the home owner on Monday. Just one question though If I get what you are saying, (I may need to read your post more then once) Even though the outlet that the machine is plug into is showing proper ground the problem could be on the other side of the hot ie the part of the 220 that the machine is not on.
One added point when the furnance starts up the lights dim then go back to normal not any more then what is usual in most houses heren and I think that only the lights that are on the same circuit as the furnance are effected. The furnance is also on another circuit then the washer even though it is in the same room.
Wally,
In your first post, you mentioned that the dimming was on several circuits, not just the one the washer is on. My suggestion is to have a qualified person measure the voltage on the two service conductors (the two legs of the 240V, relative to the neutral). If voltage on one goes up and the other down (especially when there's a 240V load on), then it's a bad neutral connection in the utility drop or service panel.
If all the dimming is going on all the circuits on just one leg of the service, then it's probably a bad connection on that one side of the service. Could be the utility transformer (they do go bad, and sometimes one half will go before the other), the drop wire overhead (or lateral if underground), the meter socket, the jumper from the meter socket to the panel, or the breaker panel bus itself. The branch circuit (equipment) ground really doesn't have anything to do with the dimming.
As far as the furnace goes, you ought to figure out of the furnace circuit is on the same leg of the service. If it is, then that side is "weak". Although a furnace blower motor usually doesn't cause bad dimming--so I'd tell your friend to have the blower motor checked out. I think the bearings may be going bad. If they are, the motor will need more juice to get it going, and the high demand would cause voltage drop, and so the flickering.
One other thought--it's possible that everything is just fine with the connections. It could be that the utility transformer or drop wire is undersized. This will choke off the current and when something that needs a lot of juice--that is, any motor, especially the washing machine, air conditioning compressor, or vacuum cleaner--starts up, the voltage throughout the house will drop, causing dimmming or flickering. If this is a rural area that's grown a lot in the last few years, it's possible that the poco hasn't upgraded the transformer, so it's too small and can't support the voltage when motors start up. Usually this is real obvious with air conditioning compressor motors.
Talk to the neighbors whose service is from the same transformer. If they're getting flickering too, the transformer is likely the problem. Keep in mind that different people react differently to light flickering; what one person doesn't even notice, another can't live with at all. That's why the pocos don't get too worked up about such complaints.
Good luck--
Cliff
Thanks Cliff for all your help, you are correct as to my first post when the machine is going the can lights in other parts of the basement that are on different circuits as well as overhead lights up stairs that are on different circuits dim. If it effects every light in the house I can't say.
But it is in an older part of town 1920 house and there has been a lot of development further up in the foot hills that is not that far away. Also power demands in the neighborhood have gone up do to a lot of remodelding. This house has been completely rewired and brought up to code about 5 years ago. They dug out a full basement where once only crawl space had been, another story for time.
We may look for the obivious Ie loose lugs but beyond that it is probably time to plead with the poco to check again and if not get some in Qualified to check it and If all is well get the POCO to come out again.
Thanks a Million .
Wally
Edited 4/6/2003 12:37:00 AM ET by wally
Cliff
The homeowner and my self did a little poking around.
We turned off the power on the Main pannel by switching off the 200 amp main Breaker to check the lugs on the connection from the 90 amp breaker in the Main pannel that leads to the sub pannel then the connections at the sub. Why 90 I have no idea must of been what was in the electricians truck at the time.
Any way the main is an all in one pannel. Meter base, factory instaled jumpers to the 200amp breaker. then there are 20 spaces of which only 5 are used. With the main switched off and no meter movement we heard a buzzing sound like a transformer might make. This is coming from the side that has the jumper from meter to the main. It has a utility seal on it. But the last time I heard such a noise it was coming from a pannel with a rusty breaker bar and a poor connection. I am betting on either a loose connection or some corrosion on the connections.
He is going to call the utility company.
Thank again
Wally
You don't live in Texas near the State Pen do you?
No Idaho we do injections. So that is why Enron was HQed in Texas now I get it.