After 20 years of hands-on building experience, I decided that it was in my best intrest to go out on my own. So Jan.1 2002. thats what I did .But here’s my problem,I started as a framer and worked my way up to supervisor but no where along the line did I ever estimate anything of any real magnitude. Needless to say I have alot of problems in this area. along my journey of 20 years I’ve met and become friendly with alot of very established architects who send me prints all the time almost to much. I spend hours of time estimating and meeting with people to go over their projects some of them over a million dollars and I don’t get the job. out of the first years potential 24 jobs I only got 8.To be perfectly honest I am tired of wasting my time estimating these monsterous projects only to never hear from the clients again after I present my bid. The obvious answer is I am to high . The problem is that I do the work. I dont square foot it . I figure out every aspect of each job .I am located in Northern New Jersey [Bergen County] area. If anyone has any input I could sure use it , I don’t want to go through the same thing I went through this year again.
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Find a partner that can estimate for real.....and go make money!
You might not be way too high......you might be way of base...which might explain why they didn't call back. No way to tell from here.
I'd say......if you think your estimating is weak......are you sure you wanna risk your business on such high number jobs. Sounds like if you were off just a few pennies on jobs that size.....it could add up to the point where you are financing someone's new home and giving them the labor too.
Why not just stick to the small stuff you are confident you can estimate..and grow from there.
Makes sense to me. Like Dad says.....You never lose money on the job you didn't take!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
estimating, IMO, is as difficult as any other skilled task in building a house. that's why people go to dunwoody academy for instance, to earn a degree in estimating and blueprint reading. there are a thousand trick formulas for figuring out total lineal footage of plate, studs, sheets, etc. but you seem like the kind of guy that wants to figure it out on your own. why don't you take the prints from an old job, estimate the mats, and compare your take off with the actual invoices from the job. another way is to spend a couple of hours with a master list of all standard materials, options and finishes, etc, and go over it, backwards and forwards to double check yourself, so you don't miss anything. all of our lead carpenters have to do their own estimating. and believe me, there are some guys who always get a surprise that they missed. and always add at least ten percent waste to bulk materials. BTW, maybe those 2/3 bids you lost, would have been eliminated, if you charged potential customers a design deposit. this fee weeds out the kind folks just throwing a line in from the customer that really wants you. why waste your time? you can do it. good luck.
Rickey, Thank's for the feedback I would love to get paid for my time .I have spent weeks estimating on some large projects only to never hear from the people again. Obviously we can't get paid our normal hourly rate but what is reasonable. I am sure there is an industry standard. Maybe next time I sit down with a new client I'll just say " Before we get started I want you to know that ther is going to be an estimate fee involved due to the considerable time it is going to take to provide you with an accurate estimate."And if they balk I'll walk. what have I got to loose except more wasted time. Later!! TAG.
Tag-
A few points-
1. Getting 8 out of 24 jobs isn't too bad of you're in a competitive bidding situation- in fact, if there were 3 bidders on each job, you got your fair share. That's not to say you couldn't be doing better.
2. You may very well be wasting your time estimating projects that you haven't got a chance of getting if the architect is just using you as a "check" number to keep his favorite contractor honest. May be better to focus on some projects where you can be selected as the contractor ahead of time, and work with the client on deriving a price as the project evolves.
3. I own an estimating and consulting company in central New Jersey (Middlesex County), and could probably help you to cut your estimating time in half, improve the accuracy of your pricing, and provide a detailed, professional estimate format to your client that will set you above 95% of the contractors out there.
Let me know if I can be of any help.
Bob Kovacs, President
Constructive Solutions
http://www.constructivesolutions.org
Bob-
I was perusing the discussions on estimating, and ran across your post. I had a thought you may or may not want to consider. My idea, an estimating service that would, perhaps, bid all the projects for a contractor, with a minimum fee on a bid, and a premium on successful bids, perhaps a percentage or something. My thought is that I can spend alot of time on trying to put together detailed bids for customers, and it doesn't pan out, and if there were a specialized service the bids may be more productive, albeit site observation may be an issue. Perhaps, a construction service that deals with the homeowners issues, goes to the sites, bids them, and has a collection of trusted contractors to do the job, which is quite similar to alot of existing organizations admittely. I suppose its all about Adam Smith's thought on specialization, I would rather be a builder than a business man, and maybe you could provide (or already do) a service like that.
aoc-
I have in the past done work similar to what you mention, and I still do. I get plans from contractors when their own estimators are too swamped, and I assemble a material takeoff. I price the material, get sub pricing, and put together a manhour estimate for the job. The contractor then figures out how much he wants to carry for the labor, and for OH&P. Since each contractor is different in that last aspect, I'm not going to be the one dictating the final bid amount- that's up to the GC.
As far as offering a service like you mentioned at the end- no thanks...lol. I stopped GC'ing my own work because I didn't want to deal with the homeowner issues, etc., so there's no way you're gonna suck me back into that one.....lol.
Where are you located? I'd be happy to talk to you about looking at some drawings if you're interested. Uh-oh- hope that's not self-promotion......
Bob
Do not assume that you are too high! (or too low either) demand an audience with whoever you gave a bid for and tell them like it is. You earned that right when you completed a bid.
Politely explain that you spent a lot of time doing their bid and need feedback as to weither you are in the ballpark.
I for one refuse to bid or quote. Too much work for not enough return.
What I do is sell my ability and value, then I tell them to take the second grade math out of the equation. I tell them I'll do it for whatever the going rate is. (in my mind I have a darn good idea of what the actual rate is) I look them right in the face and say, if you force me to be too cheap, 'll do exactly like the cheapest guy will, I'll make it up with add-ons. Be honest and smile and who knows.
Don't ever expect your bid to sell your work for you. Too often a low bid will be used to beat others up. Too high and it's just ash canned. Sell yourself and don't worry about the number on the bid.. What you really want is last look. Someone will come up with a low number (rest assured) tell the contractor/ owner that you just want a chance to do the same job for the same number. Chances are if you do a little research, the low priced guy either makes it up in add-ons, cuts corners, or is frankly more effecient then you are and you need to go back and figure that out.
One other bit of advice I get from the big boys... They bid high and they bid often. When everybody is scrambleing for the first job in the spring they sit back, and once the others are all working then they go to work and command a premium.
Several ideas come to my mind that may help a little, I hope. Ask the customers that did not choose you, if it was the price or something else. 1/3 of Jobs bid seems OK to me. Don't bet that the low guys made to much money, you want to work for profit or fun? Work on the sales program, and the price may not matter so much. If they are spending large money, they are probably looking more for quality, than cheap. Ask Sonny, he will tell you to charge for the bids, find out if they are serious. Just ideas, feel free to laugh all you want. and a second to all that was said before.
Dan
I'd like to add (review) that what I've done is the past is to review the ones I got, then the ones I lost, find out by how much in both cases if possible, and most of all try to build relationships with the architects oir builders that I was successful with in the past. Repeat business is usually the best sales tool and the added bonus is the arch.s and builder's help to act as your sales "force", cheers,Phil.
As they say in Monty Python:
"Adapt, adopt and improve",the motto of the Round Table...
If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
Check out Bob Kovac's Forum on JLC Online; definitely worth a look.
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3e0cad27004d8179271a401e1d290611/Catalog/1133