How much would you charge to build this garage? The concrete has already been done. Materials are being paid for by homeowner. All that’s to be bid for is the framing, roofing, windows, doors, and siding. Your input is much appreciated.
1 1/2 story Building Specifications:
Framing
- 30′ x 50′ with 12/12 pitch roof
- 10′ exterior walls on first floor
- 2″x6″ wall studs 16″ O.C.
- 42″ wide stair case with a maximum 6″ rise per step, 12″ run, with stringers on 12″ centers (screw and glue on stair treads)
- Conventional roof framing-no trusses
- Eave overhang 18″
- Gable overhang 18″
- Steel “T” wind bracing or 2″x4″ diagonal bracing
- 3/4″ sub-floor over garage glued and nailed
- 5/8″ OSB wall sheathing
- 5/8″ OSB roof sheathing panels
- House Wrap
Roofing
- 30# felt
- Ice and water shield on all roof edges with drip edge
- Continuous ridge vent
- No gutters
Doors & Windows
- Install 9 double pain windows with Ice shield
- install 2 10′ x 8′ insulated steel overhead doors with lock and key
- 36″ steel insulated entry door with lock and key
Siding
- Vinyl or aluminum covered eaves, gable, and continuous vented soffit
- Vinyl siding
–T
Replies
9 years ago I hired a company that specializes in garages to build a 24x28 garage, 7/12 pitch roof, stick framed.
a couple of months later one of their carpenters had an injury---and they started subbing things out like the siding and roofing. for the next 3 years they subbed 60-80 garage roofs a year to me---some one else subbed the siding-----untill there carpenter was back to work.
Ordinarily what they did was---they subbed out the the foundation and the floor,and the overhead door
2 carpenters, or 2 carpenters and a helper framed,sided and roofed a standard 24x24,4/12 garage every 1 1/2 days
when I was subbing the roofs----we usually did 3 garages a week. I would often roof solo one garage in the morning, one garage in the afternoon-----and usually on Saturdays I would go roof the 3rd garage. the siding sub---working solo usually took about 6 hours( 9-3)
I don't quite no how the carpenters did the whole thing in a day and a half( they were in their late 30's then-----and one of them told me that they used to do one every day when they were younger)
sometimes I would be roofing one garage while they built another next door---- I can tell you, in 3 years I never saw anybody stand still, no one ever had to stop and think from the moment the truck arrived everyone was in constant motion untill they left for the day.
I never saw anybody in a bad mood either .Personally I loved it---- It didn't pay well---but I would do it again in a nano second.
your garage sounds a bit bigger though---- I doubt it would have taken them more than 4 days
hope that was at least a little help.
Stephen
$99,500
in 6 payments
How about $99,600 so you'll have six nice equal payments of whole dollars?
Edited 2/21/2006 6:31 pm ET by robert
say.. the first $500 was to prepare the proposalMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Now it all makes sense.
By the way, how is this for luck? A stop loss and an impending RIF all at once.
i love it when a plan comes together.....
i read in last weeks paper that they are calling up discharged 03's & 04's who still have a reserve commitment
my favorite example was a 30 year old female 03 who had been off active for 3 years and now has a two year old son
doh.... rummy , i hardly knew ya Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've reached the point where I no longer plan. Just along for the ride now.
If the end is near I don't want to end up working Solo, trimming or putting in stair rails. So, I've been keeping up some old friendships and trying to get a read on framing prices within a one hour drive of me. If I can hit
Been researching used lifts too.
Just takin it one day at a time now.
Aside from that, I got a call from a friend abut two months ago. He replaced the commander of one of our Companies that's downrange. The Commander and many of the PSG's were relieved of duty. He was in a bind for Competent NCO's and wanted to know if I would come help him. Much to my wife's Dismay I told him I would and for him to call the XO and work out the details.
I was later told in no uncertain terms, that I could go. But, I would have to leave my current position. Become a traditional drilling guardsman and volunteer. But, When I returned, I would be discharged and unemployed. SO, instead, they scraped the bottom of the barrel for a month and drug a few guys kicking and screaming.
They could have hired one of those passout patties to sit in my chair and help my SSG for six months, but no one could see that.
Mike, let me make sure I get this straight as I am not used to estimating yet.$99,000 for just the labor?
no.... $99,000 for building it.... includes the labor, the insurance , the liability, the skill-set, my overhead & profit
seriously...
what kind of a dumb thread is this ? i mean the question really begs a 2 hour takeoff .. maybe a 10 hour take-off
do you think Proposals and prices grow on trees ?
this is a 30 x 50 story & a half building.... and every one is a prototypeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The OP is probably on the phone quoting $99,500 to the customer right now.
He posted the same question in every forum on JLC.My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
Within 30 minutes of posting this easy question, he posted one asking how much to hang a bunch of sheetrock. I have to wonder if he seriously thinks he'll get a good number asking here. And I wonder what he has been doing in his career, and how long he'll last.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks for the marvelous replies. You guys couldn't bid a dog house if it landed on top of your heads. I have, however, been laughinng non-stop for the past five minutes. I guess you are good for something.
I didn't have time to wait for your replies anyway. I just thought it would have been interestinng to see if anyone had any rules-of-thumb they followed. Me, I just have a feel for how long something will take me. I also like to make $25 an hour.
Since I've only just started the business, I don't have a lot of money to buy materials before charging the customer. The customer buys the materials I tell him to. I charge for labor.
I bid the job $3,000 dollars for labor before I even recieved any replies. I figure the job will take me two-and-a-half weeks by myself. One week with a helper. I also told him I'd buy the nails. And no, I'm not going to sub anything out. Unless you have more work than you can handle, subs are simply for the incompetant.
And if you ever get $99,500 for something this simple, e-mail me so I can look out my window and see the pigs fly.-T
Here's something else we're good for...
Jump over to the Business folder and read the information posted by those guys who couldn't bid a dog house. Might keep you from loosing your shirt and having to take up residence in one.
Since I've only just started the business...
Yeah, we all got that part from the first post...
I dunno. Low on sense, thick skin. He might just make it."A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
JourneymanCarpenterT I think you really missed the point of all the banter here. While I don't necessarily condone it they were ridiculing your question. I think if you search this forum and the forums over on JLC you will typically see that anytime anyone asks a "how much should I charge for (name-the-job-ere)" the typical stock answer that everyone gives is $99,000. (And the banter is particularly meaningless and ruthless when someone posts a "how much should I charge" question without saying what localized region they are looking for the information in).
It's like I said to you over on JLC rather than asking everyone to tell you what to charge you should really be asking for everyone's help to teach you the mechanics of how to estimate and price a project correctly. The chinese proverb that says: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" and it sounds like you just want us to give you a fish.
" I also like to make $25 an hour."
Wow! I hope you mean that's just the wage you want to earn and not the Billing Rate that you are going to use to figure out a price for the job or you will sooner rather than later put yourself in the poor house with a billing rate like that. If that's your Billing Rate reverse engineering that in your own business that will leave you with maybe $16.00 per hour after all your Costs of Doing Business are covered. since all you are doing is providing the labor my suggestion to you would be to go to one of my web sites and download the freeware Excel Application we all call the PILAO Worksheet and fill it out to come up with a correctly loaded Billing Rate. If you need help with it you can call the phone number on the website and I'll even talk you through it.
"I bid the job $3,000 dollars for labor before I even recieved any replies. I figure the job will take me two-and-a-half weeks by myself...."
Two and a half weeks being 100 labor hours that means the Billing Rate you used to figure out the job is $30 per hour which sounds terribly low to me. Even with the average Labor Burden markup of 1.25 that would take a $25 per hour wage to $31.25 and that's just Burden not your Overhead & Profit so you probably are in reality going to earn only about $16.00 per hour at best as a true real wage.
"...One week with a helper."
You might hire a helper? You've got to have Worker Comp insurance in place before you can do that. Do you have Worker Comp lined up?
" I also told him I'd buy the nails. And no, I'm not going to sub anything out"
Well you are really giving this client of yours a gift. The nails (and you really should be using screws) while only an incidental cost are still cutting into that under-loaded Billing Rate of yours. Next job use the billing rate you get from the PILAO worksheet times the number of hours you estimate the job will take.You might also want to pick up Ellen Rohrs book How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love for a a lesson on just what to charge for your services and/or read David Gerstels Running a Successful Construction Company starting on page 166 for more on what and how to charge.Here's a link on this site for you too one of my posts regarding Logically Thinking About Markup.
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Unless you have more work than you can handle, subs are simply for the incompetant.
I sure work for a lot of incompetant people then.....
and make a nice living doing soknowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
Let us know how the job turns out, post some pics if you get a chance. Don't let those guys bug you - a lot of these guys are Builders and General Contractors, they're used to playing in a whole 'nuther league than Journeyman Carpenters.
BTW, my guess is that if you can build the 30 x 50 1&1/2 story structure described in your original post for $3000, and make it worth your while from a business standpoint, them pigs is already flyin' outside those 9 dual-pane windows.
Love to see you post some pics, day-by-day progress, to prove otherwise. I'm always ready to be educated - that's why I come here!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Journeyman,
Aside from all the back and forth. You owe it to your customer to walk away from the project, even if it is embarassing, if you get to the point that you can not do a proper job.
Someone could get hurt, and you could end up in jail if this thing collapses. Seriously!
I think you should make like a weasel, and pretend you hurt your shoulder or something. Or maybe even tell them the truth.
NO one really wants to see you do this and fail because it gives us all a bad name when a contractor F****s up a job.
Journeyman,
I thought the guys hammering you were being unduly harsh---( mike in particular being un-usually grumpy LOL)
but when you got to the part about how you like to charge $25/hour, how people using subs must be incompentant, and how nobody could get $99,000 for something this simple----
then I have to suspect that you don't yet have enough experience to grasp exactly what IS possible,or how money is made beyond swinging a hammer.
I WOULD encourage you to go ahead with the project 'though-------------if possible, because 3 weeks from now you are going to know WAAAAAAYYYYY more about this than you know now.
Best of luck to you,
Stephen
I don't think you guys get it, I said in my original post: "All that's to be bid for is the framing, roofing, windows, doors, and siding." I'm not doing the excavating, the concrete, the plumbing, the electrical, or the HVAC. Once the doors, windows, framing, roofing and siding (the only things I was trying to estimate) are done, the homeowner takes it from there. He's doing all the interior carpentry. From drywall to trim.
Do I have insurance? Yes. I am, however, biding in a rural area, where no other contractor does, nor are they required to. Nor do any of these other contractors pay taxes as employers. They pay $10-$15 an hour on a 1099 (Ellegal, but the government looks the other way). Tough competition when you're just starting out and trying to be honest to boot. This isn't New York, where everyone wants to pay through their noses and thinks they're getting scammed if they don't. I'd tell you where I'm located, but quite frankly, with some of the responses I get I just don't trust most of you guys.-T
T-
As already pointed out, you're never going to get any useful info here on what a project should cost- you're wasting your time.
I would like to say that you'll be working at Home Depot shortly (or should be, since you'd be making more money), if you keep pricing as you are. You stated that if you do the job yourself, you'd need 2 1/2 weeks, and charge $3000. As Jerrald already pointed out, that equates to $30/hour billed to the customer. If we back out $200 for the nails, etc., that you're supplying, you're at $28/hour. Let's assume your insurance is really cheap, and it only costs you $50 for your policy to cover this project- we're now at $27.50/hour. You've obviously got tools, a truck, etc., which cost money to buy, operate, maintain, and replace- we'll allow $2/hour for all that (light, but fine for this example). You're now at $25.50/hour, which is where you "wanted to be".
Now, let's consider that you've got to pay the 7.65% for FICA that your employer would normally pay- that takes around $1.75 out of your rate, to $23.75/hour. And of course, you've chased this job, you've probably chased other jobs that you didn't get, and you've spend time estimating, invoicing, and generally "running your company". Either you spent all of this time after hours (and hence "unpaid"), or you've cut into the 2,000 or so wirkable hours that you have in a year. In either case, you've now got to essentially spread your $3,000 over more than the 100 hours of actual nail-banging, which reduces your hourly "pay". If we said conservatively that you'll lose 10% of the 2,000 hours to these activities, rain, and other non-productive time, we just clipped a few more $$ out of your rate, and you're down to around $20/hour.
So, when you weigh out what you can get paid to work for someone else, the risk of injury, and factor in the risk you're taking in constructing buildings under your own name (I'm assuming you haven't incorporated, so you're risking everything you own, or potentially will own in the future), why in God's name would you possibly waste your time doing all of this for $20/hour? I wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of money, yet alone risk my life and my family's future for it.
And btw- regarding your comment in your "drywall estimate" thread where you said that no one around here had a clue about how to estimate:
I've personally estimated a little over $4 billion worth of residential and commercial construction, successfully managed more than $150 million of work myself, and taught and consulted several hundred contractors on how to succeed in this field. I've seen "know it alls" like you come and go by the hundreds- you think you know it all because you've got a level in the gunrack in the back window of your pickup truck, and you're billing yourself out at $2/hour higher than what you were being paid as an employee- "I'll show that boss of mine- he's not gonna make a fortune off'a my sweat". Sooner or later, you'll either realize how screwed up your business practices are and attempt to learn from those who can help you, you'll go back to work for someone else with your tail between your legs, or you'll end up wearing an orange apron and repeating "Liquid Nails is in Aisle 5". Please don't insult my intelligence with your comments- instead you should be thanking me for spending the last 10 minutes writing this reply in an attempt to help you succeed.
Bob
Calm down there Journeyman. You should be getting a very good education if you'll read and understand what is being said. Instead of getting defensive, go back and reread. You got some very excellent advice.
Anyways, don't worry about what your competition is selling their labor for. If all your trying to do is be a low bidder, tell your friend that you'll do it for nothing. You MIGHT be lower...some guys might actually pay to get the experience.
blue
Go to your library and look for the National Construction Estimator book or something like it.(blue book etc). Basically, what these guys are saying, we arent doing your homework for you. Estimating takes a lot of work=$ .
journey... ok.. you're going to bid it at $3,000
so the owner gets his weathertite shell building for materials and $3,000...
HOW MUCH DID YOU LEAVE ON THE TABLE ? anything yo left on the table is coming out of the mouths of your family and into the owner's pocket..
what did he do to deserve his reward at the expense of your family ?
he found a fish who would work for wages.. that's you.. a fish
suppose you had bid $4,000 ... would you still have the job ?
what about $5,000 still wind the job ?
$12,000 .. i bet you'd still get it
a 30x50 wethertite shell is 1500 sf.... and the 2d floor at that roof pitch is another 1000 sf ..
if it were all on the first floor ,it'sthe equivelent of 2000 sf of weathertite shell..
you are providing nails and labor, insurance, liability, reputation, risk of injury, 2 weeks of your life... all for the grand sum of $1.50 a sf
gimme a break..
you have to get over the idea that you are a clever carpenter and work on the fact that you want to be a Contractor.. how does building shells for $1.50 / sf help you move your Contracting business forward ?
do you want your business to succeed or do you want to go on trying to make a wage of $20/ hour if you bust your azz
if you don't want to maximize your profit for the long pull you should find someone who would appreciate your hustle and will pay you a good wage..
if you are going to base your pricing on what you THINK someone else might charge, you are doomed to fail
you have to identify YOUR costs and figure out how much you need to mark up to make the income you need to justify being in business
if you are not willing to do that , then you should go work for someone elseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"you are providing nails and labor, insurance, liability, reputation, risk of injury, 2 weeks of your life... all for the grand sum of $1.50 a sf"
Point well taken. Now were getting somewhere. How much would you charge per sf? That's what I would really like to know.-T
i never charge by the sf..
i always get paid to prepare a Proposal, i define the scope of work, then i give them a fixed price ..
i get a deposit with the signed Proposal and they get on my schedule..
the only way i could determine cost / sf
is to do the proposal, determine the sf & then do the math.. but i will never use that in pricing
also.. you are looking for a labor only number.. and a labor only number is a higher price for me than a complete labor & materials fixed price.. since i have to recover more overhead & profit on the labor only.
what one of the guys wa talking about.. number of production hours in a year
start with 50 weeks x 40 hours = 2000
then back out all the time you can't pound nails.. with us.. i figure 1600 hours /man / year
that is all we have to make our nut.. so each hour is SUPPOSED to generate a certain amount
if you are basing your year on 2000 hours at $25/hour... but you're really only getting 1600 hours then you are starting at $20/hour.. and you're already in the hole
young dudes figure they'll make it up in volume.. but all they do is burn out or go bustMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks. Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. I was looking at it more from a "what are other people expecting me to charge" point of view. More and more, though, it seems this is the wrong way to go about it.-T
well, it took me a long time to figure out that customers don't have a clue what you
are supposed to cahrge.. if they did, they wouldn't need us..
and if you come in higher than someone else.. what does that mean ?
nothing or something.. but the real truth is.. the other guy pobably has no clue about what they are supposed to charge either.. adn we all jsut run around guessing what to cahrge..
sit down and figure out how much you want / need to make.. that's how much you charge.. if you don't get the job.. move on to the next one.. better to stay home and be ready for the good ones than to get bogged down in the bad onesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
better to stay home and be ready for the good ones than to get bogged down in the bad ones
Mike, that is one piece of advice that I learned to live by fifteen years ago. Before that, I survived 15 years of hell!
Now, whenever we are told that we are too high and we can have the job for x amount, I just look at the builder and tell him that it would be better for me to write him a check for $5000 and walk away from the job. That way, I'll be available for a profitable job when it comes along, instead of being bottled up with a 6 week dog!
I hate those 6 week dogs! They ruined my business for 15 years!
ARF!!!!
blue
Mike Smith: "sit down and figure out how much you want / need to make.. that's how much you charge.. if you don't get the job.. move on to the next one.. better to stay home and be ready for the good ones than to get bogged down in the bad ones"This has my vote for the best answer...
Thanks. Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. I was looking at it more from a "what are other people expecting me to charge" point of view. More and more, though, it seems this is the wrong way to go about
I think it's starting to sink in.
Go back and re read the entire thread again now. You'll learn something new, now that you've opened your eyes a little.
blue
If this is duplicate advice, I apologise.
What if you get hurt and can't finish? You have a contract to fulfill, so YOU must hire someone to make good on the project.
If you don't have enough profit in the job, you end up paying the sub more than you get from the job. "Insult to injury"
Protect yourself and your client by charging enough to insure completion. Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
I have found that the folks with the most money are also the cheapest SOB's to work with. To hell with them I say.
T,
Point well taken. Now were getting somewhere. How much would you charge per sf? That's what I would really like to know.
try this exercise
Figure out your monthly costs such as:
A truck Payment.
Insurance on a work truck.
Business insurance
Disability Insurance and Health if you provided it.
A cell phone
Fuel/Oil and other vehicle expenses.
Computer and Internet access.
Tool replacement/ upkeep.
Admin costs such as stationary and business cards.
accounting services.
Now, you may own your truck, but your a fool if you don't at least plan on a $300 per month payment for budgeting purposes. your wife may provide the health insurance, but your on crack if you don't include at least $300 monthly for some kind of coverage. Even just major medical.
Now, how much do you want to make per week before taxes? Multiply that by four and add it in.
NOw in the begining you may be willing to eat soem unpaid hours after your normal work week for estimates and office work. So, add all of those numbers together. Add on 15%. Divide by 160, the number of hours you will work in a month.
Now, you should have a per hour figure. Figure out how long in man hours this will take you, and if you've not tackled something this big on your own, add 33% more hours onto that. Now, multiply what you need per hour by the number of hours you need and you have how much YOU would charge for it.
The above is a VERY rough way of coming up with what YOU would charge for this job. Once it's done you can look back at it and make adjustments, and maybe come here and ask guys like Mike, Bob and Jerrald for some sound advice.
You might be tempted to eliminate things like the truck payment from your expenses because you might own your truck. Or, the health care bacuase you get it thru your wife's job. Don't! Life is funny and you never know when you might need to be the insurance provider for the family or when your truck might die and you'll need a new one.
From experience, DOn't be the cheap guy. You might think it's a good way to get busy and then you'll be bale to raise prices from there. The price raising part never happens for about 90% of the guys who try it. Instead, they just "Busy" their way right into bankruptcy.
The area I live in is crawling with guys who bid by " What the rate is" and they are all going broke slowly. Charge what you need to make.
By the way, I can't tell you what i would charge for that because I've not made my living as a carpenter since early 2002. But I can tell you I would charge a whole hell of a lot more than $3K just to frame it.
JourneymanCarpenterT- "Point well taken. Now were getting somewhere. How much would you charge per sf? That's what I would really like to know."
Boy JCT, you are just going from bad to worse around here. So now you think Square Foot Estimating is the answer? Boy are you niave and fooling yourself. The Hidden Dangers of SF Estimating.
Rather than telling everyone what the answer you want is why do you get a little bit of humility and ask some good questions about how to really estimate and price projects. You may very well be a super skilled Journeyman Carpenter but more and more I think you don't have a clue about how to run a carpentry business.
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I think you don't have a clue about how to run a carpentry business.
Jerrald, NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO RUN A CARPENTRY BUSINESS!!!
because it ain't a business!
blue
T,
Get Jeralds PILAO worksheet. It won't take but about 20 mins to fill out.
FYI, I looked at the one I filled out for my charge rates.
Pay $6.50, charge $23.74; Pay $22.50, charge $72.12. That's with benefits in OH,and under a weighted markup scheme, which I'm not using.
Your mileage WILL vary.
SamT
The input/prices that these guys have given you does vary from your local , but the practice should be the same anywhere you live/work. Just because the "other guy" is paying carpenters $10-15 per hour on 1099's is only part of the equasion. There is the cost of over head that many over look, some of this was already pointed out. But there is even more to this equasion.
What about the "other guy". Does he mark up his materials for overhead and profit? You take a building, say $10,000 in materials, and leave out $2,500 in profit and overhead, and that is like taking $2,500 from you and your family. This goes for the 20% markup for p/oh on your $3,000 labor estimate. You are leaving $750 on the table too(or $600, depending on how you determine your method on markup)
I have known many, many cabinet makers that could never see where they are/were going wrong. Most of these guys are now out of buisiness, or constantly struggling. The same goes in the other building trades. The same goes for giving out complete bids/plans/drawings for others to work off of.
Remember that you only get paid what is left at the end of the job, not at the beginning.
Another thing, I would imagine that almost every one of the previous posters learned this the hard way, too. That is why they have been so agressive in their replies. They don't want you to learn by your mistakes, but by what they have already learned.
This is the same thing that I tell my kids (and they just usally have a blank look on their faces when I do).
As a matter of fact, I'm going to order some of the suggested reading material and send it to a friend in So Cal, along with this completed thread. We have had many loooong talks about this very thing.
Migraine,
Once your friend reads them, tell him to hand them to his wife and have her read them.
Then be prepared to be grilled on why he isn't doing things "by the book"
Bowz
< I'd tell you where I'm located, but quite frankly, with some of the responses I get I just don't trust most of you guys.>Do you think that anyone here thinks hunting you down is worth their time? Perhaps you got your chops busted. What, you've never been on a jobsite before? No wonder you're working alone- you've got really thin skin.I've had Bob W berate me several times. I guarantee I could find where he lives in less than 2 hours. So what? For what? No one here is going to leave their business to yell at you in person for being ignorant.But thanks for starting this thread. It just reinforces my belief that I would love to sit down with guys like Bob Kovacs and Mike Smith and Dieselpig to pick their brains and learn something. The amount of experience and knowledge here is immeasurable.Take advantage of it. Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.And, by the way, I don't much like Bob w's posts in things political. But I'll bet he could teach me a great deal about what he does. Why make enemies. Sit up and listen. I know I will.
Very well said. Whereas a lot of peolple are cracking jokes at 't's expense, I'm sure that like me, others feel the same way about the volumes of information many of these experts provide at their own time and expense.
How do they factor in "Free Advice" on their books? Do they just add that to the cost of their next proposal?
Unless you have more work than you can handle, subs are simply for the incompetent.I am capable of doing carpentry, plumbing, electric, drywall, spackle, paint, roofing, siding. Understand all of them some. Regular jerk-of-all trades.I'm don't have much work at all right now. But, if I need it done fast or better or licensed, then I sub it out.I'm not incompetent. I think I'm using my brain.
Hey guys, I need to bid a dog house.
Is this where I get it priced for me?
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
I have stated before a price ( Quote, Tender ect. ) is an educated guess brought to two decimal points. Regions with diffrent tastes, pricing of supply's and in acceptable quality makes a GREAT diffrence in what you are going to 'Bid' in at. Around here seems if you plant some poles in ground @ 6ft. o/c, stap poles w/ 2 x and place trusses 6'o/c , purlins 2'o/c and cover the whole thing with tin, AND do it in less than a week, is what they want here for a "building". Hard to practice 'Fine Homebuilding' with that attitude prevelant.
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!
Go to your local library and look for the latest "National Construction Estimator". Try the reference section first. There are several other estimating books also. Let us know how it turns out.
now now quit beating around the bush and come out with it. What, are just supposed to guess at what you mean?
Gawd those words above - "stop loss" sheesh I about had a heart attack just readin that. Someones been in the military. "A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
I'm sorry, Mike. I must have said it wrong.I didn't mean JUST labor, but meaning NOT including materials.Trust me, I wasn't questioning you, just trying to learn from your experience.And you have a heck of alot more than I do.
tash.. no, i'm the one who's sorry.. i didn't mean your question was dumb..
i meant the thread is dumb...
now..... lemme axe u.. how much would you build it for, given the parameters of the original post ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Having taken a moment to think before tying, I'll take some of your advice:
Acouple hours to figure it out sounds like a fabulous idea.I'm not fast, and I'm sure I'm not as good as you or Brian (Dieselpig) but i know I would sub out the roofing ang the garage doors.I also know, to save face, I would have put more info about how I'm estimating before asking. 'Did I do this well' as opposed to 'What should I charge.Tonight I have to start figuring estimates for a finished basement and a deck.The deck will be easier. My friends say $65-$67 a square foot, turnkey.I will be in at about $40 or less. I believe I will still make $$, but I'm not that dumb. It's a favor for a friend, and I want cash.But for both jobs, I have 2 friends I do work with that will let me run stuff by them to check my methods and help correct any mistakes.Thanks for your time, Mike.Glenn
tash.. last 1 car garage i figured.. came out to $70K
and another 1 car came out to $48 K...
unbelievable.. but, that's what they were going to cost if they wanted everything on their wish listMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was thinking $38,421.17. 2+3=7
well, that will cover the 2d floor, now..
what did you get for the first floor ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Assuming by 1 1/2 stories he means that the second floor is half as big as the first thats 2250 Sqft.
10 ft first floor.
He doesn't specify what the second floor will be framed of, but does talk about a 12/12 roof. On 30 ft span with an 18" over hang those rafters aren't a mile long but they won't be short either I'm thinking 24'
5/8ths on the walls.
9 unspecified windows, one unspecified entry door and two unspecified garage doors.
Siding and Facias.
Some sturdy stairs.
Including material and labor but not site and concrete work your talking about $44 a sqft. As far fetched as some might see that, it isn't far fetched at all.
Don't forget he mentions not word one about mechanicals. Will it be heated by Kerosean heaters? A big block of Ice and a fan in the summer?
$99, 500 might actually be cheap.
Hell, Yesterday I got a call on my cell phone from my old partner. He was putting in a stair rail that consisted of Box Newls, a custom cherry rail and cherry balusters. He was having a layout problem and since I was the one who taught him how to install rails in the first place he wanted to run it by me to see if he was missing something.
This Rail was on the stairs, in a four stall horse barn. $400K total job.
There two floors?. 2+3=7
<<<<
1 1/2 story Building Specifications:
Framing
30' x 50' with 12/12 pitch roof
10' exterior walls on first floor >>>Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You made a good point, I left the second floor off, so I would have to eat 60k out of my pocket. The owner would not have to add to the bid because it was my fault. and since I signed the contract at 32 k, thats final. So coming in with a high price would not be a problem, this one bit me.. 2+3=7
$99,499.95
I'm getting a root canal tomorrow, How much should my Dentist charge me?
Now you're just trying to be silly.
Thats right, everyone knows that Root Canals are $300 per sq ft.
Then I can't understand how dentists make so much money.My mouth isn't that big.
Volume,
If they only charge $300 per sqft then everyone with teeth will be running to them for Root Canals. Never mind that it costs $299 per sqft in materials. They'll make it up with how busy they'll be.
But he owns his Mercedes and Jaguar, so he doesn't have to factor that cost in
Exactly
a person ask me how much his car was worth if he tried to sell. I told him " as much as you can screw somebody out of plus one dollar" If he can find somebody to pay 100 dollar for it then its worth 101. if he can find somebody to pay 10,000 for it, then its worth 10,001.Its not personal its business. Hey that how they figure your property tax.So how much to charge to build the garage, As much as you can screwed them for. $99,506.61. 2+3=7
I've been doing the same thing for years:'What is xxx work going for per xxx.'But a guy i do alot of work for has lost jobs because he is too high AND because he was too low.Gotta figure what you want, not what everyone else gets.
I'm getting a root canal tomorrow, How much should my Dentist charge me?
$40. an hour should cover it.
We are looking for a ready-made barn/garage plan exactly like the one you are bidding on and we are hoping to have it built for $50,000 (with no true second story, just a small loft at one end). Do you know if the plan was an existing, for-sale one and where I can investigate further? We are trying to cut out the cost of an architect. Someone said to check out prefab manufactured barns/garages on the internet.
See, we were wrong all along. You have new customers emailing you already. Plenty of business. DanT
See, we were wrong all along. You have new customers emailing you already.
Maybe we should all start asking these types of questions- it seems to be great marketing....lol.
Bob
"Please don't insult my intelligence with your comments- instead you should be thanking me for spending the last 10 minutes writing this reply in an attempt to help you succeed."
Thanks Bob, except for the part about "The Home Depot" and all that is. It was last night when I was thinking: "Bob Kovacs," haven't I seen that name somewhere before? I just re-visited the JLC website and realized you were the estimating moderator.
I don't believe I received a response from you when I first posted at JLC, and I wasn't expecting a moderator from their site to be posting here at Breaktime. I wasn't familliar with your name because I've never subscribed to JLC until recently (my first issue hasn't even arrived yet), and I've always been more into the nuts and bolts of things until now.
If you represent one of the same magazines as Myron Ferguson and Gary Katz, I'm sure you know what your doing. It's just that in this business, everyone talks big. It's only when they back up that talk with either knowledge or credentials that I give any credence to it.
Just because someone has experience as a carpenter, doesn't make them a good estimator. If it did, I would've got the few good replies I recieved a long time ago, and you wouldn't have a job. There would also be a whole lot more carpenters working for themselves right now.
I think it's really cool you're online sharing what you know. I hope you're not the type that holds a grudge.-T
No grudges here, T.
The thing you have to understand is that the guys at this forum and at JLC are constantly bombarded with questions like "how much per SF do you charge for XX?" or "what's the going rate for YY?". It gets old after a while, because no one realizes that it's absolutely foolish to rely on cost data from someone 1/2 way across the country, or even someone in your backyard- their costs of doing business are different than yours. It also comes across as someone trying to take the easy way out when you list all the specs for a garage, and ask for a price- no one's going to spend the time estimating that project- especially when the pricing is meaningless.
The guys here and at JLC are top-notch, and are more than willing to help and answer questions, provided that the questions are posed properly. If you had said "I've got a garage project that I'm looking at, with the following specs. I'm having a hard time coming up with a bid, but so far I've come up with ___ hours, and a rough price of $____. I'm not sure I've got enough time figured for _____- I assumed ____- what do you guys think?" you would have gotten far more meaningful feedback.
It's all in the delivery, which is made difficult because it's impossible to convey tone over the internet.
Regards,
Bob
Small world eh T?
Stick around, you seem to have dropped the attitude a bit. You got some good advice from a few well seasoned guys here. You could have payed a lot of money to get a lot less.
I'm 47. Almost 30 years in the trades now. There are carpenters, and there are business men. I have recently decided that I am a better carp than a business man, ans so far it is working OK. I worked for myself the better part of 20 years.
If you are a decent carp, learn to do the business part first and foremost. The carp part will follow.
Pay yorself, take good care of your family. Don't work for chump change and think you have made the big time.
And listen to Mike Smith!!
Good luck.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
T, It's refreshing to read a thread and see a decent ending to it. If you read enough here you'll see some pretty heavy discussions............some making sense, some not. Too often the attitude going in is the same going out. This thread has progressed quite a bit.
I admit I sat here and said to myself most of what you have heard thus far. I can see where a newcomer here could easily misunderstand 90% of what's written. Finally someone who can adjust their way of thinking, who'd have thought.
In the beginning I read here for a while b/4 posting and luckily I didn't get lambasted the first day. I've been here long enough now to feel like this site is my seat at the local bar. It's true, they do give a hard stare to whoever walks in the door. But like that corner bar..........people here will stick with you.
Just don't talk politics.
thanks and welcome to BTA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I agree with you Calvin...it does look like it has a good ending. I think he will be a valuable member. It took me a lot longer to get the "30" years experience, and I am still a lousy businessman. I just got burned yesterday...my fault. Owner insisted on buying the materials then didn't place the order on time. Order desk calls just before cut-off to aske me what to do. I call, owner's wife says go ahead and you order it. Now he is squawking over the mark-up.
I still have to catch up to him to beard that monkey.
Some people are lucky and naturally fall into this business thing.
Others like us have to work at it.
If all you had to do was the work, it would be a pc. of cake. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Amen, brother.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
ah, what the heck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I started out charter member of FHB, dropped them for awhile, came back and picked up JLC over 3 years ago.
Like a lot of things in my life, I seem to go at things backwards. I started in the trades in the early 60s took off for "greener" pastures. I came back about 6 years ago and just continued to piddle around, mostly repairman stuff. I had worked employees in another life and did not/do not want that hassle.
I teach full time and work about 25 hrs per week (weather permitting) now. One of these has to go at my age (62), and I am pretty sure it has to be the teaching.
Long way of getting around to saying how much I like this post. I "re-learned" some business principles, and also how to "ask" better questions (Bob Kovacs). Mike Smith's comment about "staying home" to be ready for the good ones, just got copied and printed to go on my bathroom mirror, and maybe my van.
I've heard the Home Depot comment before, he must have worked there once.Just curious, why the link to Lee Valley (other than the obvious).
I just love T-bevels; it's my favorite hand tool. The link is to my favorite brand of T-bevel. It's rust proof besides several other things. It often makes working with angles a breeze. I always keep one in my tool belt. It's kind of my trade mark. It also happens to be my middle initial.
<!----><!----> <!---->
I also often use my signature to provide links when answering questions. Having a default link keeps me from simultaneously posting in response to something like this, and providing a curious link to hometime.com at the same time.
<!----> <!---->
The T-bevel fits just right into a combination square holster. In this post I’ve set the link to a picture of that holster from Occidental Leather.
-T
Edited 2/28/2006 6:27 pm ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
I agree with you on the T-bevel. The master carpenter I apprenticed under treated it like a chalice. I have a collection of older ones somewhere.
Thanks to all for their input. After "jimkidd's" post, I thought the least I could do was highlight some of the advice that I found most helpful. I've ordered the recommended books myself (I was eyeing the Taunton book for some time already). I would've looked into the National Construction Estimator, but I had already ordered the 2006 Complete Construction Estimator from the Craftsman Book Company ( craftsmanbook.com). This comprehensive recommendation will be my contribution. The following is a summary of the previous 100+ posts:
Hazlett
“2 carpenters, or 2 carpenters and a helper framed, sided and roofed a standard 24x24, 4/12 garage every 1 1/2 days.â€
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JerraldHayes
<!----> <!---->
“Come up with a correctly loaded Billing Rate.â€<!----><!---->
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artworks:
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“Regions with different tastes . . . in acceptable quality makes a GREAT difference in what you are going to 'bid' in at.â€<!----><!---->
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BobKovacs
<!----> <!---->
[Calculating overhead:] “insurance . . . tools, a truck, etc., which cost money to buy, operate, maintain, and replace . . . 7.65% for FICA . . . you've chased this job, you've probably chased other jobs that you didn't get, and you've spend time estimating, invoicing, and generally "running your company" . . . conservatively . . . you'll lose 10% of the 2,000 hours to these activities, rain, and other non-productive time.â€<!----><!---->
atrident
<!----> <!---->
“Look for the latest "National Construction Estimator."<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
MikeSmith
“You have to get over the idea that you are a clever carpenter and work on the fact that you want to be a Contractor . . . If you are going to base your pricing on what you THINK someone else might charge, you are doomed to fail . . . You have to identify YOUR costs and figure out how much you need to mark up to make the income you need to justify being in business.â€
“I never charge by the SF. I always get paid to prepare a proposal, I define the scope of work, then I give them a fixed price. I get a deposit with the signed Proposal and they get on my schedule . . . You are looking for a labor only number, and a labor only number is a higher price for me than a complete labor & materials fixed price, since I have to recover more overhead & profit on the labor only.â€
“Well, it took me a long time to figure out that customers don't have a clue what you are supposed to charge. If they did, they wouldn't need us . . . Better to stay home and be ready for the good ones than to get bogged down in the bad ones.â€
migraine
“What about the "other guy." Does he mark up his materials for overhead and profit? You take a building, say $10,000 in materials, and leave out $2,500 in profit and overhead.â€
Hackinatit
“What if you get hurt and can't finish? You have a contract to fulfill, so YOU must hire someone to make good on the project. If you don't have enough profit in the job, you end up paying the sub more than you get from the job.†"Insult to injury."
Bowz
“The vast majority of people I have worked for would put price below trust!!!!â€<!----><!---->
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Links (JerraldHayes)
PILAO Worksheet-Post 30
Logically Thinking About Markup-Post 30
The Hidden Dangers of SF Estimating-Post 51
Books (JerraldHayes)
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<!---->"Running a Successful Construction Company"-Post 30<!---->
<!----><!----><!---->"How Much Should I Charge?: Making Money Doing What You Love"-Post 30<!---->-T
Connie -
I have a couple catalogs that I picked up from the local 84 Lumber. One was on houses another on barns/garages. Without getting into what I think of the particular store here, I can say that their design on some of the garages/barns looked pretty good. I have not seen full plans, don't know if they are good or bad. They sell plans or kits (pre-fabs). Might be worth a look, even if it's only for design ideas.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
There are plans services that just have garages, barns and like.Go a google on - garage building plans - and you will find more than you want.
I don't know where he got his plan. After this discussion, I don't want to ask him either. I'm hoping my extra low bid scared him off and he won't call me back. He was from out of town. I suppose he wanted a vacation spot. I got the plan via a PDF e-mail. Hard to tell where it came from.
Whenever I'm in Barns and Nobles, I see a whole lot of Creative Homeowner home plan books. They're often sold at home centers as well. Here's a link to one at the Creative Homeowner website. There's bound to be garages attached to some of these homes. I think you'll like their publishing format as well. Click on the link below.
http://www.creativehomeowner.com/index.php?pane=book&bookid=277027-T
This really was a great thread. One that im sure will be read for a long time to come. At least by me.
Whats being left one the table?
Thank you. one and all
T,
Welcome to Breaktime
SamT
Some good confrontation of the uneducated here. Of course, building that garage for $3,000.00 would have been a good education.
At least Journeyman was not like Johnny, the DIY builder who claimed he built his dad's home for $75,000.00 and could sell it for $250,000.00. He figured a builder could make 233% gross profit and called us crooks.
Journeyman seems to have humbled himself, Johnny quit (so he says) the forum with a signoff of bitterness.
Reminds me of the ad to teenagers:
Teens are you tired of parents telling you what to do.
TAKE ACTION NOW
move out / get a job / pay your own bills / cook your own food
wake yourself up / drive your own car / do your own laundry
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SPECIAL TIME WHILE YOU STILL KNOW IT ALL
Fabulous thread. Got in a little late on it. One overriding pricing philosophy that was drilled into us in the grinding tool manufacturing industry is that how much it costs you to produce an item has very little bearing on what you charge. The only relevant number is what the market will bear.In that industry, there's tremendous offshore pricing competition along with good product, similar to illegals doing good work in the construction industry.So if the market will only bear $XX and it costs you $XXX to produce something (materials, overhead, etc) then either you get your overhead down somehow or get out of that market.If the market is at $XX and it costs you $.0x to produce an item, then you charge $XX, not $.0x. Of course you do need to know how much it costs you to produce a garage, run trim in a whole house, etc. but in terms of using that as a bidding point, the pricing philosophy seems a bit different than what I mentioned above.Comments?
Edited 2/24/2006 7:08 am ET by jdarylh1
The only relevant number is what the market will bear.
Comments?
You are dead wrong.
OK not completely, but a lot closer to being wrong than right.
In your example of tooling, the pricing is based on a quantifiable commodity.
In my view, the building industry has many more non-quantifiable, value added elements. In my case as a remodeler, I show up on time, build trust with the client, and they are comfortable with me. Further down on the list is price. the vast majority of people I have worked for would put price below trust!!!! Not an unreasonable price, mind you, but price is far enough below trust to sometimes make double or triple the "going rate"
There is a saying I like to keep in mind; "It is not the market that sets the price it is the marketer who sets the price."
To me the "going rate" is like getting from point A to point B in a Yugo. I want to find the clients who want to go from point A to Point B in a Cadillac.
Bowz
Bowz,
Boy are you right about that... And how do I know? I learned the hard way. Took the lowest bid on a home addition (after doing some calculations to determine if the lowest bid was legitimate) and found myself having to become the general contractor to get a quality result. In the end the addition turned out OK, but only because of the time I spent every day driving the job. The experience will help me for my next one - choosing a contractor for a retirement home.
Nothing like real life experience (and pain) to leave a lasting impression.... I learned my lesson....
Terry
but only because of the time I spent every day driving the job.
Interesting. I can think of at least 2 jobs where I was higher, but because of the trust factor, and communication, I got the job. The homeowners didn't have to burn any vacation days to supervise.
Those vacation days were extremely valuable to the HOs. More so than the extra money that I charged.
Bowz
>In your example of tooling, the pricing is based on a quantifiable commodity.Not completely. In commodity priced wheels (generic wheels for extremely common situations), that's true. But very few US manufacturers can compete in that market any more. So they've been forced to make some changes. 1) Become far more efficient, therefore reducing overhead. 2) Compete in the value-added arena. 100% on-time delivery, 0% screwups, high levels of customer service, etc. So within that arena, there still is a "what the market will bear" price point and no matter how superior the value added items are, the market will not accept past that point.Sure, value-added marketing gets a higher price than commodity level marketing. A value-added business model has a bit of higher cost attached to it but not at a 1 to 1 ratio in terms of where you set the pricing. You can set it much higher based on the perceived value of the service, not based on how much it costs you to render that service.So for example, it doesn't cost any more in terms of overhead to do what you say you're going to do, to show up on time, to reduce your own screwups, to act well mannered, etc. But the perceived value of your service is higher and consequently you can charge more as you pointed out. You can charge up to what the market will bear for those value added services. The greater the perceived value, the more you can charge within reason. And your overhead costs have increased only fractionally in comparison to the increase in revenue.
But the perceived value of your service is higher and consequently you can charge more as you pointed out. You can charge up to what the market will bear for those value added services. The greater the perceived value, the more you can charge within reason.
Exactly.
But most carpenters turned contractors don't see this. Heck I didn't for a long time.
A slight point of disagreement would still be your "what the market will bear" phrase. I try not to look at "the market" as a whole. Each new customer, and situation, is an individual "market" by themselves.
As such one of my biggest mistakes has been to pigeonhole them into "what I think they will pay" or "what the market will bear" rather than looking at what other value I am delivering, how important is it to them, and what are my costs to produce it.
The point is that yes we need to be on time, do what we say, etc, but not just for the sake of getting the job at $25 an hour over another person at $25 an hour. Good service is a billable and valuable asset that we can and need to charge for. And the biggest shift is not in "the market", it is in our own minds.
Bowz
I think you are actually in agreement with jdarylh1 more than calling him dead wrong.
If you are getting work, then you are pricing where your market will bear!
You have decided your market is serving the Cadillac buyers, not the Yugo buyers. These are two different markets. The price of one does not equal the price of the other.
If there were no Cadillac buyers in your area, then, and only then, you would need to rethink what you are selling. Of course you would, as marketer, try to create the market for Cadillacs first!I agree that you do not need to sell Yugos when Cadillac sales are doing well, even if there are people also buying Yugos. Someone else can sell to them.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
After reading this post (a few times over) I decided to take the day off and reevaluate my estimating practices. You guys have saved me a fortune in future miscalculations and I certainly appreciate everyone's generosity. I've down loaded Jerrald's pages and the links Bob provided. I also ordered the books Jerrald recommends. If it only cost me a couple of billable days to vastly improve my business, I'd say that was money extremely well spent.Thanks again Best,James Kidd
Jimkidd, you're doing what I wish I had done when I was in my twenties! You will not regret it.
blue
Thats a neat thing to hear. A lot of advice goes out on this board and not much feed back comes back in. But what really makes this cool is the fact you are a contractor and benefitted. Good for you to have an open mind! DanT
Did you give him the info on where to send the monthly royalty payment?
Missed that idea. Good one! lol. DanT
Watch out, bubba, these are the Homeowners From Hades, parts I through V.
SamT
Yeah, but Future Man, if he goes ahead and listens to good solid advice, he will have the grandfather paradox no? And then the threads won't ever exist anymore,again, er..now...I mean sooner than when they were...ahh crap, now I'm confused ..LOL