I am in the process of removing the old cedar siding and all the window trim plus fascia boards on my house and redoing it all in HardiPlank and HardiTrim. I will tell you with 1/4 of the house done it looks great. But I have an issue I need some perspective on. My goal is no or very low maintainence. Last summer I rebuilt a three level deck in Trex, this summer its the siding and trim. Here is the issue. I have the original Peachtree Exterior doors and the door frames, as often happens, has rotted from the bottom up a good ways. Now, with all this concrete siding and Trex, I cant help but to think someone must make door trim and framing that is man made and resists rot and decay. My contractor is in contact with Peachtree so we can find out the cost of the replacements through them and Im on the trail to find alternitives. Any thoughts from you Pros?
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Replace them with a better quality door.
Just finished replacing 5 peachtree 10 year old units with new ones they supplied at no cost. For one, I wouldn't bet if you get new jambs they will even work since the replacement units varied in size from the originals. But then again the new ones varied in size along with only being close to square.
If you are willing to go the effort of fixing the old ones, save yourself time and agravation and replace them with a better quality unit. I will only supply and install Anderson.
Just my opinion.
Thanks but here is the stupid follow up question...Do Anderson Doors have frame and trim material that wont rot ? If they are wood, and Peachtree is wood, seems that we replace one brand with another that will do the same thing in 10 years.
Second stupid follow up question...as Door brands go, where does Peachtree rate vs Anderson or other options? Im not doing all this work to save money, Im wanting it done right and not have to do it again...would there be a better door than Anderson?
Anderson really does focus on keeping the water out. Peachtree is one or two steps below them and Pella is in about the same place, IMO. Hard to imagine somebody recommending Pella over Anderson for quality. I actaully like the Peachtree doors better than Pellas but both have poor jambs and Peachtree's hardware is bottom of the line and their warrantee service ain't worth writing home about. At least Pella trys. If we're looking for bottom of the barrel, Thermatru belongs down there someplace. I've got some happy Marvin customers. Only problems I've had with them is the insulated glass. Good hardware and tight fit and finish.
Overall on value and followup service?
Anderson
Tops on quality?
Marvin.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin's right!
I just made the Therma tru mistake on my house. It's a lot of money for not a lot of quality. Never again!
Ditto on the Kolbe windows. I put K-Kron finished ones in my house, like 'em lots.
On the subject of rotting door jambs, I'm curious about their installation. Any sort of an overhang protecting them?
And, a tip I've used to seal exterior end grain, such as the bottom of a jamb leg. Mix up some epoxy in a plastic cup, then stir in enough alcohol (I've used rubbing alcohol) to thin the epoxy so that it can be applied with a foam brush. Do that. Thanks to Jeff Jewitt for the idea.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
I've seen a couple of kicks against ThermaTru in this thread. I sell them as my primary exterior door unit and in fact was getting ready to order a SmoothStar for my own place. I pride myself on giving my customers the accurate pros & cons on the products I'm offering, not just blowing hype. What kind of problems have you guys had with T-Tru?
Al
I don't blow smoke about something like this.
>Jamb, threshold and head pieces cut and assenbled so as to gaurantee the jamb can not be square and plumb.
> Hinges with screws so askew that it looks like a drunk put them together on the assembly line. These hinges have the tabs flipped out to maintain definite alignment to the jamb to make installation foolproof. Guess what! fools learn new tricks every day.
> Clunky cheap looking fit and finish on glass doors compared to any other I've ever used.
> On the composite ones they advertise being so proud of that all other doors will go the way of dinosaurs, they warp inward at top and bottom. If they were to build them with three point hardware and put them in a square jamb, they might have a chance. I saw a cutaway sample at the doorknob hole, there is almost no wood to stabilize at that stile. All foam.
> They are more than happy to replace as often as I want to bear the labor and repainting cost, with more of the same crap. One we rehung three units into.
Ain't worth the aggravation to me. I'll never have another on my job..
Excellence is its own reward!
Wow!
Some of the flaws are things that can't be pinned on T-Tru, primarily assembly issues, like crooked screws. That's just sloppy work from whoever hung the door. As far as frames not going in square & plumb because of component inaccuracies, that's a new one on me. I know they require the use of their own thresholds but jambs are aftermarket, and can be made by any door part manufacturer. Fit & finish, I agree isn't up to snuff on their glass units but is much better on the flush glazed than the clamshell type. I'm really concerned about the warping problems though. I can't recall ever getting a warpage complaint on these units but that doesn't mean I won't get five tomorrow. I do like the wide variety of materials & styles they offer, prices are reasonable, and in my area turnaround on nearly all of their line is very fast. I like Marvin & Kolbe but they're kind of limited for styles. Is there a "general purpose" line of entry doors you like better? What do you spec for your jobs?
Tks,
Al
These were prehung doors from Therma tru so it's their assembly problems. If they sub out their component they are still responsible and it still reflects on them.
I use a lot of Marvins and some Andersons, a few Peachtrees or Pellas. The largest single type of exterior door for me is custom wood though. Mahogany, fir and pine. .
Excellence is its own reward!
ThermaTru doesn't prehang doors though, except for a few specialty types like patio units. Assembly of the unit is left to the millwork supplier that your lumber yard chooses. I can order my T-Tru from a division of Andersen (formerly Adam Wholesale), Huttig, Sanders, & one other I can't think of at the moment. I don't know who covers your neck of the woods. But they're the ones taking the slabs and putting them into jambs that have components, aside from the threshold, that THEY spec'd, not T-Tru. If I have a sloppy unit, I'm dragging my Huttig or whoever rep in here because his company is the one that sold the unit to me. There's no beef w/ T-Tru. The situation would be different if I got an Andersen unit because Andersen assembled the entire unit at their plant, boxed it up, & shipped it to me. Now if I've got a millwork supplier that can't get a door hung right, the brand slab doesn't matter any more. It shouldn't reflect on the slab but on the company that can't keep their door machines adjusted and operated correctly.
I'm with you on the wood doors. There's just nothing like wood. They're not perfect & have their own set of quirks but still I'd much rather sell, install, & own wood. It's taken a long time before I would even sell something other than wood, custom or otherwise. As far as Peachtree & Pella, their distribution here isn't good. Do you know anything about Pease?
Al
I was a door manufacturer insider, so I know. The window manufacturers (Andersen, K&K, Marvin, etc.) make what we called *patio* doors, and variations thereof. A patio door is one with a full *lite* of glass. It can be a single-panel, double, or triple, and may slide, or be hinged. The K&K I saw in the previous post would qualify as a patio door under this definition. Two *window manufacturer* exceptions are Peachtree and Weathershield, which make *entry* doors and patios. For the most part, patio doors carrying a big manufacturer's name are engineered, fabricated, and assembled at the manufacturer's plant. *Entry* doors are hinged units, used mostly at the front, service, garage service, and house-to-garage locations. Probably 95% or more of the *entry* units (i.e., a 6-panel door, maybe with sidelites, or a half-lite door) that arrive on jobsites are built in wholesale distributors' door shops, and probably consist of a *slab* (the door panel only) made by the manufacturer and bought by the distributor, then *components*, meaning everything else, such as jambs, sills, door lite inserts, hinges, weatherstrip, brickmold, etc. Those components may be sourced by the distributor from places far afield such as Chile, China, Mexico, and Taiwan. Is price a consideration? Probably. The slab manufacturers (Premdor, Peachtree, Stanley, ThermaTru, etc.) generally do not make a door with glass in it, per se. They instead make a door *blank* which has a rectangular through-hole routed out of it in the distributor's door shop, and a component, a door lite insert, is installed. If your entry door is badly put together, blame the distributor that built it, not the slab manufacturer. If your hinged patio door has steel or fiberglass panels, wood frame parts, and again, has fit and finish problems, blame not the slab manufacturer, but the assembly plant, the wholesale distributor. If your entry unit's door slab warps or *thermally deflects* (warps inward at top and bottom when sunshine heats up the exterior) then blame the manufacturer. Steel-faced doors are the most rigid, in all conditions, in my opinion, if you don't mind their postmodern look. If you want a wood exterior door, entry or patio, then build a porch, portico, carport, or some other architectural feature to shield it from the rain and sun, otherwise suffer the consequences. If a big nor'easter comes slamming in during the night, that 3 a.m. phone call might be your last client. The big window outfits have addressed these problems by engineering their patio doors, which are mostly installed without those protecting architectural elements, with features that combat moisture, wind, and sunshine. Look for and use patio units with non-wood threshold, frame, and trim parts. If going hinged, insist on triple-point locks. For weatherstripping of hinged units, the neutral-pressure-chamber feature of Andersen's wind-hooded weatherstripping will probably go further to keep out wind-driven rain than others. Look for high-quality cladding and finish on the stiles and rails of the door panels themselves. Hinges that work like the euro cabinet hinges, with screws that let you adjust up-down, and side-to-side, are a wonderful feature, and will work for you provided you know how to make the tweaks. If you are a purist, and must have true divided lites, i.e. through muntins with individual glass pieces, then by all means be a purist. But if you want the assembly that will perform, and keep your home phone (read *callback*) from ringing, then look for the simulated divided lite config, described in the earlier post. Lastly, if you want low cost, but absolutely, absolutely, want the protection from door, frame and sill rot, get yourself a steel door unit that is made with a slab that has a synthetic bottom rail, door frames and brickmold that have their bottommost finger joints made of the same type material, and a threshold that is free of wood, even the inner, hidden, part. Look at the bottom side. And by all means, put some kind of a pan flash assembly underneath, like *JamSillGuard*, when installing. One more thing. If you have your framing sub install your exterior doors, and he pops 'em in like lightning, affixing them in place by spiking them through the brickmold, then get all his digits, his home phone, girlfriend's, the bar where he stops for a beer, his email, cell number, etc., and see that he, not you, gets the door callbacks.
Gene, thanks. With a little fleshing out, this could be a good article for the magazine.
Write to Andy with it.
I wonder why my lumberyard never filled me in on all this when I was doing all the complaining? This at least helps me understand.
I get good jambs and fits with Anderson and Marvin. Peachtree and Pella are also rans. Therma tru sucks. Maybe they should choose their distruibutors more carefully. Most of these are swing doors on hinges.
I agree that any manmade door material/composite exterior door should always have a three point lock system. The fact is still true that a Therma tru has almost no wood sold in the style to reinforce it. When you have a 2-3/8" backset for the knob there is about 3/8" of wood behind it. That is the least of any I've seen and I'm sure it is the reason, along with no 3pt lock, that they warp inward time after time.
I love the wood ones but have to admit that most of them are installed in protected locations. I think the finer houses have that in the design. A guest should not have to stand under the rain, in a wind, any more than a fine door should..
Excellence is its own reward!
And just to keep your interest, here's how the door biz goes on the left coast. In the big tracts in Phoenix, Las Vegas, and all over California, framing subs do the framing, then trim subs come in and install door frames, heads and jambs only, no sill, and no weatherstrip. The wood parts are in pieces before installation. The door frames come early and preceed the doors so that the exterior siding, usually stucco, and interior drywall work can proceed. Housebuilding progress ensues, and way late in the game, near job's end, door installers hang slabs to the frames, then leave. A specialty sub comes last and installs thresholds, hardware, and weatherstrips the door. Prehung door units, as we know them east of, say, Nebraska, are seldom seen. I honestly think the whole concept of parsed division of labor started in the California aircraft factories during WWII, then progressed into home building as the production builder tract business developed.
Keep building chapters for this article, Gene. I like it!
I don't know if you know me. I do mostly remodeling so we stay flexible enough to do it any way that works best for that job..
Excellence is its own reward!
Don't drill through the dead bolt strike on a thema-true you'll come out that cheesey Ogee mldg next to the side-lite.
If they bought a tt what do they care the deadbolt throws all the way, just give it a kick and you're in.
Edited 10/21/2002 11:28:46 PM ET by GEOB21
hey, thanks - now that was informative.
And Piffin - I wasn't implying that you had labor issues if you took it as such. Just stating that here, it's a factor.
In brighter news, Lincoln, NE, is the new glowing jewel in the McDonald's crown. We have supposedly the first "3 in 1" Mickey D's in the world. Complete with bakery and ice cream "shoppe". Aint we stellar.
I kinda figured that but I was feeling a little cantankerous the other day from a different thread so I'm sorry if I came on with a load..
Excellence is its own reward!
As others have said, that was a very informative post.
If you know quite a bit about the idustry, how about doing some posts on it? Like the "Board Meeting" post from a while back.
In particular, I'd like to know how to buy 6 panel pine doors without glue spots on them............People get real comfortable with their features. Nobody gets comfortable with their hair. Hair trauma. It's the universal thing. [Jamie Lee Curtis]
HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE GLUE SPOTS???? I HAVE BEEN IN THE MILLWORK BUSINESS FOR 20+ AND HAVE NEVER HAD THAT PROBLEM....
Winstal, why don't you lose the caps and all the extra punctuation marks. I can hear you and I'm all the way in Ohio. This is a discussion. Relax. Take a load off.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE GLUE SPOTS????"
Sorry for not answering sooner - I overlooked your post for a few days by mistake.
The reason I brought up glue spots is that I had them on a dozen doors that I bought last year. I sanded them a bit before finishing them, but couldn't see the glue spots until the stain was applied.
I complained to the lumberyard I got them from, and they said they got them all the time that way. I complained to their supplier (Even emailed them pictures) and got no response at all.
I asked other supliers, and they said the glue spots were common on imported doors.
I supposed you could argue that I don't know for certain that they're glue spots. But I believe that's what they based on past experiences with woodworking. The spots just didn't absorb the stain like the rest of the doors. Persian Proverb: Trust in God, but tie your camel.
Piffin, most of the problems you describe apply to my TT door,(it sounds like you have been to my house). Al was right that my door assembly came for a millwork shop, I contacted them and made a stink about the poor quality. Delmarva Door and Sash company quickly offered a replacement/refund, for several reasons I wasn't in the position to return the unit or delay installation, (my problems not their's) we settled for a partial refund of the purchase price. By the way, I also contacted Therma Tru directly and they weren't interested!
Every time I walk past this door my gut churns a little, although I am slowly getting past it. My wife thinks it's beautiful cause I stained it a pretty color, and is opens and closes well. I think it looks like poop! So I'll keep my mouth shut for a while, but if and when it fails no more Therma Tru for me.
Little did I know when I posted the original question,just what would come from this. I appreciate the candor and the development of the feedback. I can summarrize what I have seen and learned:
the sources of information that we have on door construction, mounting and attention to key details is poor at best. Even the good websites leave a lot to be sesired.
Quality and construction as well as materials are variable within a brand as well as across the brands available. No wonder we have people who swear by a brand and another who deplore its use...there is no construction standard if they are all mounted and pre hung by multiple businesses with differing quality control. This explains why if you email or call a manufacturers home office, they never answer your question...thay always refer you to a local person...thats cause the manufacturere really has no idea what the local outfit did with their product?
Its important to install the door properly or none will work and we all deal with different issues regarding exposure, rough in quality, etc. But the bottom line is that great installation of a poor door wont fix what is junk to begin with.
Manufacturers need to wake up to the needs of the marketplace. With products like Trex for Decks and hardiPlank and Hardi Trim being rapidly adopted, to continue to use finger jointed softwoods for door parts that get exposure to the elements and require maintainence, someone has a golden opportunity to make the whole prehung door out of great new material, in one plant, and control their quality.
Just so you know, Andersen is the decision my contractor and I made. At least they have people who will answer a question. Wine is God's way of capturing the sun.
I sure am glad I read your post. Just took delivery of my therma -tru the other day. The door itself looks to sound, it s a woodgrain fiberglass w/ decorative glass. After reading your post and others in this thread I got out the tape measure and framing square. Laying the square across the top jamb, the jamb on the latch side is out 1/4" in 2 ft. The reveal at the top of the door is a strong 5/16" on latch side and less than 3/16" on hinge side. Squaring the frame will make it worse. I'm no pro, just a homeowner w/ skills, but that seems unacceptable to me ( especially at nearly 1 thousand bucks). Its interesting to note that these pre-hungs aren't assembled at the factory, but by various millwork companies, as confirmed by the sticker proudly displayed on my door. This baby's getting returned. Lots to learn here.
Until installed, what it varies in two feet doesn't mean so much. You need to use diagonals to check it in your case. Also measure the distance between left and right jambs at top and at bottom. I typically found that the threshold openning at bottom was as much as 3/16" longer than the head openning at top. That makes it impossible to install it square.
I understand everything everybody has said about assembly factories and manufacturing plants being different, but I can't understand why this only happens with TT doors..
Excellence is its own reward!
There's nothing I hate more than not being able to figure something out. I measured the top & bottom spreads on about a dozen T-Tru's I have in stock & they were all exactly the same. But I also saw something missing on each unit. There is what they call an corner seal pad that's an optional part during assembly. It's a foam block that is partly inserted into each end of the sill before the sides are fastened. When the screws holding the sides are tightened, they compress & form the seal they're designed to serve as. But the jambs do wind up getting spread an additional about 1/8". In their assembly handbook, they say when the blocks are used to reduce the sill length to offset it. I've got a hunch that's a step that gets frequently missed.
I know you mentioned other issues with the brand that are more subjective. Part of my job of selling is identifying objections & finding solutions. Sometimes people just plain & simple don't like a product / brand & I absolutely understand that. I don't peddle every item that someone presents to me either. But I certainly appreciate the observations you & others have given on T-Tru. Their factory guy is in here a couple of times per year & I think I've got a couple of questions for him!
Al
That's good. If someone can get their ears and if they are interested in hearing, then a whole lot of homeowners will eventually be made happier. Company stock owners too. It's inconceivable to me that quality and perceived lack of quality issues like this won't eventually show up in the bottom line..
Excellence is its own reward!
ONE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT T/T DOORS ARE MADE BY T/T !!!! THE JAMBS AND SILLS AND OTHER COMPONENTS ARE NOT !!! THIS MEANS THAT THE "FABRICATER" OR MILLWORK WHOLESALER IS LEFT TO PURCHASE COMPONENTS FROM ANY ONE THEY WANT. MOST MILLWORK JOBBERS WILL SHOP THIS AND GO WITH THE BEST PRICE. I DOUBT THAT MOST SHOP SUPERS GET THE 'OL TAPE OUT AND SPEC THERE SHIPMENTS. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY SWICH SOURCES.
Winstall, I've already had this explained to me a couple times above by sombody who wasn't YELLING
The thing that puzzles me is that I can get more than one kind of door from the same wholesaler/distributor and only have this assembly problem with TTs. I know how easay it is to wrtite a distribution conbtract that says if you want to sell my doors and make money off them, you will assemble them according _______specifications or stand in the unemployment line (or whatever line jobbers go to when they lose a contract)
Now tell me if you can, what is your issue with Boss. I've recieved a few six panel pine doors with glue sealing the grain. Not enough to lose sleep over, but it happens. I'd actually rather have to sand a little if staining (which I do anyway) than to have the door fall apart from too little. I had to repair a cabinet door from Mills Pride the other day.... well that's another subject. Anyway, If I see it occasionally and Boss sees enough to inquire about solutions, I guess it is an industry problem that maybe could see improvement.
You attitude that it doesn't ore can't happen because you have never seen it in twenty years is very similar to the factory reps I talked to from TT who are in denial that they had a problem. Almost like a politician saying that there is no problem with social security. Tell us another one..
Excellence is its own reward!
Good reply Piff . I get pizzed when I here "your the only one that this has happened too" . Or "it must be somthing you did wrong" .
I hav e a tt french unit with one fixed and one swinging whisle. The door itself is warped just enough that it will not seal at the top corner unless I stand there and hold it or mabe prop a 2x again it. It is a metal unit with plastic window trim. I also have a Peachtree with side lites that has the same problem though not as severe.
Don
Yeah, all those patio doors really need three point hardware..
Excellence is its own reward!
On what part of the door do you seem to have the glue? By the way... Chill out.... I'm only trying to help and share my experience's..... We do not stain much in this market.... therefor the exposure to the glue problem is limited. There just are not that many pine/ poplar/ or other solid wood doors used in Louisville. Are you seeing spots or are they larger areas? If it is spotty and over a larger area, there is a good chance that the door may hve been exposed to rain. This will raise the grain where the rain hit the door and in many cases cause the stain to appear much lighter than the color on the rest of the door. The other chance is that many of the wholesalers keep there doors on racks in un-heated facilities. In the winter months, the metal roof panels will frost up over night...... and thaw in the morning as the sun rises. Then, we have a many little water droplets falling from the roof on guess what? sound silly? maybe.... but I have been through it..... remember I am only sharing some experiences..... I do not claim to have all the answers...
OK, Dude.
More rational respomnse without the yelling - I'm chilled.
I also know the difference between water spots and glue sealing grain. I sand the whole surface to 220 before staining. You get to know the wood pretty well. Its usually a small dipple near the joint of stile and rail that a sharp scraper followed by the 220 can take care of. I never lose any sleep over it and most of our doors are painted, not stained but I was witnessing that it does happen, in opposition to your statement which came across as a challenge because you reported never hearing of it.
Now you've heard..
Excellence is its own reward!
When I left the company in '00, Therma-Tru did not have any distributors in the northeast that bought and prehung a competing non-wood door in their shops. By that I mean that steel doors and fiberglass doors assembled by Huttig, Brosco, Delmarva, Sanders, Harvey, Reeb, and Andersen/Adams would have been T-T and none other. Distribution deals may have changed, but back then, the only other "brand" of door one might have gotten as made by one of those guys would have been a wood door . . . Morgan, Simpson, and others. I would support a beef against T-T if, say, Brosco wood entry doors were consistently of good quality while T-T doors built by Brosco were consistently bad. In general (and this statement was not true all across the country) Therma-Tru was the supplier of the wholesaler's sills, hinges, weatherstrip, and door lites used in the assembly of Therma-Tru units. Everybody bought their wood directly. Unequal top and bottom margins usually result from frame heads (wood supplier) or sills (Therma-Tru) being not true to length spec. Here is the spec they should be living to: nominal door width + 5/32" +/- 1/32" is jamb opening width. Thus, a 3/0 T-T door should have its frame opening measure 36-1/8" min, 36-3/16" max, top and bottom. I agree with the remark about the foam gaskets between sill and jamb, and what they might contribute to opening "spread."
Thanks for helping further my education but now I think I might be more confused. Somebody above said that the assembling distributors could buy jamb pieces from anybody anywhere at lowest bid cost. Now you are telling me from experience that all these jamb units are from TT?
Is somebody wrong or am I missing something? .
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm sorry I was not more clear. When I said, "everyone bought their wood directly," I meant that the wholesalers bought their frame parts . . . jambs, heads, brickmold, mullions and other wood items not from Therma-Tru but from wood "remanufacturers." Typically, when needing a few more truckloads of parts, a buyer will solicit more than one quote, and usually hand the biz to the low bidder.
Thanks Piffin. Icalmed down alittle after talking to a local builder friend here and reading your post. The diagonals are out a bit which should fix the reveal at the top of the door. The opening measures 36 1/8" top and bottom. Take care.
Hey Craw,
you said "The reveal at the top of the door is a strong 5/16" on latch side and less than 3/16" on the hinge side."
My door is similar, a strong 5/16 on the latch side, maybe a 1/16 on the hinge side, the head jam is about 1/16 shorter than the threshold as measured from the inside.
Where are you from? Maybe we have the same millwork shop in common.I live in Delaware, and purchased the door from Lowe's.
If your not comfortable bashing millwork shop's here, e-mail me.
snerdball@yahoo.
These weekend warrior lessons can be tuff sometimes
The reveal can ofteen be greater on the latch side than on the hinge side with any of these type doors. The trouble comes when it is say 1/8" at top and 5/16 at bottom with hinge side all 1/8".
I don't consider any of this to be shop bashing. They put product out for all the world to see and use, knowing that people talk. I'm just stating facts.
I have twice mentioned these problems with the reps at trade shows and home shows. The reaction I get is "HUH? I never heard of that happeniong. Call the orfice and talk to them about it. Here's the number...."
They are in complete denial. For instance with the composite door they replced three times, they still won't acknowledge they have a defective product. It's just suposed to be a one of a kind fluke!
Give me a break.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/24/2002 12:51:11 PM ET by piffin
Piffin,
Is the larger gap on the latch side to make up for not putting a 2* or 3* bevel on the door? Maybe need more room to open a 1 3/4 thick door?
I hear you on the poor quality/denial thing. I'm probably the worst guy in the world to deal with, I'm machinist by trade, moved into inspection when all the machine work was outsource,(we deal with crappy vendors all the time) and I build furniture as a hobby/part time income.
Little crap drives me nuts!!
By the way, I really like reading your posts, you understand that attention to detail is more than half the battle
After checking diagonals I believe my door is ok. Millwork co. is DSD (Delmarva sash and door?) out of Maryland. Good luck with yours.
I don't use them much out of personal preference, but my experience comes from being on contract as the 11 month customer satisfaction punch list guy for a couple of local builders, and they both use TT exclusively. They look ok, but I see a lot of leaky doors. Water coming in between the weatherstrip and the bottom of the door, and its not an issue of turning screws. You can crank the strip so high that the door is hard to open and still water. I DK that this is exclusive to TT though; if you dont put a storm on, when you get rain and 50kt winds, I suspect a lot of doors will let water in. Only a couple of times have I seen manufacturing defects that were readily noticable (cracked molding, cladding coming loose). But most of the window and door stuff I deal with would be moot if these guys had someone competent doing the install in the first place. But, deaf ears. You pay thirty bucks for someone to hang a door, you deserve what you get.
Next time you see one of those leaky TTs measure the length of the head vs. the threshold.
I'll bet ten to one that you find most of the bottoms of the opennings to be 3/16s wider than at the head. Occasionally one leg will be an eighth longer than the other.
My people hanging these are the same ones making custom doors and installing them. They know doors. It ain't the labor on site here..
Excellence is its own reward!
I have ThermaTru CS (Construction Series) doors on my house (built in 2000, I'm second owner). This is an all-foam door in a flimsy frame. I want to put in a deadbolt, but there's no blocking for a deadbolt, so it wouldn't be worth much. I can't decide whether to hang a new door (maybe the T-Tru "premium" steel), swap the whole assembly (not cheap, and it's practically a new house), or forget the whole thing.
Given what I've seen so far, I wouldn't buy ThermaTru if I had the choice.
Pete
I was starting to feel a little lonely there for a minute.
;<).
Excellence is its own reward!
Their Construction Series is an el cheapo 25ga unit & designed specifically for purchasers who aren't concerned with features, only price. I didn't know the lock block wouldn't cover a deadbolt, only the lockset. I looked through their tech books & as far as I can see, you're correct. As you go up in price / quality in T-Tru, you eventually get to a full length piece of LVL instead of just a simple block. But you've got to spend more to get more. You said the jamb you have is flimsy. Is that because the installtion needs to be improved, ie square & plumb, proper fastening, shims, etc? If so, fix that but I would not put any steel door back in, from any maker. I would give a hard look at a T-Tru SmoothStar, which is a smooth (no fake grain) fiberglass door. It paints well, can't be dented, is more rigid, & can't rust. If you really want to upgrade the entire unit, ie locking system, cladding, etc., look to some of the other brands that have been mentioned throughout this thread. The moral of the story, addressed not to you but to whomever built your house, is if you want better, you've got to pay for it. A $700 door is going to install. look, act, & feel like one. The same is true with the $125 one.
Al
The jamb is bowed away from the knob, so there's very little to catch. The jamb has very little meat to it. This door has sidelights, so shimming it isn't an option. I think I could make a deadbolt passably secure with a long strike. Just gotta make sure I don't put the screws through the glass!
Thanks for the suggestion about smoothstar. I'll take a look at it. I'm not enthusiastic about hanging a new door, in that I don't do it every day (homeowner, not a pro) but that seems like the best approach.
Pete
The worst part of a therma-tru is the threshold. They use a board underneath then cut a channel in bare wood to supposedly lead water out from the adj. threshold. The cavity is not sealed, and water runs out holds drilled thru for screws. The hardware is not plated or greased and in a short time the adj. screws will not turn. A kindergartner could have engineered it better. It will rot out quickly and then your house!
So whose adjustable sill do you think is good?
never used anderson just andersen along with others but water is your problem either redo the stoop(jersey talk) or frame a roof
If you are just needing to replace the brickmold/ jam they make plastic brickmold and jams these work well and won't rot if you are going to replace the doors I'd look into fiberglass or steel but the jams themselves are still made of wood.
ANDYSZ2
I saw something on Michael Holligan that was made to patch the common problem of rot at the bottom of the jamb. It was a recycled plastic part that was about a foot long and shaped like a standard door frame. Saw off the rotted section and replace it with the plastic part.
I think the best remedy for your situation is to wrap the new wood door frame with aluminum or use a metal frame. Unfortunately the wood nowadays is so poor quality and fingerjointed that you may see the same problem again.
There are manufacturers who provide all clad units in one fashion or another. I hate to say it, but Pella comes to mind. Kolbe has a finish they factory apply (and I haven't used it yet, just know it exists) that supposedly provides the same level of impenetrability. K-Kron or something like that. If you're going to remortgage the place for a few doors, I'd look at the Kolbe & Kolbe first.
I know that Peachtree makes a fiberglass unit, as I purchased one recently. Though now saying this, I'm not sure that the _frame_ is fiberglass...
-TJ
The Kolbe K-Kron finish is top notch... we have installed probably a hundred K-Kron units, and never a problem. But for the cat's meow, check out Kolbe's Ultra series. They use heavy extruded aluminum casings and sills, painted with a fluoropolymer paint that has a 30 year warranty. They weigh a ton and they ain't cheap, but they are very nice.
Mike really likes Kolbe too. They do make doors? do they? .
Excellence is its own reward!
They make really, really, nice doors. I'll post a pic of one later today after I get back from the job site. One of the things I really like is that they have adjustable heavy duty hinges as a standard. Sounds dumb, but it really makes life a lot easier.
You've probably already done this, http://www.kolbe-kolbe.com/, I've never seen these doors myself. Personally, I like steel doors, strong and light. I've run into alot of problems with attached sidelights in all manner of doors and would recommend that they be installed seperately. Also I would like to point out that a properly stored and installed door is a dream to set and trim. Most of the problems I have run into have involved doors with windows that have racked (a door frame that is no longer square) and have been installed by framers as is.
sometimes board sometimes knot
Right, It's that personal thing. I want to run myhand downthe door, study it for inconsistencies, open and close it. That's why shows are good. I get so much junk mail from manufacturers that make ALL doors and windows seem the be THE best on earth. Hearing so many recommend Kolbe here is one of the things that makes this site valuable. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Here you go... I know you can't tell much from a picture, but take my word for it, this is a NICE door. It has Kolbe's 3-1/2 profile casing (made out of extruded aluminum), aluminum clad outside, 7/8" insulated Lo-E glass, interior pre-primed with polyurea primer, blah, blah blah. I also included a better picture of one of their Ultra series windows (it goes with the door).
Thank you, That trim does look impressive! Are the muntins authentic or pasties?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, they are what Kolbe calls Simulite... it's an aluminum grid adhered to the outside, and a wood grid adhered to the inside, with spacers in the glass to make it look like TDL insulated glass... so I guess the answer is that they are fake, but personally you can't tell they are fake without very careful inspection... they look for all the world inside and out like TDL. Most of my customers have older houses and want some level of authenticity...many have their doubts until I show them the product...then they almost always go for it. And frankly, having aluminum on the outside certainly removes one area of likely water damage.
HI,
HERE IN SYRACUSE NY WE GET A LOT OF ROTTED TRIM ON EXTERIORS WINDOWS AND DOORS.THERE IS A PRODUCT CALLED NEVERROT SOLD AT HOME CENTERS.THEY SELL BRICKMOLD,PANELMOLD,1X ETC.IT COMES WHITE IN COLOR AND CAN BE PAINTED.HOPED I WAS SOME HELP TO YOU.
I WOULD BUY A NEW PEACHTREE FRAME ONLY......... TRANSFER THE DOOR TO THE NEW FRAME........ AND HAVE IT "WRAPPED" IN ALUMINUM COIL STOCK TO MATCH YOUR EXTERIOR COLOR SCHEME. IT WILL NEVER ROT OR NEED PAINTING.....
That's not bad advice
but
we'd have heard you even if you DIDN'T SHOUT!!!!!!!!!!.
Excellence is its own reward!