Failed Electrical Inspection – Questions
Failed rough electrical inspection today on our forever garage project. I’ll do what the inspector wants, but am puzzled by some of it, and just want to understand why. So here goes.
This is a detached SIP building with electrical chases running vertical and horizontal in the foam. Chases are cut one inch from back of OSB skin, so 1 7/16 to surface. Inspector tells me that it doesn’t meet required 1 1/4″ minimum from edge of hole to edge of “framing” (meaning the 2×6 perimeter). So I need to put nail plates wherever wiring intersects framing. No biggie except I was just going to paint the OSB, so there will be exposed nail plates here and there.
My thought is that since the OSB skins are integral to the structure that it would indeed meet the minimum 1 1/4″, as they would be considered “framing”. Without the OSB there would be no structure. Am I off base here?
Another surprise on the grounding system. There’s an Ufer ground in footing. I also installed a ground rod just outside footing. So ground comes off panel, continuously through clamp on Ufer and then to driven rod. Told me to cut wire to rod and leave Ufer only. Indicated the grounding devices are too close together, must be 6 feet apart and it’s not needed anyway. Can one overground? What would be the potential problem?
And yet another puzzle on the panel wiring. On the 240 circuits where I’m using the romex white wire as a hot, a black taped end at breaker is not acceptable. Must be black from where it exits cable sheating to breaker. Shrink wrap, tape, paint, no white visible. If it’s code, (2005 NEC) I’ll do it, but what on earth for? If some future work were done, wouldn’t it be obvious enough with the end black taped and the fact that it’s connected to breaker and not the neutral buss? I don’t get it.
And last but not least, I wired bathroom receptacles (toilet and sink only) in series with mechanical room on a GFCI breaker. Lights and fan on another lighting circuit. Evidently, all baths have to have dedicated circuit which serves all loads within the room. In this case fan and light upstream of GFIC recep and then daisy chain the others in bathroom. What would be the possible downside to my original arrangement?
Your thoughts?
Everything will be okay in the end. If it’s not okay, it’s not the end.
Replies
Downside?=failed inspection.
Actually don't know enough to comment, but you left yourself open!>G<
Downside?=failed inspection.
How right you are! Guess I did leave the door open...needed a laugh anyway.
Guy softened a little as he saw me actually writing down what he wanted to see next time. I'm thinking they come into homeowner-done wiring projects loaded for bear. Homeowner can pull permits and do work on their own house here. Electrician required for all else.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I know Bill will be along, whoops never mind, he has you covered!
ah you got caught by the brother in law, cant get a job at wally world inspector.
I think he was wrong on the SIPs and the ground, but what you gonna do? (Perhaps the SIP manufacturer has some sort of code documentation you could show him.)
Can't say on the wire tagging. And they keep changing the rules on bathrooms.
Sounds like he needed to nail you on a couple of things just to show that you weren't a "real" electrical contractor.
But to misquote the old joke, arguing with the inspector is like wrestling a pig in mud - after a while, you realize the pig likes it.
Just be glad that he didn't come up with something that'll take thousands of $$$ or hours to correct.
There is a little truth in some of this, but it is nitpicking without any real improvement.
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at
each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding
electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the
grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and
used."
(3) is the ufer and (5) is ground rod. So if you have them use them.
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation
(B) Electrode Spacing Where more than one of the electrodes of the type specified in
250.52(A)(5) or (A)(6) are used, each electrode of one grounding system (including that
used for air terminals) shall not be less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other electrode of
another grounding system. Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded
together shall be considered a single grounding electrode system.
The ground rod is not needed, but if it is there it should be used.
Now there is some logic to what he is saying, but he is misapplying it.
250.56 Resistance of Rod, Pipe, and Plate Electrodes
A single electrode consisting of a rod, pipe, or plate that does not have a resistance to
ground of 25 ohms or less shall be augmented by one additional electrode of any of the
types specified by 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7). Where multiple rod, pipe, or plate
electrodes are installed to meet the requirements of this section, they shall not be less than
1.8 m (6 ft) apart.
In this case the ground rod is useless (unless you want to perform the resistance test and it passes). So a single ground rod can't an electrode unless there are two and the ufer can't be the 2nd one as it is too close.
But it does not hurt to have the ground rod.
This probably best covers the SIP.
300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage
(E) Cables and Raceways Installed in Shallow Grooves Cable- or raceway-type wiring
methods installed in a groove, to be covered by wallboard, siding, paneling, carpeting, or
similar finish, shall be protected by 1.6 mm ( 1/ 16 in.) thick steel plate, sleeve, or
equivalent or by not less than 32-mm (1 1/ 4-in.) free space for the full length of the
groove in which the cable or raceway is installed.
Exception No. 1: Steel plates, sleeves, or the equivalent shall not be required to protect
rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or electrical
metallic tubing.
Exception No. 2: A listed and marked steel plate less than 1.6 mm ( 1/ 16 in.) thick that
provides equal or better protection against nail or screw penetration shall be permitted.
Now as I read it that does say 1 1/4 for the whole slot and not from the surface. But really this section is for material where the wire is in a slot and later a material is covered over it.
The other section is.
"(A) Cables and Raceways Through Wood Members
(1) Bored Holes In both exposed and concealed locations, where a cable- or racewaytype
wiring method is installed through bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members,
holes shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not less than 32 mm (1 1/ 4 in.) from
the nearest edge of the wood member. Where this distance cannot be maintained, the
cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by screws or nails by a steel plate or
bushing, at least 1.6 mm ( 1/ 16 in.) thick, and of appropriate length and width installed to"
Not the sip is an assembly and not a wood menber. But if the whole assembly was treated as a wood member the hole would be more than 1 1/4 from the nearest edge of the WOOD MEMBER which is the plywood surface. As you describe it instead of foam and plywood it was a solid block of wood it would be OK. He is treating it as if the whole was through the foam and then there was a separate "finished" layer that plywood.
In my mind it CLEARLY meets the intent of the code. But the way the code is written it is not covered in a clear manor. Hopefully the SIP manufacture has some documenation that covers this.
You are both wrong on the bathroom.
First, under the code, a bathroom includes a basin, a toilet and/or a tub or shower. So this counts.
Now a bathroom in a DEWELING requires a 20 amp circuit for the receptacles in the bathroom. It can also serve other bathrooms receptacles. If the circuit only serves that one bathroom it can also be used for lights and fans in that bathroom. But the lights and fan don't have to be on that circuit.
Now for a none-deweling you don't need the receptacle or receptacle circuit.
Now you aren't going to be using a hair dryer or curling iron in that bathroom. That is why the code is writen that way.
But I would not try to argue that it is not a deweling as it might bring up other issues such as if romex is allowed.
310.12 Conductor Identification
"C) Ungrounded Conductors Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded
conductors, whether used as a single conductor or in multiconductor cables, shall be
finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors.
Distinguishing markings shall not conflict in any manner with the surface markings
required by 310.11(B)(1). Branch-circuit ungrounded conductors shall be identified in
accordance with 210.5(C). Feeders shall be identified in accordance with 215.12.
Exception: Conductor identification shall be permitted in accordance with 200.7.
This is from the Handbook. It is not code, but rather background or explanitory information.
"Ungrounded conductors with white or gray insulation are permitted if the conductors
are permanently reidentified at termination points and if the conductor is visible and
accessible. The normal methods of reidentification include colored tape, tagging, or
paint. Other applications where white conductors are permitted include flexible cords
and circuits less than 50 volts. A white conductor used in single-pole, 3-way and 4-way
switch loops also requires reidentification (a color other than white, gray, or green) if it
is used as an ungrounded conductor. See 200.7(C)(2) for exact details about this
required reidentification."
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White
Stripes
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has
three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts
or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to
indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means
at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and
accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other
It only says that the TERMINATION needs to be reidentified. And the handbook says that one method is a tag.
In terms of danger or usability all of these are nitpicking.
I the worst he should have said "I like to see things like this ..." and make some suggestions. Might tell you to change the bathroom, but sign off with the promise that you will change that.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the in depth reply, Bill, that sheds a lot of light. The nail plates grumped me, but as I was reading your response, it occured to me that any 1/16 steel is probably OK, right? So some pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers might be magically delicious. Anybody recognize that line?
I'll call the SIPs folks Monday to see if they can help, but I'm not gonna sweat it either way. Fewer waves is better on this project...it pushes the limits and some people's buttons, it seems.
The wire IDing is my biggest gripe, the panel's wired nice and neat and it means I've gotta undo a lot of that to rectify...9 circuits.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
The problem I see is the nail plates should have been under the OSB if I understand the situation. They are to prevent you from hitting the wire while you are putting up the sheathing or wall board.
Yep, sort of a ridiculous conundrum, isn't it? If I were of a mind, I could probably prevail on this, it's just not a battle I'm feeling like fighting right now, but we'll see.
Here's something odd. Inspector opined that SIPs is a offbeat throwback to the seventies. I told him that indeed nationwide it's most likely on the rise in popularity. He'd looked at exactly one other SIP project in his career, so in his eyes, it might well be some freak.
Something must drawn me to offbeat, I seem to go there a lot!
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
There is no sheathing to put on.I don't know if you are familar with the products, SIP's. Sturtural Insulated panels.It is a sheet of foam with with osb (typically) bonded to both side to form a sandwich.http://www.enercept.com/about_enercept_sips/frequently_asked_questionsThere are various ways to put wiring in those, but one is that they cut channels in before making. Then you can cut out boxes where needed wherever this is a channel.Some have both horizontal and veritcal channels IIRC.So there is no separate sheathing to be installed. I think that it would cause a number of problems, including structual, if they tried to install metal plates between the sheathing and the foam..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You are right, I have never worked with SIP. I thought the OSB was sheathing attached to the SIP.
About 1/2 down the page they show how to do wiring.http://sipbuilding.wordpress.com/.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, I've got nothing to contribute here, other than to say that that's a stunningly thorough and great reply.
Just sayin'.
Forrest
He's wrong on the grounds and he's definitely wrong on the cover plates.
I think he knows the letter of the law, but doesn't understand the principle, and therefore doesn't know where to apply it word for word.
These types of guys can be extremely frustrating to deal with, especially on a larger project.
FWIW, I think the idea of color coding the white wires is a good one. Many times, breakers are rearranged in boxes and the black taped part could be cut off and the wire accidentally attached back to the wrong place.
How did you end up with so many 240 volt circuits coming from your box? Must have lots of heavy duty shop toys????
How did you end up with so many 240 volt circuits coming from your box? Must have lots of heavy duty shop toys????
Some toys now, and more in my future. I dislike doing things twice and plowing through insulation is the pits, so used the belt and suspenders approach. It's a fair sized garage at 2700 sq. ft.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Fair sized garage??? Maybe in Texas....but in Michigan that qualifies as a BIG garage!
EDIT...For some reason, I thought you lived in Michigan....Maybe in Idaho, it is only a fair sized garage!
Edited 8/23/2008 12:03 pm ET by BoJangles
Well, a little 'good news' and some bad news.
The 1-1/4" is measured from the surface, not the framing, so you should not need nail plates. Indeed, I doubt the nail plates will remain in place very long without some sort of sheathing over them.
As for the ground rod, it is possible that your locale requires two grounding electrodes. ... though, in this case, I doubt it. That's how good a Ufer is. One can get bogged down in all manner of theory, but the short version is that having a second grounding electrode less than six feet from the first is pretty much useless; it does virtually nothing to reduce the impedance of the ground path. There's no harm in having it there - it just doesn't help any.
The white wire needs to be 'permanently' marked. Whether tape qualifies is a matter of debate. Personally, I consider tape adequate - but I also would prefer a color other than black.
The only solid hit the guy got was with the bath circuits. Bathroom circuits get to serve bathrooms, and nothing else. While there might be some 'wiggle room' for a dressing area immediately adjacent to a doorless shower area, the mechanical room is clearly not part of the bath.
We have this gem thanks to two things: the monster hair dryers, and other accessories, found in bathrooms ... and the 'hide and seek' that resulted when shared circuits were allowed, and the GFCI could be hidden anywhere in the house.
Since a Ufer is really the whole foundation it is substantially more than 6' from the rod but the 6' does not really apply to the Ufer in the first place ... as Bill pointed out.
Even if this was two rods, The code is really saying more than one within the 6' "well of influence" would really only get counted as one.
Edited 8/23/2008 10:30 am ET by gfretwell
Whether tape qualifies is a matter of debate. Personally, I consider tape adequate - but I also would prefer a color other than black.they sell tape just for this, comes in five colors in one pack and it a thin width tape
I try to keep a pack or two of the cheap HF heat shrink tubing on hand (it has red black and white). Also a red sharpie and a bottle of auto touch-up paint in red. A roll of red and a roll of orange are always on hand also.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
"So I need to put nail plates wherever wiring intersects framing. No biggie except I was just going to paint the OSB, so there will be exposed nail plates here and there."
At least there will be until after electrical is signed off, then pry plates off, spackle and paint.
Basically, the electrical inspector trumps NEC. If he tells you to paint all electrical boxes pink, you had better do it. Could you have pissed him off?
The grounding issue is non-negotiable. I don't have my code book with me (its in the car, off day, I'm too tired to go get it). Your electrical system needs to be finally tuned. We actually torque screws to a specific psi in electrical gears--harmonics play a role in the current passing through the wire, like tuning a guitar. But thats not really relevant to your situation. If the inspector says six feet apart, you go six feet, regardless of what the code book says.
The nail plates are also important. You may just be painting the OSB, but a future owner might try to put up wallboard and kill himself in the process. SIPs hasn't hit it big here in the Southeast, and there is a good chance that your inspector just doesn't like SIPs. If the factory bored the holes, then they should meet most building code requirments for depth. If you can prove to him that the chases do meet code, maybe with factory literature or something, you might be able to get by there. Code says 1 1/4, if the factory didn't provide for this, you bought your panels from the wrong factory.
As far as I understand it, re-phasing (taping) a conductor as a hot when it originally was not is OK as long as the tape covers the conductor from the connector to the termination, so that none of the original color is visible. I think that this is OK in panels as well, but the bottom line is that the inspector has final say. If he doesn't like it, you can't do it if you want the green sticker.
"Basically, the electrical inspector trumps NEC."That is absolutely false.Now there are lots of gray areas in the code.But an inspector can't require things that are clearly not in the code or contrary to the code.There have been way too many court cases that says that the inspector is not a dictor, but can only enforce what the legistaltive body adopts. Now alot of time it is not worth it to challenge them..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The book, has been proofread by 1000's of people, every topic has reference that been check. College and university, testing people has design the book. The inspector is just running his mouth, nothing to back him up but the book.I ran one county electrical inspector off my site, and when him and his boss came back to red tag me. I had a P.E. stamp on his so call violation, He could not touch me. A P.E. over ride a county inspector because a P.E. will accept liability and the county wont.A county inspector is just a Wally world wannabe.
Edited 8/23/2008 4:36 pm by brownbagg
A PE certainly does not trump the AHJ but that is the chief building official (In Florida it is ultimately the FBC in Tallahassee), not the inspector.I do agree with Bill that you have the right to question a ruling. When I was inspecting I welcomed questions about things I cited. We could get the book out and read it together. There were times that I agreed I was wrong. In a 3 year code cycle with new stuff popping up every cycle, it is easy to be wrong. There are also circumstances that may make your normal logic wrong. My CBO gave me the power of AHJ but he said the bottom line was to rule on the side of safety and not to get too tangled up in semantics. My philosophy has always been to understand the hazard we are trying to prevent and go from there.
Edited 8/23/2008 5:40 pm ET by gfretwell
I'm not saying that you violate codes in order to appease an inspector. In fact, if an inspector's boss knew that he wanted you to go against a written code, that inspector wouldn't have a job for very long. If your right, find the code that proves it and bring it to his attention. He'll respect you for it. The NEC changes every three years, and I'm sure its even hard for the inspectors to keep up. My jurisdiction has yet to adopt any of the 2008 code, and when and if they do, there will be significant changes that will add tremendous costs to wiring a house. In my experiance, most inspectors aren't there to burn you, they are there to make sure that the job is done safely and right. But piss on off, your job may never get finished. Do what he says if your unsure, and politely challenge him when you are.
No, basically it is not. When the code says AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) they mean the building department and associated electrical inspectors. Read the book.
Your building authority doesn't even have to adopt the NEC, it can adopt all, parts, or none.
Edited 8/23/2008 11:02 pm ET by arcflash
Could you have pissed him off?
I don't think I did specifically, but as mentioned earlier, I think homeowner done projects are a little of a thorn in their side, so coming in expecting problems is probably a given. I asked as much, and he said that they take longer, which can lead to delays in their schedule. They do respond to an inspection request fast. I called Friday morning, and got an inspection Friday afternoon.
I come at these in a benevolent way. I want safe and sound too, and who knows, I may learn something. Best not to let my ego make the path harder than it has to be!
All redo's can be accomplished without great expense or effort. I guess it boils down to the path of least resistance for me. I don't always take it, but sometimes it pays to make that choice. Paraphrasing somebody quote here, I'm sure; "Is this the hill you want to die on?" No, in this case.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Look I've skimmed over this thread and don't think it's worth argueing over. The guy is a little quirky but not that bad. Just fix it and be done with the guy. Flip him off behind his back when he's leaving. Always re identify your wires back to the jacket anyway. If you want to argue that little point then your not getting the concept. Or your too lazy to be safe.
To tell you the truth I would have probably done it all the way he wanted it anyway but I'm used to thinking that way. Except the ground rod deal. Extra grounding can't hurt as far as I know. Use that round rod for your phone and cable. Or hook it up after he leaves.
Whoomp there it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2u2tRlKHpo&feature=related
" Use that round rod for your phone and cable. "You can use it "standalone".The ground for phone and cable have to be bonded to the "electrical" ground.I wored it like that because, without looking it up I don't know if it can tie into an EGC or not. But I am thinking that it has to tie into the ground electrode or ground electrod conductor.Any way it is to be ONE WITH THE ELECTRICAL system and not driven alone..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Why do they have to be with the electrical system? I've never worried about it. Being the guy that has to drive them I don't have a tendancy to drive any extras. LOL
Whoomp there it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2u2tRlKHpo&feature=related
The idea is that all grounds and grounded and bonded stuff in the house be tied together and move together.Say that the cable comes in the house on the oposite side of the house and has it's own ground rod. Now there is a lightning strike down the block and the cable spikes up 1000 volts. And that is carried to the cable modem, cable boxes, and TV's and the like. While the powerside of those is all referenced to the ground on the the other side of the house which has not moved.But if the TV cable is ground to the power ground electrodes then then either it is enough additional ground to absorbe the spike or BOTH THE cable and the power spike up togeterh and no problems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I agree 100% with Bill on this. I did lightning protection for IBM in SW Florida and the first thing we did was be sure all the electrodes were bonded together.
There have been a variety of responses to this thread ... and some of them even come from competent folks! You have to pick your fights. It's not worth it to make a Federal case out of ever detail. Inspector wants the switched receptacles 'upside down?" Flip them and move on. That said, it's perfectly proper to ask him to show you the code he's referring to. I had to do this once ... and, to my utter astonishment, neither the inspector, nor the specialty contractor involved, had ever seen the specific code they were citing! Just some 'seminar' training and maybe videotapes. It did make for an interesting discussion ... especially when I provided the appropriate code.
I gotcha now. Thanks.
Whoomp there it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2u2tRlKHpo&feature=related
If you want to argue that little point then your not getting the concept. Or your too lazy to be safe.
I hear what you're saying Gunner, but my original post wasn't about gathering ammo for a shootout. More than anything, I was curious about the intent of the code that applied. I'm not trying to vilain-ize the guy or shortcut the work.
I've fought battles based on principal, only to end up with a hollow victory. As I alluded to earlier, it boils down to two things for me. Safety and getting a green tag.
I redid the panel yesterday with purty red shrink tube. Thanks to whomever suggested the rolls of it at Harbor Freight. I'll reticfy the rest in the next few days and then get ready for plumbing inspection....
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Gotcha. I was a little terse in my response. It boils down to the guy makes maybe a little more then minimium wage and very few people are happy to see him. Or even want to see him. He only does the job because he wants some sort of authority and can't pass the mental evaluation to become a cop.
Some inspectors are actually nice guys and I like talking to them. But my above description covers a large percentage of them.
Whoomp there it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2u2tRlKHpo&feature=related