Is it possible to fasten 1 x 4 Ipe decking with PL Premium and 15g stainless trim nails. It will be over a flat roof. Not much ventilation. Is this suicide?
Will the PL keep the boards from cupping?
Thanks,
Ken
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Hover's smartphone app offers an easier way to get precise 3D scans.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
TOH did that a couple of times. One on the rebuilding of Tom's brothers home.
They used a 3M polyurathen marine adhsive.
Same family as PL Premium. Don't have any idea of the detailed differences.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ditto Hartmann......and like Silva did, go to the 3M Marine adhesive. I just put down IPE at my own home, small section of a large deck, 7xl6, shot it in with 15G SS nails, 2inch into 3/4 boards. Small cracks where nails penetrate, nothing serious. Looks GREAT, but we'll see what winter does to it.
Yeah, we'll see.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ha ha ha
ho ho ho
hee hee hee
Oh Man, my sides hurt from laughing, but that is a better way to wake up and get the blood moving than just this coffee I spilled on my lap.
There is not a gun made that will consistently drive 15 ga nails into ipe. Those nails will fold up or fly right off the surface. There is a reason it is nicknamed ironwood. You have to predrill and screw
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
A 15g will go in Ipe. If you don't have any SS around, try it with regular finish nails. yeah there is some difference in SS vs. steel but its just an experiment. You need to put the pressure up some, I think around 110 psi but they'll sink in no problem. It works fine on 3/4", I've never tried it on 5/4 but I think it would but maybe you'll need a few more psi's.You will have the occasional nail that you'll need to set but the counter sink is the same percentage as basically any other wood.I like my siding gun too much to try those nails but I think they would probably go through no problem. Framing nails I doubt, they are just too thick.
But with any screws, its a must that you pre drill.
given the oil in the ipe interferring with glue bond, the strength of the ipe fighting against winpy 15 ga nails, the force it takes to yank it into position, it'll be a cold day in hell before I think about something this goofy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whether you like the method or not, my post was on the nailing. Just trying nailing a scrap piece, it will change your view of Ipe a little.I really don't find Ipe as having much oil in the wood, to me its a fairly dry wood. It is extremely dense and that has some issues with glue. I've made some outdoor furniture with Ipe and used Titebond III and Ipe stepped dowels from miller. Just made a two seat chair with a table joining the two and used no fasteners, just the dowels and titebond and it's incredibly strong.Ipe glues fine, the issue for decking would be the moisture or surface quality of the PT framing.
About 7 or 8 years ago I had stairs and deck rails to build . I did not build the deck. I used my Bosch 15 ga nailer with adhesive to fasten the Ipe. At that time I hadn't heard of Ipe much less used it.I knew it was hard as heck and not bouyant. I accidently dropped a short piece in a kiddy pool and watched it sink to the bottom in amazement.The GC stopped by as I was finishing up. He was amazed I could nail it at all. To get the nails to set flush, I removed the rubber tip and set the pressure to 100. Had to hand set about 5% of the nails.
mike
Everyone I talk to that has experience with Ipe wants me to try this tecnique to see if it will work but no one wants to warrenty it. I think I will try something else.
Will 5/4 x 4 Ipe cup using the Ipe-Clip or something similar and PL Premium over a not very well ventilated space?
I hate the idea of face screwing, asthetically.
Ken
I have always used 1x4 rather than 5/4. Never had a problem with cupping. The strength of IPE when it decides to move is responsible for all the complaints I've read here that the EBTYs fail. Not sure how well ipeclip[s work, but somebody here said better.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
where you have good drainage, I don't think you'll have a problem with cupping. Unless you want the look of the 5/4, use the 4/4 and save the money. There is no need for 5/4 unless that is the look you are going for.The eb ty's work very well and when I've used them they the Ipe does not have any problems with cupping. The look of the deck with those hidden fasteners is great. The downside with eb ty's, ipe clips, etc is the extra labor to install the decking. Ipe takes a lot of time to install and the hidden fasteners add even more time to that.
It seems to me that the clip fasteners, with pre-grooved sides would install faster than predrilling 2 screws per joist. No?
Ken
I can't speak for ipe', but I did lay 2,700 lf of 1x4 cvg fir decking using this method, just a few days ago.....
Used 3m 5200, recommended by several "boat guy" buddies as bulletproof. The best advice I got was from a friend who's been running a charter boat out of Galilee, in RI, for 20 something years. He said, "It makes a mess and gets on everything, but if you stick two things together with it, you'll need a chisel to get 'em apart."
I am very, very happy with the results on the main porch floor that we used this glue on. Prime concern is in keeping weight on the decking as it's being shot, as any tiny gap will give opportunity for noise. As Paul said, moving the ipe is sometimes no easy feat, I would go with 1x as opposed to 5/4.
I can't say that the nailer I used would make it through ipe, as I said, I used fir, which while hard, not in the same ballpark as ipe. I'm posting in regards to the glue down method.I will say though, that I don't think it matters a whole lot what you shoot it with as long as it's galvy, or ss, and it's capable of "clamping" the wood tight til the glue dries.
The only downside type issue I had using the glue-n-shoot method was on the stairs. I usually use decking to do my treads, due mainly to the fact that, while 11-1/2" fir treads w/ bullnose are available, I always fear cupping, and can't guarantee that the work will be faithfully maintained. I glued and shot the decking on the stairs, and it "clicks" when I walk on them.Doesn't do it anywhere on the porch floor itself.I'm guessing that the stringer cut is more like nailing to end grain, while top of joist is edge grain, didn't fasten as well. Owner doesn't care a lick, loves the decking, yadda, yadda.....drives me crazy. Probably going to add some ss ring shanks right next to the shot nails to try to quiet it down.
my .02
Bing
I've never used the pre grooved, I used a plate joiner to cut the slots, and that takes time. I would probably agree the clips would be faster than the two screws. It will ad some cost to the project.
They had me going thinking wow, that would be pretty cool if i could slam IPE together with trim nails.
Thanks for the dose of reality. Sort of felt like getting hit with that IPE 4x4.
Back to biscuits and ebties
I would put it on sleepers and screw from the underside with SS screws. Then it will breath and you can remove it if you need to do work on the roof.
Maybe I am too concerned about moisture underneath.
The new deck will be built on a garage roof enclosed on all 4 sides. There are 2 scuppers to drain the roof, so that is a little ventilation. The new framing will be 2 x 12s hung from the cmu walls spanning the entire width with a sleeper breaking up the span in the middle. This will be elevated above the roof deck 6" on the scupper side and 0" on the other side.
Am I over thinking this? I do not want a callback in the spring for cupped boards. The whole project will be a very expensive outdoor space.
Ken
Whats the pitch, 1/4" to the ft ? If so I would put the Ipe right on the roof with sleepers like I said. The pic I posted was done this way on a rubber roof with about that pitch (tho you can not tell with that small a deck).
I have the room and the need to put the 2 x 12s in. Since a porch collapse a few years ago, Chicago has come up with the strategy of overbuilding everything. I am also going to rebuild the roof since some of the 14" TJI's have succombed to water damage.
Ken
I wouldn't worry about the nail pulling through the ipe, but the terrible holding power of a 15g finish nail in even doug fir framing and the forces put on them if the ipe wants to move at all. Heck, even indoor flooring cleats hold better than a 15g! Outdoors--bad idea.
Since the design of the deck is sure to hold snow the chances of wood movement greatly increases.
I'd face screw or use an ebty type fastener. I have used ebty's (sp?) on a couple of epi decks and they worked great, although our wood was very straight and dry. Since the plastic ebty is relatively soft I can see how bowed or twisted wood would be difficult to use with that system. Heck I don't know that the 15g will even hold a slightly bowed piece of epi on installation, let alone over time.
With the ebtys our contractor client (his retirement home) insisted on construction adhesive to take up any slight gaps caused with the soft plastic ties.
Best of luck!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I am currently working on a 2400 square foot deck. It is over a flat roof of sorts. The deck material is quarter sawn white oak. We are using ipe as sleepers underneath. Predrill and use stainless screws. We are also using a slip sheet of rubber under the sleepers.
Sounds like quite a deck.How about some pics.H
you might consider face screwing and plugging. We are just finishing up a remodel that included six decks, all fastened with PL premium and EB TYs some cupping anyway. I wouldnt build an Ipe deck with finish nails, its just asking for problems. Ipe WILL move when it wants to so better to have the strength of screws.
Outside of possibly the pacific NW, Ipe is very stable, it does not "move". There is a myth that Ipe moves, it doesn't. It's probably the density among other things but it does not move with humidity changes like other woods might. Any cupping is due to inadequate drainage or ventilation under the deck.
All our decks are on stemwalls with a concrete pad 6 inches underneath which drain to the street, drainage isnt a problem. The miters that were perfect when executed that have since opened slightly, the gaps between boards which have gotten larger a couple so much so they needed replacing and the small amount of cupping on even the one deck that is mostly covered are in my opinion proof that it does in fact move. Wood moves.
when I refer to IPE moving, I mean side to side warp type movement, not shrinking and swelling. I agree that it has little shrinkage, but it does want to yank if not well fastened.Yesterday, I was using penofin oil on an IPE deck we laid about 3-1/2 years ago in winter. I would say that some of the 1x4 boards shrank a strong sixteenth inch in all that time, and those were on the sunny side in hot dry sun for the past three weeks. The ones protected under the porch roof seemed same size and spacing as I recal installing them at.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
PL Premium just doesn't cut it. Use 3M 5200 (preferred) or 4200.
I've never had Ipe cup to a point where it would hold water no matter what method was used.
The method I used was 5200 and 18g staple or brad toenailed just to hold in place while the 5200 set up.
I would krinkle every fifth brad, but they were easy to pull out.
I used tigerclaw fasteners every 3rd or 4th joist depending on the length of my ipe board.
The reason for even attempting this the 1st time was due to shortage of tigerclaw clips.
I ran out of 5200 one day and used PL Premium to finish up the day-- about 6-8 boards. I glued up 3 scraps of ipe using 5200 on 1 side and PL on the other. I forgot about this test piece until a few weeks ago when I was prepping for the hurricane.
Anyway I found my test piece (pics below) and put it to the test. The PL side came apart without too much tugging, while the 5200 side is stuck better then a screwdriver can do damage to.
The PL is still pliable, but does not have a good bond.
Both methods survived the eye of Gustav last week, but I'm sticking to 5200 for all outdoor projects.
Ray