I am in no way involved in this project, other than to supply trusses. But I’m curious about this situation and am trying to learn somethnig.
Last night I stopped to measure a foundation for trusses. A GC bought a vacant plot of land in town, and is planning to build 10 modest houses on it. Right now house #2 has a foundation in the ground.
The plot of land in on a hillside. At the bottom is a small ditch that only has water during REALLY heavy rains.
The GC had the lot surveyed before he built anything, and the surveyor told the him that part of the ground was in a flood plain. So the GC had a retaining wall put in, and built the elevation of the ground around the lowest house up to 5′ above what the surveyor said the height of the flood plain is.
When the HO for the bank went to get a loan, they told them they would have to get flood insurance since they’re in a flood plain. Doesn’t matter that the ground elevation has been built up – FEMA still says the area is a flood plain.
The surveyor told the GC not to call FEMA – He may get into trouble for adding fill in a flood plain. But the HO doesn’t want to pay for flood insurance.
No way in hell is this area actually a flood plain. The ditch is a pathetically small one, and only drains a few acres. The lowest house foundation is 15′ or more above the ditch.
.
Just for my own education, I’m wondering – How do you get FEMA to drop a “flood plain” designation?
Is the guy likely to actually get into trouble for putting fill in?
I’m just kinda curious how it all works…
I haven’t been the same since that house fell on my sister.
Replies
BossHog said, "Just for my own education, I'm wondering - How do you get FEMA to drop a "flood plain" designation?
Is the guy likely to actually get into trouble for putting fill in?
I'm just kinda curious how it all works..."
#1. I think would be very difficult.
#2. Filling in flood plains usually must be approved. The big guns are the Army Corps of Eng.
I build on the coast and we fill lots quite often. However we get approval from the local govt. first.
Check out this story on flood plains and FEMA:
http://www.dicksonherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070321/COUNTY090101/703210352
Sounds like he build a berm or a dam or a small "levee" rather than raising the grade so the house would actually sit above the Base Flood Elevation. I may be reading this wrong.
FEMA maps a community and they look at canals, ditches, any area of runoff, as well as a standing water feature, of course. If you're mapped in the flood zone, there's probably nothing you can do to change that.
But a house can be placed IN the flood zone, but be placed HIGH ENOUGH to be ABOVE the actual Base Flood Elevation. You really can't judge terrain or elevation by eye. What the guy needs is an Elevation Certificate from a Surveyor. They shoot the finished floor level and find out how high it is above the Base Flood Elevation. If the house is elevated enough, either by fill or by a raised foundation . . . well, the house is still in the flood zone, but every foot above the BFE that they raise it makes a HUGE difference in the cost of Flood Insurance.
If the footprint of the house is in the flood zone, the mortgage company can require the homeowner to carry flood insurance. The higher the finished floor, the cheaper the flood insurance.
Greg
He built a retaining wall, and hauled in a bunch of fill - It isn't just a berm.According to the GC, the floor of the house is at least 5' above the flood plain elevation. But you're right - It's still technically in a flood plain.Even though the idea that this is a flood plain is ridiculous....
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"Even though the idea that this is a flood plain is ridiculous...."IIRC corps of eng says if you have standing water in a spot for 5 days or so you have wetlands. hows that for sense.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
<<< IIRC corps of eng says if you have standing water in a spot for 5 days or so you have wetlands. hows that for sense.>>>A few years ago that definition of wetland was challenged. There was a tract of land which was jointly purchased by several Illinois municipalities years ago. Land was purchase for a future land fill. After regulators recently denied the application for the landfill they sued. Case ended up going all the way to the US Supreme Court. Municipalities won the case.
"He built a retaining wall, and hauled in a bunch of fill - It isn't just a berm."If the retaining wall was not engineered and designed and inspected by the army Corps of Engineers or whoever else has the authority there, then there is no assurance that it will not simply be washed right away by the next hundred year flood, and let the house gfo with it.I'm noit arguing with you, just providing the answers from the legal side of this, having dealt with it as a builder and as a planning board member. There may be differences in river flood plains than in tidal flood plains that I am not aware of, but to clarify a point that Greg made, the minimum requirement is that it be built so the fllor of any living space is one foot above the high flood elevation, and that certain kinds of anchors and fastenings be used to make sure the house stays put.I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but another requirement here is that the space under that floor must be breakaway so water can flow thrugh it, such as built on piers or other approved designs.So if there is a basement, this guy may be doubly sh!t out of luck
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I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but another requirement here is that the space under that floor must be breakaway so water can flow thrugh it, such as built on piers or other approved designs.
There are flood vents available that will meet this requirement. I beleive each you need 1 per 200 sq ft of enclosed space that is below the flood elevation.
Fema has some good info available on their site for building in flood plains.
The reason that permission for filling in the flood plain is difficult get is that part of the effects are down stream. That filled area no longer can hold water when it starts to flood, that means more water must be handled in the flood zones down stream. So if everyone does it--essentially channelling the streams, at some point it can have significant effects.
I am aware of a change to a flood zone map that was fought for by my town when a bad map placed a corner of the school project in the flood zone despite being on high and dry land (and had always been that way). But it took a major battle by a governmental unit.
we had one here, where this guy bought a small waterfront lot and he wanted bigger, so he filled in like two acres of wetland about 15 feet in elevation, built a house. Army corp made him tear the house down and remove the fill..A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do...
"How do you get FEMA to drop a "flood plain" designation?"
You have to apply for a map revision, I believe it is referred to as FOMRC or something like that, to remove the flood designation.
It a real chicken and the egg thing. Can't get the revision until the improvements are made, difficult to get the development loan with the flood designation.
I'm not sure what, if any the consequences are for building/putting fill in the flood zone. I suppose there may need to be some compensating improvements to handle the now displaced volume of runnoff.
Around here, it would take a year or two of special permits and hearings to get a permit to do what he has already done, so yes, he could get in trouble. I know contractors here who bit the bullet for ten grand in fines and had to restore to original condition.
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>> A GC bought a vacant plot of land in town, and is planning to build 10 modest houses on it. Right now house #2 has a foundation in the ground. << ..........
>> The GC had the lot surveyed before he built anything, and the surveyor told the him that part of the ground was in a flood plain. <<
Seems extremely odd that the area wasn't designated as a flood plain on the plat when the GC bought the land.
Here is what I've heard.
Back when the big floods occured on the Mississippi in the 90's FEMA went broke.
So they went around and bumped out all the lines on the flood plain maps to bring in more money.
The reason I know this is we refinanced this house when interest rates were down, the finance company said we were in a flood plain.
I got out a U.S.G.S map it showed the house and ground around it was above the elevation of the 100 year flood plain.
She went to the county enginer's office, they told her about Fema moving the lines out on the map.
Our solution was to have a bench mark loop ran to the house by a surveyor, he then wrote up a paper saying the lowest place on the house was 2.9 feet above the 100 year flood plain.
The finance company accepted the survey, so the $380 for the survey was money well spent, the flood insurance was going to be $500 a year.
Nice of our government to look out for us isn't it?
SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
It might have more to do with reality than money. They categorize some of this per ten year flood and hundred year flood. When you end up with three hundred year floods in a dozen years, it is time to change the maps or the calenders, don't you think?
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There is a form that he can have his surveyor fill out. It's called a Letter of Map Revision (LOMR) letter. If he asked what the Base Flood Elevation was of the 100 Year flood plain, and built the house slab AND equipment pads at least one foot above the BFE, there should be no problem getting the LOMR letter approved. The LOMR letter states that although the house WAS in a flood zone, because of the current elevation, it no longer is.
We do this many times in Florida, because basically the entire state is at sea level. Don't let "Flood Zone" be confused with "Wetlands". Many municipalities don't care what you do with flood zone lots, just as long as they aren't protected wetlands. The flood zone map datum can be many years old, or they are recently remapping areas with the latest in GPS technology.
Be warned though, the process can take a minimum of 6 months to get back after the surveyor submits it, and the surveyor will charge for EACH lot to pull out.
You can get a letter of map amendment (LOMA) to take a property out of a flood plain. The surveyor may know how to do it. There is a bunch of government paperwork and it could take three to six months. He would need the base flood elevation and what the lowest elevation adjacent to the house is.
They may be able to do a search on the FEMA web site to get more info. I had to do one years ago to show a property was actually in a flood plain.
I'd go with a LOMA also.
http://www.fema.gov/plan/prevent/fhm/fmc_loma.shtm
Some of the flood maps are a joke. Most have very large scales the must be scaled with a ruler. Get a good Civil Engineer/Surveyor involved.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I am currently working on this problem with some condos I manage. Only two buildings were in the original flood zone, but the city told us in January 2006 that they submitted a new flood map to FEMA in October 2005 and we should wait until it was approved before applying for a Letter of Map Revision Based on Fill (LOMR-F). The city expected FEMA approval by April 2006. At this time no approval in site.
In the meantime a couple of loans were sold and the new lenders sent notices that they were requiring flood insurance. The city engineer, the developer's engineer, and the condo owners’ insurance company all say that these particular buildings are not in flood zone A. However, we learned that a lender can require flood insurance even if a unit is near the flood zone.
We are doing a LOMR-F (Letter of Map Revision Based on Fill). Here is the FEMA site http://www.fema.gov/plan/prevent/fhm/ot_lmreq.shtm
We have an engineering company filling out certain parts of the paperwork and doing the maps to show building locations. They will provide the elevation certificates and other required certifications. The city has to sign a section saying that they approved the fill. We have to supply condominium documents and auditor plat maps and answer lots of questions.
The FEMA fee is $800 for multiple structures and the engineer's fee for seven buildings is $1,500.
I have a haybine story to tell you later.
Maybe mortgage companies have gotten a lot more "gun shy" since hurricane Katrina. Obviously many HOs had to default on their loans in Mississippi and Louisiana.
The mortgage companies have been much more attentive to flood insurance ever since the Mississippi River floods of 1993. They really started to scrutinize every loan after that.
Any OLD contract, a loan made before that, they couldn't go back and demand that you buy flood insurance. That's why, when you go to buy a house, the seller shakes his head and says, "Well, WE never had to carry flood insurance."
Greg