Somewhere in one of the discussions (which I can’t find) was a comment about using paper tape rather than fiberglass. No details were given as to why the poster didn’t like the fiberglass. What are the pros & cons of each?
Somewhere in one of the discussions (which I can’t find) was a comment about using paper tape rather than fiberglass. No details were given as to why the poster didn’t like the fiberglass. What are the pros & cons of each?
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Replies
Paper is smooth, and I like it for both corners and flat surfaces.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
This came up in a discussion at work last week...so I'm interested to hear more myself.
Someone felt negatively about the fiberglass, because since it comes with adhesive backing already...it usually doesn't get bedded in mud like the paper does. This could lead to joint cracking/failure since the mud isn't filling in the whole joint between the sheets (what we suspect happend in a job that's failing after only 1 yr).
I guess I'd buy that argument. That's not to say you couldn't bed the fiberglass the same way you bed the paper. How is it usually done/accepted practice?
First I would like to clarify I am not a taper. I have used fiberglass tape previously with various results. It is easier to apply, harder to tape, especially butt joints. I won't use it again except for hole repairs.The last time I used it hairline cracks showed up in the ceiling. Never had this problem with paper tape.I thought it might have been the mud or my technique.Professional tapers told me it was the fiberglass tape.
Sometimes it's hard to be as definitive as we'd like in explaining. It'd be great if I could quote some great nationwide scientific survey that found that fiberglass tape stinks and therefore justify my position. But it's all about experiences and what we've done and what works, and fiberglass in my experience is just harder to deal with. On flat surfaces not as much. It's probably best in the sunken areas on your edges, but on flats it sticks up more than paper and on an inside corner it always seems to pop loose. This leaves you a few months down the road with little strands showing through your corners. In a small patch, it probably does have more strength than paper, but if the patch is big enough to have to tape, the hole should get it's strength from backing or clips, and not the tape. Paper smooths out even and you can sink it into the mud. Fiberglass is stuck where you put it and too much knife pressure can curl it, and once you get that, they don't uncurl very well. I'm not a fan of it. It's a neat idea - stronger tape. But my vote here has to be with the cliche of "if it ain't broke . . ." and stick with paper.
Everyone has brought up valid points that I have noticed in using fiber and paper tapes. One thing I have run into where fiber tape seems to work better than paper, is when we have to repair a wall that has already been primed and painted. We have problems with the paper tape loosening as the mud dries. Fiber tape does not do this. IMHO the cause of this is the moisture from the mud not being able to penetrate the primed and painted surface of the wall, causing it to try to come through the paper tape and causing it to lift. But then again I could be wrong.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
Paper tape and fiber mesh are used for two different applications . They tried selling it to homowners and its not working . There are good reasons why. Let me get in to the aplications used for each.
Mesh fiber is used professionally only with the hard variety of quick set joint compound. This is a compound rich in binder [ which is like glue] , and it sets hard . The hardest compound we have for drywall finish. This compound will "cement" if you will for understanding , the mesh tape to the wall, and with in it self. This compound is so hard it wont crack by itself in small applications. Its close to floor hot patch. After it is bedded /floated in the same application , then its the users choice for top coats as long as you dont use hot mud for your final skim. They do make an easy sand quick dry that is soft for this purpose, but I choose regulat plus 3 for the final top coat. This tape is used for quick small jobs allowing the user a tape coat and float in the first application. From a hole in the wall , to maybe a small bed room . It is possible finishing a small job in one day. I use it with 10 minute hot mud to patch customer holes. Im there and gone in about an hour. Quick, fast , small applications. You may use it on a bigger job , but hot mud is a pain . You have to figgure the working time and run like h#ll. Freezing applications would apply here also, if the job will be sud zero at night. The longest set is 90 minutes . Some times we use the four inch mesh to reinforce a crack with out backing behind the rock. Both the mesh and the hot mud mentioned may be used for reinforcement. Cracking comes when the compound is wrong , thus not having the properties necesary to hold it .
Paper tape is our standard using it with joint compound only , not lite weight mud. Of course it can be used in conjunction with hod mud also, but you lose the two step in one method described above. Topping mud or light weight mud should never be used for taping in any mud variety. Its a soft mud that was formulated for easy sanding, not a binding mud . So hence , finish coats only .
Tim Mooney
I made an error in my post above . I wasin a hurry to go out to eat and make a cubscout meeting . I figgured someone would have lined me out before I got back . LOL Heres my correction ;
I use a floor patch for the 10 minute set time mentioned above .
They sell hot mud in these ranges, but often 90 is all stores here stock. I order the rest and keep it on hand.
20 minute , 30 minute , 45 minute , 90 minute , and 120 minute .
Tim Mooney
usg also sells a hot mud in 5 and i think 210 min.
james
WEll, I just called at supper to make sure of my post , but I will have the yard to call the plant . But Im sure there is no 5 minute, as I would stock it .
Tim Mooney
Just use hot water on the twenty and you'll be lucky to mix and spread before it sets.
I appreciated your explanation, Tim. I always knew that the fibreglas gave poor results without understanding why. Usually it would bring out hairline cracks at the edge of the tape, indicating poor adhesion to the SR. I never used it but see this when i do repairs and find that the fibreglass is the underlying.
Most mud boys around here consider it (fibreglas) for DIYs and don't use it..
Excellence is its own reward!
We are here to help each other , and I try to give a small portion back . If you will look at this site , you will see that pros use it , with hot mud , and are serious about it . You will find a tool there thats made just to put it on . I have a full set of the other tools , and rent that one , for I dont need it except in cold conditions.
http://www.tapetech.com
Your welcome ,
Tim Mooney
Tim
I use it regularly, it is durabond e z sand.
I looked on the USG website and did not find it, but I did find out that they also make a setting compound up to 300 min. have your guy call the distributor to verify or if you like I will snap a photo at the lumber yard for you.
it is great for fast patches etc, and the 5 in not a lie it will go from zero to hard in 5min.
http://doityourself.com/store/jointcompounds.htm
http://www.livingstonbldgmaterials.com/AssesoriesandPlasterItems.htm
edited to add websites.
have a look. apology accepted :)
Edited 10/15/2002 12:37:27 AM ET by james
been using fiberglass exclusively for small jobs on a condo coversion where materials are supplied by the owner...
we will be requesting paper tape for future work. the job requires finishing only a couple of inside and outside corners in a 24" x 24" alcove. every inside corner developes a hairline crack using the fiberglass.
ps. we are currently using 20 min and 5 min muds, finishing with topping, then texture coating.
the cracking may be due to the fact that the work gets bumped around a week later when we install a base cabinet and sometimes an upper cabinet or arch within the opening. thoughts???
brian :-)>
Edited 10/15/2002 1:05:49 AM ET by brian smith
Edited 10/15/2002 1:08:11 AM ET by brian smith
If you will read my post again , you will see that I wasnt talking about easy sand .
Im only talking about durabond with fiber tape . The name says it all, easy sand is not for taping fiber tape.
Tim Mooney
I just bought a bag of Easy Sand 5 and used some this weekend.
I'm curious about the five minute stuff. I have trouble with twenty setting up in the bag, once openned because of humid climate here. Is the five pretty much gone once the bag is openned?.
Excellence is its own reward!
We'll see. This is the first time I've used the 5.
Please read up Grant . WE dont have an arguement , we were talking about two different things . Durabond is totally different than easy sand . Both of us were right in our postings , we just got tangled for a minute between the two. People error as normal . Why are the most common mistakes on a tape made by one inch, when the right meausement is in veiw ? Stuff happens , lets not let this down this discussion .
Tim Mooney
Sorry Grant , the last part should have been adressed to all . Its always a shame when a good discussion gets ruined over a disagreement , for it robs every one of the knowledge that could have continued for all.
Tim Mooney
Tim,
sorry about the mis understanding. here in the bay area it is very hard to get durabond, but easy sand is plentiful so when someone says setting type or durabond they usually mean ez sand.
the guys here who use the monster mesher use the ez sand for everything but the top coat, we do not use mesh because of the cracking problems.
I wasn't arguing with you - just mentioning Easy Sand was available in 5 min. 'Round these parts, though, durabond is a generic term for both Durabond and Easy Sand. Peace.
Paper tape and fiber mesh are used for two different applications . They tried selling it to homowners and its not working . There are good reasons why. Let me get in to the aplications used for each.
Tim, that was one of the best explanations I have ever read on the subject, Kudos!
I've always used fibertape/durabond on flat and butt-joints with excellent results. Paper/standard mud for inside 90's and metal backed paper/standard mud for angles. I've never tried light mud or easy sand although I could have used it when I was learning, I used to sand alot back then...
sometimes board sometimes knot
Thank you.
Tim Mooney
I am getting distressed after reading through this thread.
I have a house full of hairline cracks on sand textured swirl finish skim coated plaster walls that has never been painted since it was installed in the 1950s. These cracks are worse on ceilings then walls, usually appearing at the rock lath seams.
After much hemming and hawing over the choise of patching material, I decided to use all purpose joint compound that is fortified with sand and reenforced with fiberglass tape.
Some spots I will use a wide roll of the mesh, as recommended in a FH article on alternative methods for patching plaster....
I called USG and spoke with a technician and he did mention the chemically cured compounds being a more durable patch but difficult to sand (if necessary.)
USG site specifically mentions not to use fiberglass with the softer joint compounds, which includes the lightweight and easy sand stuff as well as the all-purpose joint compound.
However, in the FH article the author mentions fortifying the compound with mason's sand as an excellent base coat but I will be using this as the patch/finish coat that will be primed and painted after the swirl texture is added.
Now I run into this thread....mentioning the pros' preference for paper tapes.
What to do.
Alan
I've never seen a cieling repair to your particular situation last. It always seems to crack someplace else. Consider strapping and adding a layer of gyproc to the cieling. Add cornice or trim instead of taping the corners and save yourself alot of time, work and mess.
sometimes board sometimes knot
Thanks for the reply.
Strapping/layer of gyproc is a tempting alternative but not feasible in our situation. Want to preserve every bit of the ceiling height.
As an alternative, I may consider putting up some box beams across the ceiling width (in the livingroom/dining area) as support and help prevent/postpone the return of the cracks.
I do like the idea of trim for the corners.
Sometimes I think ceiling cracks in plaster is part of life, sooner or later.
Alan
Aye, just like the seasons, keeps on a changin...
sometimes board sometimes knot
we use fg on the tapered seams and paper on buts and corners you end up with more mud with fg so your buts always end up higher