i got alot of welding equpiment in my shop. oxygen, actylene, argon, nitrogen . Big bottles, many big bottles.
question, Do I need some hazmat decals on my door just in case of fire.
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If you have a fire in your garage, do you want them to come in and try to put it out? Do you think they'll be more aggressive or more cautious if they see hazmat stickers on your door?
Are you kidding me?
Look at any tanker trucks driving down the road. Notice those placards on them? Stating propane, gas, or oil. Those aren't there any reason.
If you have enough explosives or combustibles in your garage , first off they should be in a metal cabinet.....that's for your own personal information unless you want to risk losing your shop. 2nd, if we, meaning fire fighters , and yes I am a volunteer, see a placard or sticker in any case, we now know what's inside meaning....
A. the POSSIBLE cause
B. the danger of what's inside...meaning we can or should change our plan of attack instead of rushing in and risk losing someone.
C. and when fighting a fire where chemicals such as , excuse my spelling i'm not a welder, oxy acetylene are present, the worst thing you want to do if that tank is leaking is ventilate the building immediately forcing oxygen into the room/building in the company of an open flame. ( such as the case of your car smoking under the hood..open that hood and rush fresh oxygen in the area? not good....Three things are needed for a fire to start or to keep going...HEAT FUEL and OXYGEN
D. common sense I guessThats not a blemish....we call that character
"If you have a fire in your garage, do you want them to come in and try to put it out? Do you think they'll be more aggressive or more cautious if they see hazmat stickers on your door"
I'm a volunteer firefighter.... not that the volunteer part matters, and the majority of firefighters in this country are volunteers. Anyway, do you think I want to know that you have bottled explosive gases in your building in the event that I'm there on a fire? Do you think firefighters should expose themselves to injury and death trying to put out a fire in your welding shop?? Of course put the frickin' placards on the door. Let us know we should stay as far away from your building as possible if you have a fire. Buy insurance, and plan on rebuilding if you're unfortunate enough to have a fire.
Must be a bunch of foundation savers where they are from....if they are not willing to place precautionary stickers on their doorways then it must not be worth saving.
Glad they don't live by me. better yet, glad they're not on the FD near me.Thats not a blemish....we call that character
Anyway, do you think I want to know that you have bottled explosive gases in your building in the event that I'm there on a fire.
That was the question. I myself would want to know whats in there. The bottles themselves are not the danger. The bldg is metal. no insulation hardly any wood. no kids, no animals. It basically a pretty safe bldg as is. no where close to house. no chemicals, no paint stored in bldg. just the tank, seven of them. I figure I could pick up some decals at the welding shop tomorrow, I gotta go there anyway. figure a fireman might like to know. shop too little for spinkaler or to separe bottle and chain. there on a cart so they always moving.
basically i do not have to do anything. just figure the fire dept might want to know just in case. The lawnmower gas can is more dangous than the bottle.
This guy should show this thread to his insurance man....they'd drop him like a bag of dirt.
I don't think you are required, but please think about the safety of the firefighters. We (they) didn't start the fire, but you are asking us to risk our lives to save a few replaceable material possessions. I would consider this common sense. I think it's great that you were concerned enough to post the question.
The fact that there are hazardous materials in the building will only change the avenue of attack for the fire dept., not the desire to put the fire out.
Hook
Member Coon Valley Fire & Rescue
Worked in a chemical plant in mich...flammable/pressurized gas was stored in a separate building, actually a small enclosed storage space with an outside entrance.
Biggest concern of the Fire Dept was that the tall tanks have a chain arround them to keep them from falling over and knocking the valve off.
I only read the post after the initial quetion.....couldn't keep reading without replying but you also made some important points. Thanks
Thats not a blemish....we call that character
If your shop is at home, you might scare the neighbors with hazmat signage. A nice metal "Welding Shop" sign should give the firemen proper notice and the mile high balls of flame should give them a location.
I'd ask your local guys. If nothing else, they may appreciate the fact that you're concerned about them.
And they may have their own ideas about what they'd like you to do.
Everything goes over your head. You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.
So what kind of fire dept? As in what kind of experience will they have?
Rural or urban? Speak with the chief or captain and invite them and the Lt over for a look around. As the other poster mentioned have the cylinders chained upright. Seperate the fuels from the OXY, by 6' or as much as you can. Limit combustibles, scrap wood, debris and junk. Tidy places burn not as much. Seperate the welding area from the rest with concrete to contain sparks. If you can afford a sprinkler system so much the better, but you need a robust water supply.
My fire dept are rural voluntees, high school drop out, fireman wannbe.
sprinkler system- out of question
chaining bottles - nope not gonna do it
seperate bottle- nope wrong answer
The two in use are strap to my welding cart, one more strap to the mig cart. They could be anyplace in the shop or outside the shop. Those not in used has safety caps on them.
No metal cabinet- not gonna do it.
only thing I will do is add decals to the door or not.
the metal cabinet idea isn't mandatory...just a precaution use it or don't. As for your FD volunteers, if it's true..whose leading these drop-outs? My point was to answer the question of should someone put hazmat stickers or placards on their door for fireman safety.. I say Yes, gave some reasons (my opinion) agree or don't that's fine.
only thing I will do is add decals to the door or not.
just thinking out loud...welders near me make 75 per hour. give or take a couple bucks. My advice, not for your safety or anything, get the stickers. If your going through a slow period which we all do, I'll send someone the $ 6.00 for the decal.
This is not aimed at just one person. More at anyone who is willing to try and save a life of a VOLUNTEER firefighter drop-out or not.
One other question for those with flammables or explosives in their shop/garage (not counting gas for the lawn mower)....Is your shop attached to your house? If so do you have a firedoor?.............GOT KIDS.......Some might want to think twice about a metal cabinet.
this is a revised copy.....Thats not a blemish....we call that character
For the record, I would say you nailed it. At least the poster is concerned enough, but what about the thousands of other shops and garages with possibly even worse hazards. In a perfect would we know what is in every structure and vehicle before the call comes in. I guess this thread isn't about putting out fires and helping people. I'll put in my vote again for the sticker on the door.
I'm in the upper midwest. I guess we could get together with a bunch of other redneck, beer-guzzlin' fire fighter wannabees and cruise the country with a shidload of stickers and lots of beer looking for shops that may need stickers on the door! Apparently volunteer fire fighters are only good for saving basements and rolling up hoses!
Edited 7/28/2004 11:49 pm ET by Hook
We have a town department and a county department and a mutual aid agreement. Only a couple of paid firefighters and almost never have overnighters sleeping at the house. We have a good record of saving stuff that's called in promptly. But.... if you wake up at 4 AM and notice that your garage is fully involved because you left 8 electric heaters plugged into one extension cord and you're 13 miles from town and another mile down a dirt road and you don't have a pond.... yeah, we'll come and save the foundation for you. I make no apologies for that. We're not paid to sleep in the house with our gear next to the bunk. We throw on yesterday's clothes in the middle of the night to speed into town and answer pages. I've risked my #### along with a lot of other vols to save a lot of people's stuff, gone into potential hazmat situations, worked myself until my vitals were unreadably high, etc. If people want more then they can damn well approve a levy to support a career department. And... stop doing so much shiddy construction with exposed substandard wiring and poorly installed woodstoves and shidloads of solvents and propane cylinders in the garage.
Sorry to cuss... y'all got me going there.
Support your fire department. Without it you would not be able to get a mortgage.
Please don't take my commentary as a true representation of how I feel about fire departments, volunteer or full time. My last post was intended as a caricature of BrownBagg's seeming estimation of his local fire service. His first post seemed to express a genuine concern for general fire safety with a more focused question asking about the utility of signage warning of hazards present.
Evidently I overestimated his more general concern. Basic protections, even ones seemingly widely accepted by small welding shops, seem beyond the scope of his desires. Not my call to make. Hopefully this shop is not attached to the main house. I hope he never has reason to regret any lack of preparation.
With very few exceptions, they are not saints, I have no complaints to make of any firemen/women or departments I have encountered. Volunteers particularly. Even discounting that they are unpaid, under equipped and tired from other work they work very hard. That so much is done so well for so little pay or recognition is a minor miracle.
I agree. More should be done to support, equip and train the firefighters. Too often the same folks complaining about the lack of fire department effectiveness and the cost of insurance also groan and bitch at thought of adding a one mil property tax to finance the fire department. So it goes.
my first post on this subject had nothing to do with saving equpiment, voulteer redneck fire dept, sprinkler system or welding safety. it was only a simple question.
as a courtesy, would the fire dept like to know that tanks are inside.
The post was about nothing else but the question.
simple answer..go by DOT rules..placard as if it was in transport.
Is Argon not a shielding gas? and not flamm? I ain't sure, just axeing...
And BTW, I don't shave everyday, I drink beer, and have a tooth missing...I guess I'd let er burn if I read this and was a M.V.F.D. responder.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Argon is inert, but even inert gases in high pressure tanks can get exciting, either because of heat or mechanical damage.
Well hell. In that case the FD would have to be able to read so nothing more informative than a skull and cross bones would make any sense to them. Even then they likely would think that it's a clubhouse for pirates. They would go home and dig up an eye patch and parrot to fit in. These would just be the finishing touches. Most have the bad teeth, five days growth of beard and missing limbs already. Arrrrrrr.
The red-neck firemen are just going to drink beer and take turns pissing on the blaze anyway so no loss either way. In the event of a fire best plan is to break out the weenies and beer and make a cook out of it. Exploding tanks will just add to the excitement.
Don't know about the sign thing. You might talk to the local fire department. Most use a computerized database where they can make notes of special situations or conditions.
I had a guy I worked with who had a disabled relative who spent most of her time in a back bedroom. He contacted the fire department and the chief came out to look at the situation. He inserted a notice that a disabled person was present and on oxygen and instructions on which window to go through to get to her directly. If a unit was dispatched to the address this information would come up and be reported to them on the way there. Might save a life.
Similarly if your tanks were consistently stored in one location the firemen might be better off knowing where this is. Making sure the tanks are strongly fastened upright could save worry. I understand that these tanks feed a fire but the greatest danger is if the overpressure plugs blow or the necks crack and the tank takes off like a cruise missile.
I have seen one shop that had a sprinkler system to help keep the tanks cool. This could be activated from outside, it was clearly marked, and had a fire department outlet for additional volume over what the normal water main could provide. The tanks were in a lean-to type enclosure off the main building, separated by a poured block wall, and he had installed the simple and light roof in such a way as to allow any explosion to go up and away from the rest of the building.
Flammable liquids were in a factory mutual rated cabinet outside the shop. The vents on this would close automatically. This would likely smother the flames. It also had easily removable plugs, sized for a fire nozzle, that allowed the fire department to flood the unit with water or foam.
All this might be a bit much, the shop I'm talking about was owned by an ex-fireman, but it is something to consider.
FWIW, I vote with the "contact the local fire department and let them know" contingent.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.