My tiling experience has been to do one bathroom floor over hardy backer over plywood subfloor. The orginal subfloor was rotted (mud job) and I replaced it. THAT IS MY TILE EXPEERIENCE.
And I have installed 2 cheap, all plastic show units. THT IS MY EXPERIENCE WITH SHOWERS.
But I have a client “twisting my arm” to rebuild his.
I told him that I *THOUGHT* that I could do one. But felt uncomfortable one for the first time and would like to do one for a friends rental houses or mine first.
My background is that I am semi-retired, but not from construction so I don’t other people to recommend to him.
But he still wants me to do it.
He is a very good client, but all of the stuff that I have done for him have been T&M no questions asked. But they have all been small stuff. Might have hit $1000 on one job, but most are $250-500.
So he might want an “estimate” and I have no idea at all where to start.
DETAILS
The house is about 10-15 yo. I don’t know if it was a custom or spec. But it is in a an upscale area, all houses different, and upscale house. But the bathroom and kitchen are fairly “plain”. Laminate countertops in the kitchen. Cultured marble basin/top in the bathroom. And basic chrome Delta fixtures.
The shower is 30×60 with a plastic base. Plain sq tile on the walls. The only thing “special” about it has a tiled seat in the back. It is built up and and not just a shelf. So I don’t know how that was done over the plastic base.
And plain bypass doors.
Nothing that is not commonly available at the home horror stores.
And I would expect that the new one is similar. No stone, not fancy tile work. And I KNOW that I won’t even attempt a tile base at this time.
The biggest unknow is how to do the seat. It can’t be wall to wall. as the one side is the door. And I don’t know how the orginal one went down to the plastic. So I am guessing one with trangular support or a corner shelf.
While I want to do a good job I also need something that is “easy” for the first time user. From what I have heard the liquid applied water proofers are not easy.
That means either hardy over builders felt or kerdi. I am not sure of learning all of the details needed for keri in time.
And while kerdi is more water resistant than a hardi/felt that I think that if the grout is sealed that it should make a servicable unit and last much longer than the current one.
I have about 4 days to figure out how and what. Then the client will be out of town for 2 weeks so I don’t have to worry aobut keeping have them hear me scream “I can’t believe I just screwed this up again”.
WHAT SAY YOU?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Replies
Bill,
If the new shower is going to be the same design as the existing,,,,
why is he re-doing it? Is it just 15 years old and looking it?
I think you should go for it. IMO, the fact that it has a plastic "base" takes some of the pressure off a first time shower builder, and I'm sure you can work out the details w the seat.
Hopefully the folks also have another bath in the house. Again, less pressure on you.
Have fun. Harry
Well I did not bother to go into the problems, thought that it was long enough.The client called because he had water dripping from the area of the pipes that feed the shower in the basement When I saw it there was no sign of water or of water tracks. In the same bay is what I am assuming a vent pipe, but it is on an inside wall, but what change someplace in the attic. And we had very heavy rains last last night so I maybe a little leaked around the vent pipe and ran down.Several bays over there was some signs of darking of the subfloor, but not much.So I ran the shower thinking that maybe it was from the shower head or valve.So water shows up. So I go back and look at the show. I see water coming from under the show door. And in anohter place damp grout on the floor.But them I look across and saw the bottom 2 rows tented and lots of caulk.I am guess that it was done on a green board base.After talking awhile and going back to get the ladder the water was starting to show around the one supply line..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
As usuall on this site, look at all the ideas you have recieved.These jobs can get expensive fast. In no time at all,,,, it can make more sense to re do the whole bathroom.I passed on a similar situation last year. Howevwer, these folks were not past clients, and seemed really uptight.H
The main question is about whether *I* should do this or not.Now this is an alcove with just the toilet so it would be possible to replace that floor also, if there was a real need.AFAIK, from past experience, that within reason money is not a question.But based on what is their and what other things in the house they are not looking for anything significantly different or to completely remodel.And if they do then I know that I am not interested. .
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
So you are basically demoing the whole shower, walls, base, and doors, and going back with new backer, tile, new shower base, and new doors?
Can you redesign the shower--maybe build out the wall 12" and then you could have a shelf span the 36" versus a triangle shelf. Then you could do a different glass door--frameless?
Since you don't have to worry about a tiled base I would think the hardi/tarpaper route would be okay--it's basically like doing a bathtub surround. Just do the flanges right and your golden. Also make sure the shelf/bench slopes away from the wall so water doesn't collect toward the back.
Kohler has some shower bases that are cast iron.
"So you are basically demoing the whole shower, walls, base, and doors, and going back with new backer, tile, new shower base, and new doors?"Yes.Maybe not a new base. But I would have to be sure that the old one is good and whatever they did with the seat did not mess up the base."Can you redesign the shower--maybe build out the wall 12" and then you could have a shelf span the 36" versus a triangle shelf. Then you could do a different glass door--frameless?"That is an interesting concept. But existing tile floor that is not being replaced and I need to keep things lined up. And I would have to tile an outside corner. More complexities. The existing walls are all flat and the only corners are inside and only bullnose (and 2 bullnose corners) are need for trim.And I don't see how you would do a shelf seat, rather than a builtup seat.To do a shelf you would need a 60" base and how would the wall meet up with the base on the inside.It will have a lip on 3 sides. On the outside it has a "curb". Thus you would either need to cut notch in the base or build the wall on the outside of the curb. In either case a water proofing problem. (But with the shelf it probably won't get much water, STILL I am concerned.)And if I did a buildup seat then the wall comes out at the seat and use a 36" pan. More problems waterproofing the seat.More complexity and mission creep that I want to get into on my first job..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I thought you could get a shower pan with a lip on all four sides so that you could do a tiled curb, but I misread the drawings of the Kohler one I looked at.
I found this looking around--may be helpful--looks like what you want to do, minus the Swanstone.
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1327539828068713188QeouFD
Yes, that picture is exactly the basic style of what I am talking about..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Given your penchant for googling you should have found this by now:
http://johnbridge.com
If you do your own tile base research the term pre-slope thoroughly.
Having done a few in recent years, and many in years past, it is not that hard as long as you are methodical about it.
As for the seat, look at this product:
http://aquafit-usa.com/stock_mats.htm
WHAT SAY YOU?
I say go for it. Between here and the John Bridge forum you have all the resources you need to do it. I haven't done one yet myself but have done lots of other tile jobs, and none are too hard if you take the time to follow instructions and set up your substrate properly.
Other than that it's just cut and paste!
I wish my excel spreadsheets were as easy as tiling ;-)
Bill,
I'd be more than happy to give you as much advice as I can offer you verbally.
Much to slow this way.
If you email me I will send you my phone # and we can talk all you want.
Eric
[email protected]
[email protected]
Thanks. If I do this I will take you up on that..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ya always remember the first time <G>
Followed by a whole lot of wishing you had done it different.
Personally, I like the no hassle of no shower doors. Design it so you don't need them. And it's really not too hard to do. So ... if you start w/ a custom pan ... consider it. No door expense, hardware, or hassles in the future. 3 full sides and then a partial high wall w/ some glass block and then an opening. I've one in my master bath/bed. The bedroom is carpeted ... never been an issue. And I love it. Just my opinion. Seems like every shower door I've seen, I haven't really liked (except when you see them in the show room).
Bill -It's been a long, bad day. Please forgive my grammer and spelling. I think you are way, far too hard on yourself ( a longstanding situation). Stop thinking and start doing. If I can do it, you can too. (If you want to talk, holler!!!)
Don K.
I just did one from scratch in my new house ... used the Fine Homebuilding article as my base guide. Did the base, the hardi ... everything but the tile itself ... ran outta time. If you don't fully float the tile base (i.e. you use only hardiboard), it is my understanding that the weak point is the corners between adjoining tile ... an architect advised me to match caulk those. I had a tub surround that I did w/ a narrow shelf ... the outside corner opened up big time (grout only), so I cleaned it up and went back in w/ matching silicone caulk.
I'm convinced the corners are the weak link. I'm not convinced I know how to handle it the right way. Full floating may resolve this (but conceptually, I'm not convinced of that as even a full concrete surround can easily develop some stress cracks, I would think).
I think the pan prep is fairly straight forward ... and clearly THE most critical part of the shower.
Bill, you could definately do this, especially if you can get the HO to agree to do a Kerdi shower. (Which is better all around, IMHO.) The trickiest part is the base, and with Kerdi, that isn't all that tricky. Spend some time over at John Bridge forum and you'll get the hang of it. I bought his book that pretty much lays it all out. I'll never need to use it again, so if you want it, I'll send it to ya.
As for a bench, look here. Easy as pie. http://www.aquafit-usa.com/betterbench.htm
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
bill,i can't tell ya to jump in or not,but to let you know that you can do as good as a pro.
sil hires a pro tile guy to do her bath,mud base,does a cement [stucco type] walls with a glass wall on one side.
base has waves in it that will hold 1/2" of water instead of draining,there were 2 holes in the corners,[but they hit those with a little silicone!]the tops of the 2 cement walls were off 1" where they meet in the corners, and the best part was the glass brick wall it was out of plumb 1 3/8" one way and leaned 1" they other way!the floor tile was miss cut by 3/4",no problem thats what grout was for.this is what 15k buys including a countertop also[it looks pretty good].last i heard they were tearing out the floor and wall and redoing,but you know how that goes.
oh,did i mention i reccomended this guy!i don't think i'm going to be invited over for dinner soon...........
this is the stuff people have done and when this guy found you and knows you'll do your best is why he wants you to do the bath,he trusts you. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
It sounds like you are worrying about the right things so I'd say it would be a good learning project.
Many good, long lasting seats are made with pressure treat 2x with a little slope away from the wall. Most pressure treat is really wet and shrinks a great deal, so pick stuff that's dry. Run the seat clear down to the pan if possible since it simplifies life, but that would require something like cultured marble pan or mud pan.
Think of waterproofing the seat like anything else--water flows downhill, water will eventually get in past the grout, and if it's behind the tile will need a way to get out.
You could do a lot worse than ice and watering the 2x seat and working it into the wall waterproofing. Hardi the seat just like the wall.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I used the "BetterBench" in my shower. Fairly easy, and no complaints so far (about 4 years). They advertise in FHB I think. Expands to fit up to 60" or 72" I think. I have an extra support I'll send you for free it you want to go that route. The bench just fastens through the cement board to the wall studs, and then you fill it with deck mud (dry pack mortar) and tile it.
Have you looked at the Kerdi shower project on Breaktime?
Hey Bill, go spend $10 at johnbridge.com and buy the Kerdi Shower E-Book. It's awesome and will tell you everything you need to know about Kerdi and built in benches.You can totally do it...and do it with Kerdi. After doing three Kerdi showers, I will never do it any other way.
I had been planing on a corner BB. I did not know that they made a "wall to wall" model.Aqualfit's web site is not that well laid out. Clicked on a picture that showed "Better bench™ with soap stone slab" (wall to wall) and then it showed the corner bench.Finaly found that if you went down the bottom of the first page it had the description and price of the adjustable bench.But could not find any details about installing. Found the manufacture.http://www.innoviscorp.com/better-bench.phpBut they don't have anything either. A little bit on the corner units, but "coming" for the expandable bench.Unless the shower is redisgned and done with a mud base instead of the plastic pan then I will only have support for one end of the bench. I am going to call them in a couple of hours to see if they recommend an open end with a support."Have you looked at the Kerdi shower project on Breaktime?"I saw Mongo's shower when he posted it. If I do this I will go through it in detail..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill--
Go for it. But go to your local tile dealer first and get a copy of the Schlüter Kerdi-drain instructional CD-ROM. (Possibly it's available on the Schlüter website if you on a broadband connection.)
This shows very clearly and simply how to build a shower from the ground up. It ain't rocket science; it's patience and practise. The hardest part is mudding the bed with an even slope; you don't have to do that 'cause now you can buy a pre-sloped bed pan. Simplifies things immensely.
Oh, one more thing: Rent or buy a good wet saw for the tiling. I have done countless tile jobs with just a snapper and a nibbler, but having a good wet saw makes it sooooo much easier and enables you to do mitre cuts and arcs and stuff you just can't snap.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The support thing I have (I got it just in case we needed a center support) can be used as a corner "bench", but just to put a foot on for shaving or as a shelf.If you want it, send me a mailing address. I think it is about 12" to 16" on the long edge (I can't spell hypotenuse).
I am looking at the picture.http://www.innoviscorp.com/better-bench.phpIt is same as the 17" (front edge) shelf. But with holes in it. I guess to better hold mud in a veritical position.If I went with the corner I would get the 30".But I left a message yesterday say that I would do it, depending on what they wanted done, but also wanted to meet with the wife. And have not heard back.So I am on hold right now..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm pretty sure it is the BT-17S that I have. Picked one up just in case my bench exceeded 36" (we didn't even come close). It can be used as a shelf or as a support. It might even be a BT-17, as I have had it for 4 years, and they may not have made the "modified" version back then.If you want it, let me know. It's yours for the asking.Anyway, we're pleased with our bench. It is nice to have no supports underneath to get in the way of cleaning.
Well it looks like a it is going to be a plastic unit.The wife does not want to mess with tile again. Rather have the monolithic plastic. Easier to clean..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, Can't help with most of your problem.
I can tell you I did my own bathroom, full gut, 5 years ago and it's still good. It is do able for someone with skills but no experience!
As to your bench problem, we bought this for my in-laws last year and they love it.
http://www.frontgate.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=13357
buic
Edited 9/4/2008 2:40 pm ET by BUIC