Most of the information I find on fixing doors out of square address adjusting the DOOR to fit the frame. But what if the FRAME is not square?
In my case, it appears that the head jamb is way out of level, with the hinge side a full 5/8†lower than the latch side. To make matters worse, I’m sure this condition changes with the seasons. In the summer, I believe the difference is less than the current winter conditions. This house is only about 12 years old, and this door has been a problem from the start (though I’m sure it is getting worse).
This is our bedroom door, and my wife insists that we need to be able to close and lock the door to keep the children out. (Can you sense my urgency?)
How can this be fixed? Is this something I can do (I’m only moderately handy), or is it a job for a professional carpenter? There are three other doors, in the same general area (head of the stairs) that exhibit similiar problems, though none as dramatic as this door.
Thanks for any guidance you can provide,
Jim Maher
Replies
Fixing a door like the one you describe, is a job that can frustrate the best of us. If, as you say, you are only marginally handy, then you should probably call a pro.
The biggest challenge for this door will be to somehow isolate it from the seasonal movement problems that you mention. (I'm thinking that slotted holes for screws, instead of finish nails, might do the trick. Won't be easy, what with shims and all.)
If the seasonal movement is not truly an issue, then this should be a fairly normal door frame R&R. Take off the trim, cut the nails holding the frame to the studs. Reset it so that it is level and plumb, then shim it and nail it. Finally, re-fit and hang the trim. (All this assumes that the stud walls on either side are plumb and coplaner.)
Seasonal movement is definitely an issue, and I believe it is getting worse over time.
The door frame fix you describe is something I could do, but maybe I shouldn't try.
I do have the trim off one side of the door. The stud wall on the latch side does NOT appear to be plumb. Also, there are no shims at all on the latch side jamb or the head jamb. There are huge gaps between the latch side jamb and the corresponding stud (as much as 3/4") and between the head jamb and the header (as much as 1-1/16"). I would have guessed that there should have been filler wood in those gaps.
So, go to a pro, eh?
Jim
Hey Jim,
I've framed in, hung, and hardwared thousands of doors and I have to tell you this stuff you have described needs a good doorman to fix.
With all the problems you describe the best bet is to get a good residential interior carpenter to come in and do some "discovery" work for you. This pro will check out the door frame, walls, ceilings, floors, etc... and figure out what is moving where and why.
You need an experienced person with the right tools and experience to handle this. After the pro figures out what he is facing he can then give you some $ numbers and alternatives to fixing your problems.
Best bet is to break out the old yellow pages, and get in contact with locals in your area. Be up front with them on the magnitude of the symptoms of your problems that they will be looking at and feel them out as to whether or not they will send a man out to your house, figure out all the problems and then give you a free estimate for this work.
By being up front on the first contact you can save a lot of wasted time and a lot of grief. Tell them you need the door/frame situation fixed but that you know there may be more to it than just "tweaking" one opening. This way whoever schedules a journeyman/foreman/estimator to come out and get a handle on this will know it may take more than just a couple of minutes and up front knows they are probably handing you a "gimme" of portal to portal windshield time plus about an hour or so of on site "discovery", plus time to put estimate together.
Good Luck,
Cork in Chicago
I'm puzzled why a door would be significantly worse seasonally? Is there soil under the foundation that's expanding and shrinking? I mean, I've hung dozens of doors and never, not once, had one have a "seasonal" problem of any significance, more than perhaps 1/8".
Aside from that, I agree on the door R&R. But first find out why the frame is so racked, it may indicate some settling. You may find that a pier has settled and fixing THAT problem may fix your door.
I can't say that there is more than 1/8" seasonal movement. This is the first time I've taken off the trim and looked at the situation. All I can say for sure is what I see now, and that I'm aware that there IS seasonal movement. I've never actually measured from one season to another.
There is a full basement beneath the house, and there are no siginificant visble cracks in either the poured concrete basement walls or the basement floor (there is one lengthy crack in the basement floor, but even at it's widest point it's not even 1/16").
I will try to find someone to come take a look.
Thanks,
Jim
> I'm puzzled why a door would be significantly worse seasonally? Is
> there soil under the foundation that's expanding and shrinking? I
> mean, I've hung dozens of doors and never, not once, had one have a
> "seasonal" problem of any significance, more than perhaps 1/8".
When our house was brand new there was some movement, presumably due to the wood drying, that affected a few doors. Plus at least one door simply wasn't securely anchored on the hinge side and sagged.
I'm puzzled why a door would be significantly worse seasonally?
That was a puzzler for me too, but I have seen it happen in a house that I owned. In my case, the door would rub on the floor during the summer months, and would not rub during the winter months.
In my case, the door frame was -- as in this thread -- significantly out of level.
The out of level condition, in my case, was due to unequal settling of separate foundation sections. One side of the door frame depended on one foundation, the other on another.
But the floor rubbing problem was due to a minor (almost imnperceptable) buckle in the flooring.
As for the seasonal movement in this thread, I think it lends even more credence to Piffin's guess. If the loaded side of the door frame lies between floor joists, and the floor system is just a bit soft -- then it might be even softer during the humid times.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
I was thinking that maybe ground water could be moving the post to beam down under.
But the vast number of guesses maxe here are all good ones and point out the variety of things that can be wrong and need fixing.
which is why a competant, knowledgeable, person on site is needed.
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On one of the This Old House segments, not sure which one. Ask..., Inside..., or original recipe last weekend Tommy Silva had one just like this. The doors were giving problems, went to basement and at least three of the steel columns had rusted at the base allowing a sag and potential collapse. They were not really on footers but in the floor and not poured with cement. Did a tap test with hammer and you could tell that they were not as they should be. Surely with a newer house they would not do this. They cut floor, poured real footers and new columns.
But really sounds like poor attempt to install pre-hung door.
If you're in Chicago, I'm in Joliet . . .
There is a finish carpenter who lives down the street, but I know he wants nothing to do with framing work.
Guess I'll look around.
Thanks,
Jim
I lived in Joliet for a while. Didn't like it much, though.
I lived on Walsh street, just south of St. Ray's Cathedral.I always thought music was more important than sex-then I thought if I don't hear a concert for a year-and-a-half it doesn't bother me. [Jackie Mason]
I will suggest , go get the trim carp. down the street, have him "fix' your door. Then, you can start your "visual " testing, of settlement, at that door, and note the conditions of the other doors/drywall cracks, etc. While your carp. is there, ask him to have a look see, telling him all that you have read, do not hold any info back. Good Luck,, Jim J
The lack of shims may be a big part of the problem. In particular, if a hinge side isn't properly shimmed it will tend to "kick out" over time and allow the door to sag. A competent carpenter would have inserted shims and nailed/glued them in place to assure they didn't move. But not all carpenters are competent.
The gaps sizes you describe are a bit on the wide side, but not enormous. I usually try to trim them out a little tighter, but then I usually end up having to chisel out a little bit somewhere to get things to fit right.
But you should investigate the cause for the movement before undertaking any major fixup.
Well, I've replaced a couple of exterior doors on old construction, and the opening has NEVER been square and level. On an exterior door it's most important to get a good even fit all around, and for the threshold to be reasonably flush with the floor. So basically you square the door to the floor (perhaps with a little fudging), vs making it plumb. To make the door seal properly, you may also end up pushing a corner of the doorframe out a little, so that the doorframe is flat, even if the surface of the house isn't.
The problem you describe with your door, though, is worse than just a door not fitting right. You've got serious foundation problems that you need to tend to.
However, if the situation isn't changing radically from season to season, the correct approach to fix the door would be to remove the door frame and reinstall it plumb and square. This would imply a lot of shimming here and there, and possibly the need to chisel out a bit of the rough opening to allow it to fit correctly. Of course, if the framing keeps shifting with the seasons, the door will eventually get racked again.
What type of house? Is the door in question in the vicinity of a weight bearing wall? Usually near the center of the house. Is the floor out of level in this area also? If any of these questions are the case it is possible (likely) that the house has settled or sagged near the door. It might be possible (likely) to jack up the framing/floor from the basement where the sag or settling has occured. This could fix the problem completely and permanently. The seasonal movement is probably normal and marginal.
This is a frame house, sided.
Yes, this door is directly adjacent to the head of the central stairway of the house, on the second floor (I assume the pierced wall is weight-bearing).
Yes, the floor is also out of level in this area. On the second floor, across the same doorway, the hinge side of the floor appears to be 7/16" lower than on the latch side. On the first floor, the floor is also out of level, but less so.
There is a steel I-beam in the basement just about immediately below where the latchside jamb of this door is (i.e., the center of the house).
I'm a bit afraid of the idea of jacking up the entire frame. The only drywall cracking we've ever noticed IS in this general area, but not actually at this doorway (i.e., at a bedroom doorway across the stairs from and perpendicular to this doorway and at a bathroom doorway immediately perpendicular to this doorway).
In any event, I believe I'm outta my league. Who do I need to call, a general contractor?
"steel I-beam in the basement" - and is there a column supporting the beam mid-span? I have seen columns set without a footer and just a little concrete poured around them.
There are actually a total of four lally columns, at the four corners of the stairway opening. The central beam of the house rests on two of these (about 4' apart).
I watched the house being built, so I know that there are solid footings under each of these lally columns.
Jim, I re-read your original post. If I read it right, with the hinge side lower than the latch side, the door should close and possibly leave a gap on the latch side at the top. Possibly the latch won't latch because the plunger is too low for the hole in the jamb.
If this is the case, and you've ruled out foundation issues, the quick fix is to cut the nails on the latch side, cut off 3/4" from the bottom of the latch side jamb, and then nail it back in place with the header fitting the door. Be sure to use some shims this time on the latch side jamb.
You should expect to see shims on the jambs whenever there's a gap of any size, at least at the top, bottom and center of the jamb. I've never shimmed the header of a single width interior door, and wouldn't expect to see shims there. (I don't recall even putting a nail in a header).
Edited 3/5/2004 2:35:56 PM ET by GeoffH
Yes, you're right. The door does close, with a 5/8" gap at the latch side between the top of the door and the door jamb. And you're right, the plunger is too low for the hole in the strike plate.
The fix you describe sounds like a fix I could do (though I'll have some touch up painting to do afterwards). I do NOT believe I have any sort of serious foundation problems (but what do I know),
Is it worth a try, then just wait and see what develops?
Jim
Jim, see the attached drawing in the next post.
I strongly suspect that you have a few things going on here. There is no way that this door should be giving you so much troyuble or to have settled out so much in only twelve years. Something has to be wrong in the framing or foundatin. That means that anything you do with the door will only be a temporary fix.
My instincts lead me to believe that this door is in a load bearing wall similat to what I have drawn here. If you will notice where I shown down pointing arrows, you will see that the leg framing of the door does not land over a floor joist. It is far too common for carpenters to fail to place blocking in under the wall at that position to share the load and transfer it tro the beam and thence to the near post. That will cause the phywood subfloor to deflect downward under the roof load transfering to the thin plywood.
if I am right, you need to jack it up there at the point of deflection and get solid blocking properly hooked in. A trim specialist may not know what he is doing in such a case. He would only fix the door itself without diagnosing the cause. He would be like a doctor who prescribes a few pain pills and doesn't check to notice that the reason you have pain is from a broken ankle.
Since this door is on the second floor, you might have to open a section of ceiling to take care of it, but since you report deflection in the lower floor too, there are probably multiple problems being compounded. You need a good framing carpenter or all-around carpenter to size this up for you because I can imagine another dozen scenarios that could be causing the trouble.
Alignment of all these parts in relation to one another, the beam, and it's suport can be effecting the seasonal thing. There are so many variables that I really don't think you can get accurate and definitive advice for a long term fix from us here, simply because we can't wander around the hopuse and check out load paths etc.
But good luck with it.
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Edited 3/5/2004 3:52:20 PM ET by piffin
Framing seems a more probable cause than foundation problems, and your drawing might well represent the situation (when we bought, we wondered how we were getting so much house for the money).
I do hope that the problem can be resolved with minimal disruption to the rest of the house. I don't mind if we take off some drywall in our bedroom, provide a fix, then replace the drywall. We're redecorating the master anyway. But, I'd prefer not to disrupt the first floor - where we've just finished redecorating.
However, the bottom line seems to be that I can only speculate on causes and possible solutions until I get a framing carpenter out to do a proper diagnosis.
The boss won't be happy, but she'll be glad I didn't just start trying to fix it without getting advice.
Thanks,
Jim
forgot to attach the drawing
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piffin, you may well be on the right track. I think, though, that odds are, this house, even if built 'wrong' has settled and flexed as much as it's gonna, and that the quick fix would get Jim back in the bedroom in one day.
This may well come from my recent experience of working on 100 yr old houses that are ALL out of plumb, square, and everything else. I figure, it's had 100 yrs to settle where it is, it isn't going to keep moving FOREVER, it's gotta stop somewhere.
Jim, I'd take a good hard look at piffin's drawing and see if it might fit your situation, and if it does, you're in for some work. But if you can't find a reason why it's out of whack, I say go for the quick fix. Worst case is that you'll have to go back and do the hard work in another 6 mos to a year, best case is there's nothing more to do.
> I figure, it's had 100 yrs to settle where it is, it isn't going to keep moving FOREVER ...
I did a little door fix for a friend. The house sat there for 39 years, then over perhaps a few hours to at most a couple days the latch side of the header came down maybe at most 1/8". We dusted off the top of the door to unstick it, and for 3 months so far it seems to be staying put.
My theory is that there might have been a small gap between the end of a stud or two and a plate. Then with 39 years to shrink and a little temporary load, maybe a walk on the roof, that gap got taken up. I do check it every time we visit.
-- J.S.
Before you do anything to the latch side, make sure that the hinge side is secure. Check the screws in the top hinge, and if they aren't long enough to actually go through and grab the stud behind the jam then take out two of them and replace them with about 4" long deck screws (pre-drilling holes through the jamb to clear the screws).
Tighten the screws until the hinge jamb is plumb (removing any shims in the way) or, if it seems more appropriate, drive more shims in at the bottom hinge to push the bottom out. Replace the shims when you're done, being sure to shim the bottom, so it doesn't get pushed out more. Secure the shims with glue or a few dabs of caulk.
Once the hinge side is plumb, you can work to make the top and latch side match it.
Interestingly, the hinge side jamb is also NOT shimmed, and the hinge screws do NOT extend to the stud. However, the hinge side jamb IS plumb.
Indeed, the door itself hangs plumb and level (actually, just ever so slightly high on the hinge side - but you really have to look at the level closely).
I can't say the hinge side is exactly "secure", but it's okay for the moment. When I do R&R the door frame, I'll mke sure we do the hinge side first - adding shims and long screws.
However, I'm coming to believe the best course of action is to find someone to stop by and take a look while I have the trim off. Even if I have to pay for the visit and the recommendation is to just R&R the frame, I'll sleep better.
Still hoping for the simple fix . . .
Jim
It might just be that you could simply rehang the door.
There are a lot of carpenters who hang them with no shims and do OK but too many of them who do it that way get careless and miss something.
I can imagine a scenario where they hung the door with a shim under the jamb leg on the hinge side to get it setting more or less plumb abd square and shot it full of nails, then whoever was doing the flooring came along and kicked the shim out because it was in the way. Then the whole weight of the door and jamb leg was hanging in the air with nothing holding it other than that handfull of 16GA nails or even light 18Ga wires. They were weak enough to let it slide down the wall, still in plumb condition but not elevated square anymore.
Your kids ever swing on the door?
Your wife hang the ironing over it?
You throw your work jacket up on it?
Let me count the pounds...
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Of course we're all trying to help you with your door through the explanation you have given us. However, from your original post......IF this is a pre-hung interior door (which it sounds like it is) I would:
1) Take a block of wood and place it up underneath at the top of the jamb on the hinge side and whack it with a hammer until the head is level.
2) Nail to secure frame in new position
3) Caulk joints at casing, jamb & wall
4) Lock the damn door and jump the wife
I realize most of you are probably taken aghast at step one, but let's not over engineer this project. If this is a pre-hung door it probably sagged 'cause of the house settling, lumber shrinkage and not being secured correctly in the first place. I've done this numerous times, it looks great and the problem is solved. If upon 'whacking' it with a hammer you meet much resistance, you may have to remove the casing to resolve. But 9 times out of 10, this job would take me about 5 minutes.
jocobe
- this ain't brain surgery ;-)
Oh Yeah, sure, the handyman method. The bigger the hammer, the faster you're done with the job.
But whatchagonna tell him when he has splinters all over the room and the head is separated from the legs?
( and I mean the jamb, not in the bed)
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LOL.....I'll do work for real estate agents, from time to time, and most of the time it works and it really does look OK........they really don't want me to spend too much time analyzing why a hollow-core, pre-hung door may not be swinging just right......they're paying me to resolve it ASAP.
jocobe
Hey JOCOBE,
I love your train of thought. Keep it simple! But you left out the part where you pop open a brewsky or mix up a drink as a reward for being so quick and clever and then jump the DW (or is SHE the reward)??
Anyway you certainly have the right way of going about it. :o)
Cork in Chicago
" you certainly have the right way of going about it."
sure, let's all start hanging wall cabs with finish nails too.
Let me check.
Yep, this is still the Fine Homebuilding forum. For a minute there I thought I had clicked on the wood butcher's scene.
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Geeesssss Piffin-
Take a break dude! The point I am trying to make is that the solution may be over engineered. Many times the simplest solution may be the best solution. Maybe the hollow core, pre-hung bedroom door is the victim of something that is going on three floors below.....or maybe it wasn't secured correctly in the first place. We don't know....we aren't there! We're just giving the guy options......
jocobe
- and I am not a fan of using finishing nails OR drywall screws to hang cabinets
Sure, that's an option.
but anybody using an option like that on one of my jobs will be leaving the job in a hurry.
Do you really think that a DIY is likely to be able to do what you suggest without ruining the jamb? What about those jambs that don't have a lock dado at the head joint? You solution would blast it right apart.
IF a simple jamb leg lift will do to take care of things, driving a wedge or shim under the bottom of the leg is the right way to do it, but that is only IF that is the right fix.
I understand about real estate agents and quick fixes.
I also get to come behind the big hammer repairts and do it right. Guess who is on the list for the good work and who is on the list for the cheap work. You define yourself by the work you do.
But that's just one opinion. You are welcome to yours.
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"Do you really think that a DIY is likely to be able to do what you suggest without ruining the jamb? What about those jambs that don't have a lock dado at the head joint? You solution would blast it right apart."
Bawahahahah.....Man this is rich...
So a DIY can't tap a jamb... but determining off set load bearing walls with posted detailed pics is within his scope????
Geeze this aint rocket science.... If the wall dropped 5/8" in the width of a door, wall board would have torn. Get a level check the ceiling then check the floor. If its flat and level ...tap the jamb... if it's too much for tappin, uninstall and reinstall the door.
Also how come know one is suspect of the level being used too check for plumb?
Is it grandads old mason level, also used to drive foundation stakes?
You guys crack me up with over engineering...thank god this aint a medical board or every headache would be getting an MRI.
"So a DIY can't tap a jamb... but determining off set load bearing walls with posted detailed pics is within his scope????"
I didn't see anything about tapping. I saw soimething about pounding, and the HO admitted being shy of doing too much, indicating his level of expertise. His speach is exactly like the DIYs I have known who call for help after totally ruining something. He asked for advice because he needed it. If he was the type to fix it with a big ole hammer, he would have already done that all alone without help from "professionals"
And if you took two minutes to read what I have written three times in this thread, I never indicated that understanding all the stuff about load bearing walls and foundation settlement was within his grasp. On the contrary, I was the one who pointed out that there are so many things that could be causing this problem that he needed someone there who could check it all out, to determine tha cause of the problem.
And if you think that anytime something settles and moves 5/8" there is always a crack in the wall board, you haven't seen too many settlement issues.
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> Also how come know one is suspect of the level being used too check for plumb?
I swear that the guy who built our house had a level that was off 1/8" in a foot. Anywhere you check, everything is off by exactly that amount, and not always in the same direction.
Are finish nails OK if you use a bunch of them?
Just be sure to use galvanized with white poainted and rusty ones for stain grade.
LOL
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Thats what I was thinking reading this post. If it isnt a structural problem meaning the joist arent supporting it like you discribed in another post, why not just get a pre hung and re hang it. it will save a lot of time fooling around adjusting the door.
BTW piffin I finally finished all those interior doors..hehehehe come to the TAV Ill buy ya one..In fact drinks for one and all are on me...
Darkworksite4:
Gancho agarrador izquierdo americano pasado que la bandera antes de usted sale
Edited 3/6/2004 2:05:03 PM ET by RonT
It's early yet, but what the heck, I just finished a long report with PDF drawings to a customer. Time to kick back, relax, and let the door swing open.
Now, if these were those batwing doors like in the Tavern, it would always swing freely. 'course, the kids...
Now that I think of it, my parents door was never closed - but I ended up with four yourger brothers.
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I suspect the door could be a solid core and pretty heavy. The sagging may be because the hinge screws are loose or the jamb has deformed under the weight. For a quick fix, remove the top hinge at the jamb and sink a 3" screw into the stud to suck it towards the stud. This will open a gap on the top of the latch side and raise the door at the strike plate a little. If the door is sticking near the top then this will often fix that problem. To raise the door near the top a little more if there is room you can drive a shim just above the bottom hinge. You have to remove the trim to do that though.