*
I believe it is very important to get good working drawings then providing a fixed price for my projects. As we all know forward planning leads to smooth project flow, value for money, and a good nights sleep (usually). The trouble is that not all the customers I meet know this and feel that paying the extra 1% that a good drawing may cost is an unessessary expense. My question to those out there with more experience is, what is more important; for me to develop a style of buisness practise which is consistant customer to customer developed from my experience where I see what is best and be used as a marketing tool, or should I develop a flexible style of buisness which can customize itself for each customer and their wishes. Will market area and population effect my style of business.
It breaks my heart to see waste, stress and inefficentcies caused by lack of forward planning. It is after watching this for fifteen year that I decided to get out on my own in the first place.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Skim-coating with joint compound covers texture, renews old drywall and plaster, and leaves smooth surfaces ready to paint.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
*
Hugh I have to agree with you about the drawings. I do some pretty high end finish work on occasion and the problem with not having a drawing for a mantle,newel,bult-in,etc., is that it leaves it open to YOUR interpretation of the finished product. The quality of the product at the end could be top notch but not exactly what the client had in mind. This has happened to me in the past and now I insist on a drawing before hand. Some don't see the need but all you need is one misunderstanding and it can ruin a good deal. Better safe than sorry, include and insist for a drawing in your estimate or don't take the job.
*Hugh, Plan your work, work your plan. A good set of working drawings is crucial to all involved. Furthermore, this can be an enjoyable aspect of theproject for the customer. Even "simple" jobs should be built on paper first. This approach heads off the kinds of problems that coincide with poor planning.Regards, Dan-O.
*Let me take that one step farther and say that I wouldn't "itemize" that 1% (as if that is enough) for drawings to the customer as if it were negotiable. It is a necessary part of the job. And let me put that into perspective.... 1% of a $20,000 job is $200.Ken
*Hold on a sec. Where does this 1% come from? Good drawings not only make for a smoother job, but make for agreement on what the job is. But how does that come to 1%?On my work, I have often gone through 5 or more sets of drawings before approval, and frequently find changes both necessary and appropriate given unknown conditions as the job moves forward. These are not some foofy extra, but an absolutely necessary foundation for good work. If they are needed at all, then they should cost whatever they cost. It's like doing trim without a hammer (OK bad example these days), but the point is that when drawings are needed, they are as much a part of the job as anything else and should not be treated like an orphan.SHG
*As our company(Dad and I) has grown into finish work on very high end houses in our area, I have found the drawing to ba a necessary part of delivering exactly what the customer wants . Sometimes this can be a quick sketch on the drywall or a several times revised CAD drawing. What I wanted to add is how often we use photos of past work or from design magazines to build from. I know everyone does this, but along with your drawings having a nice arrangement of photos of similar projects is a great brainstorm and might remove the gray area that poor communication can lead to.
*I agree with what everyone here has said, and especially SHG. The next time a client mentiones he/she doesnt' then drawings are necessary, ask the wife if she would tell a 5 strangers to go and buy her a dress after saying she wanted it to be red, length to the knees, and a no belt, and what those 5 strangers would bring back from the clothing store. Or to have a custom car built - with no drawings.These are the people who wnat to save on price, and being ignorant of the "process" of our industry, use a lack of drawings as part of the savings package. As the trade professional, it's up to you to make them realize the the drawings, hand in hand with the "specs", are the "foundation" from which the project gets built "to" and agreed upon by all parties. Otherwise, it's like playing basketball without a hoop, or planning on driving to California without an itenerary or "purpose."As Michael Gerber says, if it isn't written down, it doesn't exist. In other words, everyone intreprets verbalizations their own way. And get paid for every minute spent on them as well.Finally, what happens if drawings don't exist? We all know the answer is a client who says, "Oh. I didn't think it would look like that." Translated, it means I'm not paying. That happened to me when I first started in business. My reply was: "OK, I'll just keep redoing my work until I eventually hit upon a way that you like - at my expense. Is that what you had in mind?" Projects without plans is nonsense!
*Frankly I don't understand why you are pricing to a customer in such detail. If you are doing fixed price work then you don't detail the costs to the customer. See some of the prior posts on pricing for a better explanation of how to price. But, a Firm Rule is: Customer has no right to my detailed costs unless I choose to share them. When I choose to share them is mainly limited to Commercial/Government jobs where the bid documents require it.As for the drawings; why is this even a question? The essence of a contract is a meeting of the minds between you and the customer. There is no way you can have a meeting of the minds unless you have detailed specifications to include a graphical representation of what those specifications produce.Plus, you get a lot of customer education and satisfaction out of the picture process. That means a happier customer and more of the best kind of advertising; word of mouth.
*Good drawings can save your hind end. In commercial work, they constitute a legal document. Maybe SHG could comment more on this. As others have suggested, I'd building the drawing fees into your price or hourly rates. I've seen a similar situation with auto repair ........ a dealership or garage will add an environmental fee or a fee for rags etc. and people scream ......raise your hourly rates to cover increase expenses and they don't seem to mind as much ......human nature.
*".......what is more important; for me to developed from my experience where I see what is best and be used as a marketing tool, or should I develop a flexible style of buisness which can customize itself for each customer and their wishes. Will market area and population effect my style of business." Hugh, you know your strengths and weaknesses. You also know the "style" you prefer to operate in. Determine the market you want to serve, the types of jobs you want to do and build your business around that philosophy. If not, the market place will pull and push you where it pleases - as jobs develop. Now that's not all bad either if you like diversification in your work. The biggest problem is diversification is two fold: (1) Gaining the necessary experence to serve those many areas, and (2) Developing the tricky part of estimating each aspect of those jobs - accurately.It's your bag. Put in it what you like.
*Approved plans constitute a part of the contract in any job, commercial or otherwise. And Sonny's statement, that no two people see the same thing although they hear the same thing when described, is very true.And if there are no drawings, and you build blind, then you deserve to have to build it over and over until the customer likes it because you neglected to define the job. And frankly, I have never seen a customer who doesn't feel more comfortable and secure seeing on paper what he sees in his head.SHG
*Thanks for the comments, SGH. Was on a job last year (new resteraunt) and in the the kitchen was a row of lights that could not be turned off except by going outside to the electrical room. No switch was shown on the approved drawings ....the new switch was a change order.
*I agree with the need for GOOD drawings. And I would add, good architects also insist on samples or mockups where practical. And the customer pays for those samples; my samples are usually 2X the price of production. The very best architects put right on their plans - 2 samples required. Their experience has shown them that one sample is needed to narrow the range of vision and the 2nd sample is needed to hit the mark.About charging 2X for samples, we, in the building trades are not retail merchants. When a sample doesn't garner approval, we can't simply go back into the store room to trot out another variation of our wares. We are selling time as much as anything else; there is not a human on earth powerful enough to replace the hours spent on the first sample. Only the Great Manufacturer in the sky can do that.
*The thing is , good drawings. I am often presented with drawings from designers that can't be built from.....sometimes they can't be built from because the client went and changed the cabinetry style after the designer finished the drawings, sometimes because the designer doesn't understand cabinetry. The client thinks "What's the problem, I've provided (expensive) drawings." What I get are often just conceptual drawings, and it takes a load of work to tweak everything....a recent example is a row of cabinets including a 24" tall cabinet to fit a 30" oven....kinda throws everything off a little....but what client wants to pay twice for design/drawings?I don't know what the answer is. I know I can do the design and provide drawings to the other trades (and everything will work), for less than it costs to go to the designer and then have me work the cost of redesign into the job. Doesn't help when the designer is already been and gone (and while I'm crabbing about this, I have to say, the two designers in town I am getting drawings from are really very good, better than many).What do I suggest? People pay for designers et al to help with colours and overall ideas, and provide concept sketches to the trades, who get paid to provide real working drawings. Does ths answer the original question? probably not. But drawings that work matter, and they have to be paid for.
*I don't do much work anymore needing prints, but for you guys who routinely do, perhaps you should create something similar to "The Process" I created about remodeling I give to my clients. Many customers are simply not familiar with the process of remodeling, drawings and working plans and thier purpose. This doesn't have to be in brochure form, maybe more like a 2-4 page explanation of drawings, which conceptualize the project and obviate potential problems, and working plans which actually state all of the specifications of not only the potential project, but is also inclusive of existing specs such as dimensions, doors, windows, electrical, etc. This will also educate them as to why designers can do a "drawing" but why a set of working plans is mandated - unless of course, they want to pay for multiple and expensive Change Orders, and endure the subsequent frustrations and schedule delays.This multi-page document might prove to be a valuable educational instructional tool (I'd include a sample of a drawing and a plan), that will make it easier for the client to understand the hows, whys, wheres, etc. of pertinent aspects of what they want and what can, & can't be done for them. As humans, we all relate better to the written word and pictures than just philsophical discussions. In additon, we all know there are extremes in clients - those who can "visualize" a project and those who just cannot.Anyway, just a thought.
*Adrian-The answer is obvious. You need to provide the working drawings and you have to charge for them. I know that your competitors are an issue but as you say your customer has already paid for drawings and will be reluctant to do so again. You need to make your drawings as efficiently as possible with no more information than is necessary to do your job.One other point about drawings. Many of my customers, including some very good ones, can make neither head nor tail out of drawing. Until they see the product they have no idea of how it will look. These customers need to be shown pictures or actual buildings and you have to get a feel for what they want. I am not saying that this is easy or for everybody but it works for me. Again, you do need to charge for this. We charge hourly for the time spent with the customer in the design work and an additional amount in our labor rates to cover this and other uncertainties.
*Working drawings are a key element to the product that you offer. I focus my attentions on the kitchen and bath remodels. Home Depot hands out these diagrams to every home owner that walks in, with what they believe to be accurate measurements of the room. They present the customer with a price and try to schedule an actual measure. In our area the big boxes have many problems with their jobs because not enough time is spent on design. You must take pride in your design work as it will represent the finished product before the first piece of wood is ordered. I use Cabinet ware software for my design. Although every item for the job is visible on the floor plan which is part of the contract, I spell out all of what I consider to be key details in writing (as part of the contract). Recently I have also been adding a lot of text to my floor plans, and elevations so the customer will zero in on items that are most important. Only perspective diagrams are clear with no written call outs. I have been trying to come up with a system to charge for all of my design work but have been reluctant to implement it. You must do the design and drawings to have an iron clad contract. You decide if you want it to be for free.
*This brings up a good point. Where the drawings are used as part of the contract, then you're caught in a bind. Can you charge for drawings before you have a contract (and a deal) or do you do the drawings for free as part of the negotiation/contract process and build it into your price later. But if the latter, then what if you don't get the job?I've seen people who won't bid without plans, and won't do plans without a fee, and lose jobs because the customer hasn't decided that one guy gets the job over another. So, he's not paying one guy for plans when he might have another do the job.My view is that the plans and spec's for bidding purposes is done at a sufficient level to contract (and as a promotional tool since good plans make a customer want to use you) and then more detailed, final plans, the cost of which is built into the job, are prepared after the deal is done. Remember, nobody finds success without some risk.SHG
*
I believe it is very important to get good working drawings then providing a fixed price for my projects. As we all know forward planning leads to smooth project flow, value for money, and a good nights sleep (usually). The trouble is that not all the customers I meet know this and feel that paying the extra 1% that a good drawing may cost is an unessessary expense. My question to those out there with more experience is, what is more important; for me to develop a style of buisness practise which is consistant customer to customer developed from my experience where I see what is best and be used as a marketing tool, or should I develop a flexible style of buisness which can customize itself for each customer and their wishes. Will market area and population effect my style of business.
It breaks my heart to see waste, stress and inefficentcies caused by lack of forward planning. It is after watching this for fifteen year that I decided to get out on my own in the first place.