I’m a cabinet guy with some framing background. We are having a new house built with an oversized garage (20’x30′) equivalent of a triple. A long bonus room (10’x30′) will be over the garage. The framers used a glum lam to split the long ceiling/bonus floor length into two sections, then toenailed 2×10 x 15’s into the glue lam (16″ oc). This makes the joists run parallel with the long length of the bonus room floor. Couple of observations: some of the toe nailed joints have 20+ nails (besides looking bad it looks weak); second, seems like the long plywood floor installed perpendicular to the joists instead of parallel would be stronger. I think “joist hangers” would improve the current situation as well as joist/tension straps. Am I right about this? Would you also suggest glueing and screwing bonus sub floor down? Any thoughts appreciated!
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They should have used joist hangers, run the plywood across the joists, and glued it down.
What else are they doing wrong??
dbleagles-
I'm going to tell you straight the best thing you can do right now is go take some closeup photos of the work and post them here in this thread.
Even if you have to borrow a camera and have someone help you post the pics you are going to save yourself a lot of time and headache getting it done now.
Sounds like some serious issues seeing someone would put 20+ toenails in the end of a 2x10 and as the previous poster said foreshadows what will probably be other poor framing practice elsewhere.
Edited 7/1/2006 10:11 am ET by rez
I'm guessing either this was done without an inspection, or you're in a spot with no inspections.
The joist hangers are typically a must have item. A 16d nail is only code rated for 45 lbs. or so in shear, so in a best case situation (not likely) your floor would be fine, but it's quite hard to beat the simplicity and reasurance of the hangers. Our inspectors wouldn't let it slide without the hangers.
While hard to believe, there was quality construction that survived quite well over the long-term in days before hangers.
The plywood orientation is also just bad judgement and not considered good practice, even though it probably meets most building codes.
An additional layer of subfloor is probably a great idea. Glued and screwed is an ideal way to go. It's also a good excuse for an autofeed screw gun. :-)
Good building!
trout!20+ toenails in the end of a 2x10?
We're not talking about two or three spikes thru a center beam into the joist.20+ toenails would have to destroy the connect strength at the end of the joist. Sounds like someone just got happy with a nailgun.
be what is that? One nail every less than an inch on both sides?
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20+ toenails would have to destroy the connect strength at the end of the joist.
I never said it was good building practice. :-)
However, I have torn apart such connections used as temperary supports for hydrolic rams and can say without hesitation that if the nails are installed in a way that doesn't split the ends of the joist it can be quite strong and equal that of a common 2x10/12 simpson tie (best case). Even with the hydrolic rams we prefer to use simpson hangers since they are easier to use and provide a more predictable connection.
Hem/fir framing material, especially when fresh can take a large number of toenails without splitting, unlike dougfir unless nearly green. With our temp toe nailed connections that often were stressed to failure, more nails provided additional support, unless the wood split.
Additionally, most carpenters' 16d gun nails are a far cry from a 16d common.
I should repeat, this isn't the type of building I'm advocating or think shows good judgement. Also, there is no easier way to get a good connection than a simpson tie and hanger nails. If contracted to fix the poor framing we wouldn't hesitate to install proper hangers and run additional subfloor.
Good building!
Thanks to all...I'[m getting hangers, blocking ties and the second subfloor sounds like a good way to go too. This seems to be the only "out of line" stuff so far.
I'm with DavidM....anyone who'd do that probably screwed up elsewhere...
I'll be willing to bet you have a lot more fantASY carp[entry going on there. A builder would need to be extremely ignorant or inexperienced to build as you describe. They used the WEAK axis of the plywood where the strong axis is needed.
That kind of work can only come one of two ways;They don't know any better which leads to the conclusion that they should not be building any house or garageThey know, but either don't care, or are in the habit of looking for the easiest way out which leads to the conclusion they shouldn't be building YOUR house
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Thanks and a hat tip to ya.
Beware. RFID is coming.
Sounds like a REALLY bad job to me.
I'd say you need to get someone in there capable of analyzing the situation and recommending a fix.
Keep in mind the rafters are in compresion and are trying to spread the longer walls apart. Since the floor joists appear to run the opposite direction, that's a problem.
Toe-nailing floor joists to beams is ridiculous.
"Toe-nailing floor joists to beams is ridiculous."Boss,He has a flush girder and the joists are toenailed to that. Why is toenailing a joist into a beam ridiculous?Twenty toenails is ridiculous. I always toenail the joists into the beams and then nail hangers on later.Joe Carola
Edited 7/1/2006 8:23 pm ET by Framer