I started a 4000 s/f house yesterday on top of a “Logix” foundation. Has anyone seen these before?
I will post more pictures later and talk about it more.
http://www.logixicf.com/client/LogixICF/LogixMain.nsf/WebPages/builder.html
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Replies
Joe -
I looked into these when I built my house, but ended up using a different company's ICF system. My system was planks that were put together (I think the Logix is blocks already assembled, correct?), and subsequently wished that I had bought something more like Logix.
Did the crew putting these together seem to have any issues with them? I was not impressed with the quality controls of the stuff I used, and it went together poorly...
Jamie
I had the same problem with quality control on my ICF house. Mine were a different brand from the ones above, but the same gemeral idea.
I appears that, besides the usual issues (square and plum) bracing before the pour is extremely important: One main floor wall has a 3/4" slope and a 3/4" bow, which meant I had to build a sort of secondary wall which was plumb and true before drywalling.
Another wall has a 3/8" bow over about 4'. This meant I had a lot of Durabond to install before ceramic tiles could be applied.
When I brought this to the attention to the contractor, he explained that the walls would be 'shaved' flat and true. Not surprisingly, once the cheque cleared it was the last I saw of him, although he rather stupidly sent people around as a reference.
ICF is particularly vulnerable to poor workmanship because once the concrete hardens there is nothing you can do to fix it: you can only work around the defects.
There are other challenges assoicated with wiring and plumbing, but these can be overcome, as well as the fact that windows and door require special consideration with thick walls.
I would do ICF again, but not without a quality guarantee from the builder (i.e. no more than 1/4" bow, etc over 8' or whatever the specs of the ICF manufacturer) and a sizeable holdback.
So here is more of my story:
I'm a former contractor, building my own house at the time (now complete...mostly)...so I "stacked" the ICFs and poured the walls myself. I braced the $^&* out of the ICF walls, with plywood and 2x4, 2x6 bracing. I went up 10' for the walls, which was problematic through the whole deal, due to the fact that I probably needed MORE bracing becuase of that extra height.
My house had 22 corners...about 18 more than I wished it had after stacking these planks and bracing all of the corners with extra bracing. I thought I had it all covered, as far as bracing, and the best walls are the ones with long straight runs - they turned out great...it was the corners that caused problems, particularly where one wall ran into another in a "T".
Anyway, everything turned out OKAY (as in OK, but not GREAT), but I kind of wish I had just went with a steel form pour...I haven't finished the basement yet, so I can't speak to what I'll have to go through to get the drywall to look good.
Some of the issues I encountered were the actual ICFs not matching one another in size (length, width, thickness). Was a P.I.T.A. to set up.
As far as ICFs go in general, I think they are a great idea...just don't know abou the actual implementation of them - was way more work than I expected. I'm glad I didn't do the whole house with them... :)
Jamie
I just finished an ICF pour yesterday, my second with Amvic blocks. The basement (2 weeks back) was very difficult, since the pump truck reducers could not handle the gravel in the mix, we had to drop concrete 50' through a 5" hose, which I had to wrestle constantly. One wall ended up with an unintended curve in it - I can hide it under the deck outside (my house) and shim inside, but not how I like to do things.
Yesterday, we poured the first floor walls on top: a 4,000 psi pea gravel mix through a trailer pump with a 2" hose. This was great - no issues whatsoever. I needed a helper to manage the hose, but I could simply lay the hose in the wall and move it every few minutes. 2 passes and the 8' walls were full - no bulges, no blowouts, everything square and plumb. Lesson: USE A TRAILER PUMP IF POSSIBLE.
We learned a few things from the first pour - brace every opening. Brace corners well. We used probably 100 studs in addition to the metal bracing we rented, and metal stud track on top to straighten the wall. As wild as it sounds, the foam is plenty strong to hold concrete - this was my concern, but no longer. I will definitely use ICFs again.
I have formed three foundations and two houses with Logix so far and hope to do a good few more. I think it's agood product, but I'd like to have it reversible to cut down on waste. With a lot of ICF's, you can take what you cut off the top of a block, flip it over and lay it on and it will link up with the top of the previous course. Not Logix, yet, although I hear that might change.
Ron
Joe,
I've only seem them at JLC Live and the International Builders show. It looks like a cool system.
Take lots of pics of the framing on that house. Your pics and others (Brian) inspire my crew and me. :-)
I investigated the ICF market when I built our current family home about 9 years ago. It was a choice that came down to basic economics. The foundation for our house was roughly double if I went with the ICF. I decided to go with traditional (around these parts) 10 inch concrete block foundation. I gained insulation value by using r30 fibreglass in the basement.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I saw the Logix blocks after I did my foundation with Reward blocks. I think Logix is the one that offers a "top course" block that flares out inside and has a flat top without the connecting nubs. Anyway, that would have been nice; I had to shave all the nubs off of the Reward blocks because we couldn't pour flush to the top of the wall forms.
The Reward seems to be OK, I think most of the common ICF's are pretty similar. I haven't tried drywalling or finishing the foundation yet so we'll see how it goes. My walls turned out pretty straight and plumb in spite of being underbraced (yeah, I followed the mfr. instructions but I don't think it was adequate). hindsight being 20/20, I would have added another course of blocks for a deeper basement, and braced twice as much.
I agree with your assessment of "bracing like manufacturers specs", but not being enough. I actually added more bracing in than they required, but I could have done better...probably had $1500 worth of lumber bracing the basement walls.
But I think it was worth it overall...my basement is awesome for heating/cooling, particularly for being 75% out of the ground (it's a walkout).
One thing that I did like is that it was extremely easy to make my basement 10' instead of 8 or 9...just add another course. :)
Jamie
See my other thread for details, but this amateur did a nice square and plumb basement with Amvic blocks with the help of a consultant recommended by Amvic. No problems with the system whatsoever. No bracing beyond the manufacturer's recommendations. Poured with a 70' boom truck pump with the recommended reducers. We put a string line on the forms prior to the pour on the long wall (38') and there was no need to adjust anything after the pour. According to the consultant (what do I know?!), the key is good level footings, 8" walls, and no excessive vibration. Keeping the layout simple helps too.
The only trouble was what to do with the cubic metre of concrete left in the pump's chute when he was done pumping, which had to be dumped. Oh well, that just meant I filled a few piers for my garage by wheelbarrow (just prior to the inspector arriving to see the bottom of the pier holes, but hey- concrete waits for no man!).
Did the grade beams/stem wall for the garage using the same system. Poured that all from the chute of the concrete truck. No problems there either.
Glad to hear your pour went well. Mine wasn't TOO bad.
One thing you mentioned was the layout. I think this is where I was kinda screwed...as I mentioned earlier, I had 22 corners. My neighbor did his basement in the same system I used, but his house literally had 4 corners. It amazed me how much more smoothly everything went on his house as compared to mine.
Should have know, I guess, after years of complaining about corners in houses as we were framing them up. :)
Jamie