Greeting All,
This is my second Post in this forum. The first one was to ‘Construction Techniques’ but I never got any reply so I am reposting it here.
We have a two storey ranch that sits on a land that slopes from front to back, i.e. at the Front of the house, the 1st floor is at ground level and at the back the walkout basement is at ground level. The house is located at the top of a hill. For some reason we have a damp basement during especially rainy days. There is also big round stains that have white powdery like minerals. The Basement is poured concrete slab. The garage, that is at the basement level in the back of the house, seems to have a poured concrete floor too, which is an inch below the rest of the basement floor. It seems that it is separated from the rest of the basement by some sort of a iron sheet(which looks heavily rusted) as shown in the picture. As you see there used to be a wall between the Garage and the adjoining room. A standard Drywall on wood frame. The dampness on the garage side of the wall disintegrated the wall board bottom to the point that the bottom half of the wall(front to back) fell apart. It also stunk because I think the paper on the drywall would get wet. You can also see rust on the Metal Column. Well, we demolished the wall. The molding around the door seemed to have rot but the rest of the wall frame seems to be rot free. I poked with a screwdriver and the sill did not disintegrate, which is a surprise. I also see no evidence of mold on the sill or the bottom wall. We want to finish the wall once more.
Given the dampness situation, what are our options?
– Call Basement Systems to take apart existing wall frame and put in new metal/plastic wall systems?
– Use Cement board other water resistant wallboard product on the Garage side and/or room side?
– What are the options for insulation? FiberGlass, Mineral Wool, Polyurethane, something else?
– We live in Andover Massachusetts. Does anyone know if SIPS are available/feasible for Do-it-yourselfers?
I am pretty handy at tackling construction jobs, i.e. my skill level is average. Should I take this on or leave it to professionals?
Thanks in advance.
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime. Sorry about your first message falling off the edge of the earth. I think the non-response was mainly due to posting late on Friday evening rather than posting in "Construction Techniques". Your question does seem to fall into the techniques category.
I don't have any useful advice. Just responding to your message to keep it afloat. We call that bumping. It is acceptable to bump your own messages.
Welcome.
It would also help if you could reduce the size of the pics to around 100 kp.
That way the dial uppers can help you as well.
Good luck this time.
I saw this thread but either I didn't understand the question or somone else answered it. Whats the question? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
To all: I was able to see the pics better by right clicking on the little icons and choosing "open in new window" from the drop down list that appeared.
To OP - I'm gonna have to charge ya for the kink I got in my neck from turning my head to look at those sideways pictures. :-)
Seriously though, are there exterior conditions that may be causing the damp basement? Like maybe the gutter downspouts depositing water directly at the foundation wall of the house? If so these should be piped away from the house either above or below ground. What about the grading? Does it slope away from the house in all directions so that water runs away from the foundation everywhere? I guess what I'm saying is that you need to resolve your moisture problem before putting more finish material in the basement. The moisture problem sounds not too serious so start with the simple things checking to see that the roof drainage system (gutters) are working properly. If they just go into the ground at the foundation be suspicious - check them out to be sure they drain away from the house. Some novice builders may hook the gutter piping up to the foundation drain system - very bad!!
Is all concrete around the house - ie front walk and possibly steps, sloped away from the house? Where does the water from the road out front drain? Into your front yard?
Check around the lower end of the house to see if you can find some drain tails for a foundation drain system that may have hopefully been installed. By "drain tails" I mean ~4" pipes that come out of the ground below the house's basement floor level. IF they are there the ends may be covered over with soil, they have may have been run over, etc.
BTW how old is the house? I see no treated wood being used against the concrete - not the best technique but I guess it was the mode of operation before treated wood was available, although tar paper, flashing, etc should have been put between the wood and the concrete.
Can we get some pics of the outside of the house? Like ones standing back at least about 40' feet or more so so we can get an overall idea of what the site conditions are like.
BTW - you said: >>There is also big round stains that have white powdery like minerals. << That white powdery stuff is called efflorescence and is caused by the salts leaching out of cementous masonry material as water migrates through. It is a good clue as to exactly where the moisture sources might be.
Edited 11/7/2007 7:10 am ET by Matt
Sorry about the picture sizes. Did not realize I could resize those. Here are site pictures from all four sides. I will try to answer questions in the next post. How do you attach a picture that you do not have to click on, to display?
I think I remember your first posting. It was late at night when I saw it so I was tired and the description either was not clear or I was too sleepy. I think I just assumed somebody would eventually resizze the photos so I could see them...Anyways. it is quite lear fdrom these recent photos that surface wter and roof runoff is beinbg led towards the foundation.
The end where the paved drive swoops around looks like it tilts to the house. Thepaving itself looks like it could dump water right in under the garage door in a heavy rain, and to the left of that, you have flat ground and a sidewalk trapping water where it is immediately next to the faoundation in stead of running off on surface. Around the top side, that gravel parking spoace looks like it slopes to the house. The style of the house suggests it is a good 30-40 years old, so thegravelwas probably built up over time and the hosiue ccould easily have settled in an inch too on clay soils. The paving was probably an addition too without paying attention to drainage. Wouldsn't be suprised if somebody didn't get tired of walking through damp or wet grass/mud to get along the pathway to under deck, and so decidded to make it crete whih damned water flow away from the house.In that amt of time, it is possible that the original perimeter drains have gotten clogged up too, so you have more water trying to evacuate through diminished capacity lines. That means the waater is wicking up through the slabs and ccausing the efflorescenece and other problems.Primary thing to do is regrade. slope all soils away on surface and/or instal french drains to carry water away before it can get under you.If you ccan diuscover where original perimeter drains led to, you can have a camera run up in to seee if they need replacement
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We just bought the house last year (I think we paid too much for it, bride thinks it is a rough diamond and just needs some TLC). The house was built @1962. The previous owners lived in it for @40 years and *never* updated it. I mean, absolutely nothing, in the 40 odd years, well except for the second layer of roof shingles. The Frames etc. are pretty solid as far as construction goes. But construction technology is far behind. e.g Aluminum framed (leaky) windows, single pane picture windows. 2x4 wall with 2" FG insulation, 2x6 rafters with 4" insulation on the roof. The list goes on. The house is almost a seive and pretty cold in winter and hot in summer. This is New England.Grading! Yes, over the years the grade has tended to slope towards the house so that water collects close to the front of the house(see picture 38_40). Yes there are also bushes that were placed very close to the house 40 years ago(probably) and have now grown considerably. You can see that in almost all the pictures. Cannot tell for sure if the grading at the back of the house is any better. The siding seems to almost touch the soil(I do not know what they were thinking). There is kind of a concrete patio under the deck. The rest of the rear just gradually slopes towards the pond.
Water from the road in the front used to get diverted from the front into our lot and collect in a pool in the front. Yeah our basement used to be a lot wetter. I hauled about 20 wheelbarrow full of crushed stone(left over from sewer hookup project) and piled and tamped it at the end of the driveway close to the road so the water kept going downstream along the road instead of diverting to our lot. There is eventually a storm drain a few feet downstream from the bottom end of our lot facing the road. This kind of made the basement less wet but it is still very damp.
So yes we are in the process(very painful process) of calling contractors that would be willing to even give us the time of day. Already got stood-up today by a landscape contractor that claimed he was very good at returning calls. Well he is apparentely not good at keeping appointments.Gutters! No gutters on this house. We are calling contractors to see if we can get this done for a reasonable price. If price is not reasonable, or if I get stood-up for that too, I think I can do it myself. As you see the roof-line is pretty straight-forward. Ofcourse I will solicit opinions on Breaktime first :)DrainTile! I went around while taking pictures and did not find any evidence of one. I do not know if there is one. Would this info be availabe with the Town's building inspector? I am guessing this will be quite financially crushing for me to retrofit.Efflorescence! It can be seen in mostly all areas ranging from mild to heavy, except in the boiler room(6'x8') and the storage room(8'x12')and the tiled bathroom. Interestingly enough all of these rooms are closest to the front of the house(i.e. side with the wrong grading). The storage room is the only room that has kind of a shiny finish on the concrete floor. Seems like polyurethane but is not that glossy. The worst is in the garage and the room adjacent to it. Main living area in the basement used to be carpeted and always smelt musty. I fainted when I ripped up the carpet and saw the white powdery stuff. I thought it was mold(and that after paying that much for the house.). When I taped a 1'x1' 6mil plastic sheet to the garage and the living area in the basement, it gets pretty dark underneath and moist. I guess that must mean lots of water is leaching upwards.The walkout has a patio and the garage has a asphalt driveway. I can tell that the driveway slopes away from the house, but the Patio I do not know(I just realized I can put my level and find this out).Heating/Cooling! Heating-yes, Cooling-no. FHW Baseboard heat in all the rooms 1st floor and basement, except the garage. Garage is unheated.Garage! We just had 2" insulated garage doors installed. It is unheated. The floor is concrete and heavily pitted. The ceiling has drywall and a textured surface coating on it. I do not know if it was primed. I do not know if there is any(good?) insulation between the room upstairs and the garage. We have not put our car in yet, but plan to eventually use it for that.My question is that the bottom plate of the wall between garage wall and adjacent room has been there for 40 years. It does not seem like it has rotted in those years. Yet the bottom of the drywall fell apart. Why? Does it(Bottom plate) have to be taken apart to put tar paper at the bottom etc? Seems like the Drywall had paint etc. on it. If we put the wallboard, insulation back, will we be repeating the same mistakes as before?Assuming that grading and adding the gutters did not work. How do we proceed from there?
Can we use cement board(Assuming moisture will still be a problem)? Am I making too much of a big deal about the moisture and you have seen worse? Can I use |Adjacent Room->|<-6mil poly Vapor barrier->|<-2x4->|<-1"Polyurethane Board->|<-3/8"Cement Board->|<-Garage|? Will this meet local/federal codes?Again, Thanks much for taking the time to reply.
Before covering that wall back up, get some Boracare or ( forget the name but it is boron rods that you drill into damp lumner to prevent rot - made by same folks are the Boracare) to treat it with. I think for wall covering you can do this - staple some strips of tarpaper 2" wide to the faces of the wood up about 18" and along the bottom plate. Then use MR sheetrock and hold it up an inch off the floor. That way no wiccking will get to the SR and it would take an outright flood to dampen it.I am not a fan of gutters, but with what you have, that would probably solve 60% plus of your water intrusion problems. Be a good first step!
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Piffin,
What is the purpose of covering the face of the wood with strips of 2" wide tar paper upto 18". Is to prevent moisture wicking into the future insulation? What about the side of the framing on the Garage side of the wall where the Wallboard will be attached? Should I staple in 18" wide tar paper from the bottom. When placing the bottom of the wallboard 1" from the bottom, should we cover the bottom 1" with anything(plastic/rubber baseboard)? What about the Vapor barrier between the framing and the wallboard? Tyvec, 6mil plastic, something else. Since no one mentioned anything about my idea of putting 1" polyurethane foam between wall board and framing, I take it that it is not the thing to do. Is that correct? Many thanks to all for replying. I was pretty depressed before I posted on this forum. It was my colleague that encouraged me to post my problem. I feel very encouraged now.Regards,Girish.
Even if you stopped the moisture intrusion through the soils today, there is already enough there that for a couple of years, you could be having some wick up through the slab and into the framing of the wall. The tarpaper strips is to prevent this moisture from damping and weakening the paper of the sheetrocck. Using Moisture resistant will help with that too, but as another poster caught, this is a firewall. I don't think MR qualifies in that regaard. Pay atention to using a fire caulk at the bottom, but you do not want the SR in direct contact with the concrete as it will wick moisture up.No on the VB because that could trap moisture in the wall cavity as it wiks up from below. Likewise, foam can act as a VB.
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Solve the moisture problems before doing anything to finish the interior.
From what I can see from the pics, I wouldn't be so concerned about the side and back drainage, just the front. It's hard to tell though. If you want to take just a few more pics of the front and sides stand back more when you take the pics.
If money is very tight, just put gutters on the front of the house, but again make sure the downspouts drain well away from the house - probably at least 8' from the sides. Expect to pay around $2.50 to $3.50 a foot for the installed gutters, although in your geography it might be more or less.
Attached is a simple drawing of what I think the situation is, and what I know it needs to be.
Consider installing a curtain drain. What you do is dig a ditch - probably with a rented mini-excavator or good sized trencher, at least 3' or 4' deep, put a little gravel in it, install probably a 100' roll of 4" corrugated black perforated flexible pipe cover with gravel to within 3 or 4" of the finished grade, then grade over. That was nice the way I summarized a weeks worth of work in one sentence. :-) You want to line the ditch with filter fabric or use the kind of pipe with a "sock" on it. This will be much cheaper than actually digging up the foundation.
Then re-grade the front yard. If you are hiring this stuff out you might be able to get the same guy to do it all for a few $grand. The re-grading will take a guy with some skill and both a small dozer and some kind of finish machine or some labors for the finish work. Probably 1.5 or 2 days work.
Matt,
Thanks for the diagram. How far should the ditch(curtain drain I presume) be away from the front of the house? Is there a rule of thumb. Just so I am clear on this the order of items should be...
1. Dig a ditch
2. Line it with filter fabric
3. Place a layer of crushed stone
4. Place 4" perforated pipe
5. Cover pipe with crushed stone to within 3-4" of finished grade.
6. Grade over. Is this also called a French drain? The landscape contractor that is coming tomorrow seems to be advocating digging a trench within the house and putting a sump pump. instinct tells me to tackle water outside the house if we can(i.e. if the drain, above works)Regards,Girish.
The idea is that you are creating a swail in front of the house that drains to either side - as shown in the sketch. So, the curtain drain, or "french drain" is basically at the bottom of the swail, which might be around 8 or 10 feet out from the house. The reason I didn't use the term "french drain" even though it is pretty much the same thing is that often times people refer to the perimeter drains (footer drain system) on a house as a french drain, whereas the term "curtain drain" indicates that it is a french drain type arrangement that is out in the yard, as opposed to right up next to the house. Another name for curtain drain is "interceptor drain".
When I say swail - I mean a very shallow ditch or depression in the yard that directs the water away from the house.
You have the sequence of the french (curtain) drain correct. For the filter fabric I like to use something called "septic paper" because it is cheap and specifically made for similar applications. I think it is made out of fiberglass and it looks like that thin translucent stuff that you might sometimes see on the bottom of a box spring (mattress support). The idea with the fabric is to prevent fines (find dirt and sand) from filling the gravel and pipe up over a several year period. The rate at which this occurs depends on your soil type. The landscaper might say you don't need it, but to that just reply "will you give a written 20 year guarantee?" :-)
Regarding the sump pump idea, well - yea, that will keep your basement from flooding but I don't think that is your problem; you have seepage through the walls - right? Admittedly it would help with seepage coming up through the floor. Here is another way to think about it: to patch a leaky boat you could patch on the inside of the boat and install a bilge pump, but ideally you want to patch the boat hull on the outside, which requires taking it out of the water. In the case of your house, patching it on the outside, at this point, is fairly cost prohibitive, as it basically means digging up the whole foundation. BUT - if you simply take the boat out of the water and leave it out, it's not gonna leak. :-) So, the idea, as I think you understand is to keep the water from getting to the foundation to start with: IE, gutters, swail, & curtain drain. (in order of importance) Besides - what do you want to do? Dig a ditch out front with a piece of equipment or jack hammer out the basement slab and dig with a shovel?
The key concept to understand is that water will first run down hill (obviously) but secondly, it will migrate (underground) to the easiest point of exit. That is the reason for the curtain drain, and the reason for putting it out from the house, is that if you put it right up next to the house, the foundation needs to be dug up all the way down to the footers, foundation cleaned, and fully waterproofed - big $$$.
This stuff I have been writing was from the contractor side of me, but from the HO side, I have this same situation at my house - front yard slopes down from the road to the house. Attached are some pics that I already had. I can tell you that I have never seen water sit on that front sidewalk. In the pic I took the easy out for the downspout, but in other, more visibal areas I actually piped under ground with 4" sched 40 PVC, which means PIA and more$$.
BTW - when he said "big box" he meant Home Depot, Lowes, etc. - its slang for home improvement super store, and the stores do indeed look like a big (read huge) box.
Edited 11/10/2007 6:14 am ET by Matt
Good stuff you've added here with the photos exemplifying the schematic sketch.I agree the term french drain is oft poorly defined and misused. In my own lexicon, a perimeter drain is the original at base level with the footeres, and a french drain is the later added attempt to make up for a failed or poorly done perim drn, without going to the expense of full and complete excavation
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>> In my own lexicon, a perimeter drain is ... << There you go using those big words again.... :-) I looked it up - here it is 7:00 AM and I already learned somethin' today :)
Erosion control #### from the city came out to my building site the other day. I saw the writing on the wall when he asked me my FAX number... Didn't talk to me much other than that. Sent me a formal warning citation that cited several city ordinances, etc. with a 7 day compliance order. Among other things his writing said that I had to stabilize any areas that had been denuded for more than 21 days. I think he was just a young guy who needed to flex his muscles with the little power the city has given him, and at the same time needed to show that he wasn't just some young DA working for the municipality for $14/hr. Hence the unusual wording. :-) If this new guy was that smart he woulda just told me (verbally) what he wanted done and saved himself about a half hr of drafting up some fancy letter... I've been dealing with these city erosion guys for years and never got one of these letters - And this was his first visit to the site...
Edited 11/10/2007 7:20 am ET by Matt
good luck with that thenand be carefull with your zipper so you dfon't get de-nudded, LOL
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too funny.
Actually I got hooked up with an erosion control speciality company and their prices are way cheap compared to what I have been paying landscapers, or whoever to do silt fence and de-denuding :-) $260 a lin foot for silt fence and $1400 an acre for seed, straw, and binder.
"de-denuding :-)"LOL, and you think I use big words!Shorten that to renuding
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" Is this also called a French drain?"yes
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Resized for those suffering from dialupacitis, it's a terminal disease brought on by living in rural areas or chronic frugality.
I think Matt's concern about the site conditions is very valid. Water can find a low spot or a soft porous pocket and work its way into any environment. As Matt said verify whether there is an existing perimeter drain, whether your downspouts, if above grade, extend out far enough to move the water away from the house, and most importantly, whether the final grade up against the house slopes away on all sides. Being that you're on a hilltop doesn't automatically absolve the house from infiltration.
I had a client who wanted to build out his basement but also concerned about the dampness. "Well, sir, that big green spot on the wall isn't paint." Ensure that your downspouts are clear of debris and plant roots. Some landscaping plantings if too close to a downspout will have their roots migrate to the water source if plugged up and cause even more damage...as in cracking and pushing the concrete wall in.
If you can, establish whether you have a full perimeter drain system and find its cleanout. if it exists. Had a basement project that had almost flowing water for the bottom 4 courses of block. The perimeter drain system was almost solidly packed. Poked it out(vitrified clay pipe) and it flowed for over 4 hours. Not likely to be as bad for you with the rear being open but......this goes back to Matt's comment on the drain outlet somewhere in the backyard.
Your walk-out/garage wall. Do you have a patio/concrete drive at the rear. Sloped away? Exterior drain in same? At the rear corners do you have retaining walls or just a sloped grade?
How is the living area heated/cooled and is it, the HVAC, currently isolated from the garage? And is the Garage heated and cooled? Moisture from your car coming into the garage and then 'drying out' should be a consideration. Is the ceiling of the garage area drywalled? The separation wall construction should be considered as a moisture barrier from the garage. The temperature difference is a source of moisture development. (Visualize a single pane window in winter from inside a warm house).
If you were starting from scratch I believe you should build it as though it were an exterior garage wall. Wood studs with a double bottom plate (the bottom one being treated lumber)on a sill seal with the standard wood wall studs. Drywall on the garage side is moisture resistant on a vapor barrier, visqueen sheathing, and one primer coat and two semi-gloss top coats. Seal all edges for air/moisture infiltation. Insulation can almost be your own choice assuming that we stop the air-borne moisture from getting in.
Wow, do I talk too much. Lastly, the door. Insulated? fire-rated? Seals? Threshold?
I don't know if I helped. Hope I did.
ciao, ted
Forgot to address your last few lines.No, not building from scratch. Trying to access if we can do this ourselves or call in a pro. Want to do the most effective thing possible, minimum cost, minumum work.When you say seal all edges, do you mean with paint/tape? If so what kind of paint? Is it the same 'one primer coat and two semi-gloss top coats'? Should the paint be latex/oil-based?Door between garage and adjacent room is a pretty heavy solid core door with a galvanized sheet-metal sheet on the garage side. New Garage door s are steel-2"foam-insulation-steel(company is Clopay). Ceiling seems to be 1/2" drywall(not very sure though).
I took a second look at your interior pix and your exterior photos. The bottom plate appears to be in reasonably good condition given the age of home. No need to replace the stud walls either from the look.
The reason that I asked about drywall on the garage ceiliing is the fire protection is affords. You confirmed that when you described the door into your basement as being metal faced solid core. That dates the house as well as anything. Its an early solution at a residential fire rated door type.
Which goes to the material on the garage side of the wall. I read here about holding the drywall off the floor after applying a paper moisture barrier and I agree. I would respectfully submit that the wall was originally constructed as a fire wall, as is currently required, and the drywall should be a fire-rated type.
The sealing material I alluded to was a good exterior grade sealant/caulk that you would use (and probably will) around windows/doors and trim. If you want to seal it in a fire-rated sealant there are, get ready!, intumescent type sealants that give you up to 4hours of protection. At every big box.
Finally, the sketch of a revised drainage flow toward and around the house is spot on. Your front photo really highlights the problem. No gutters the water falls to within a few inches of the face of your home. The grade would appear to be swale like and thus retains the water until it seeps in or slowly drains around the sides. I would seriously focus on redirecting this water source. And it may be that you will have to cut a perimeter tile drain into the front, at the very least. (Given your description of the construction of the house I would believe that there was no drain installed and over the years the front drive and grounds just got built up).
Bottom line here is the need to control the moisture/water source. The wall construction is pretty straightforward.
Oh, one final, final thing. Perimeter drains. Most building departments archive building plans for only about 10years max. If you are lucky enough there may be someone still working there who is familiar with the residential building code requirements of 40years ago. These folks can be very helpful but....
ciao. ted
Ted, Thanks. What are intumescent type sealants? Also, what did you mean by 'at every big box'? When you say cut a perimeter drain tile, do you mean the ditch that Matt was referring to earlier?Regards,Girish.
Matt addressed the "big Box" question. And the type and name of drainage systems. Sorry I didn't get back sooner but....
An intumescent paint or sealant/caulk is a very specialized coating that, upon exposure to the heat of a fire, gives off an inert gas. The inert gas, since it has no oxygen within it acts as a barrier to the flame. The gas becomes a "dead zone".
I've used this type of paint/sealant for concealed spaces for about 8 or 9 years on commercial projects and a contractor friend tells me that it came in a sealant form and was at the local Home Depot and rated at a 4hour protection level. Checked it out and there it was! The paint (expensive!!) goes for about $400 a gallon and the sealant for about $9.50 a tube (don't hold me to that).!
Looks like you're zeroing on some solutions. Only the best.
ciao, ted