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I have a generator question. I live in the northeast. It’s not uncommon to have a falling snow covered limb take out a power line every few years. And when it happens my home becomes paralyzed due to the fact that I have a sewer ejection pump. No electricity, no ejection pump…I can’t use any water because it will over flow the tank and flood the basement.
The pump motor is a 110-volt, ¾ HP, dual capacitor start motor. I’ve been told to purchase at least a 3000 watts generator. I’ve found two different models in my area for about $475. A Porter-Cable, 3000W or a Coleman 5000W. I don’t need any bells and whistles on the generator (auto starts, etc.) I’ll just manually connect and run the generator as needed.
Is it worth sacrificing 2000W to purchase the Porter-Cable or are these low-end generators all about the same. Any thoughts about which manufacture makes a better generator?
Thanks for your help.
Jay Mauksch,
[email protected]
Replies
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Well, ya' get what ya' pay for..... Don't mean to sound flippant, but it's the truth, 'specially when it comes to generators. Don't know, off the top of my head what the run amperage is on a 110 3/4hp dual cap motor but you'd better figure 2x that (even more, depending the motor) for the start amperage. Size the generator accordingly. As for the P/C vs. Coleman, well, the low end stuff is just that- low end. Blue or AJ will recommend Honda- and for good reason.
Sam
*And I'll recommend Honda's reliability and ease of starting but if you only use it once a year, it might not be worth the extra $$. I've used that 5000 watt Coleman to run two 1 hp motors and a few accessories. BUT I had to start them separately and with the first one running with no load. Otherwise, starting the second one would kill it. It also helps to rev the generator manually just as you throw the switch. So 5000-746 watts (for the first motor) left 4200 watts as barely enough to start another 1 hp motor. Note that any induction motor will also require a LOT more than its nameplate amps/wattage to start although the particular multiplier is a characteristic of the particular motor and generator. It ranges from 4 to 7 usually. Here's an idea. Find someone who rents the generators in question and try them out. Well worth $35 to answer the question because nobody lets you return a purchased generator. If it works start adding resistive load (light bulbs, toaster, hair dryer) until it won't start. That will tell you how much excess amps it has on starting.If you wonder how much excess amps it has after starting, that's easy. Subtract the pumps nameplate wattage (amps x 120) from the ganerator's rating. But that bigger number is rarely an issue. The ability to fire up a motor (saw, fridge, A/C, drill) is more interesting than being able to turn on a bunch of lightbulbs. Note that during a winter storm, a non-Honda will be hard to start unless you keep it in a heated garage. And then move it OUTSIDE to run!!! That Coleman sometimes comes with an 12-volt electric start which really saves your shoulder - just hook up the jumper cables and press the button. Bottom line: I'm sure the 5000 watt Coleman will work. The 3000 P/C probably will as well. -David
*I'm curious about what you mean when you say "manually connect"Will you just run an extension cord outside? or did you have something more exciting in mind?
*Speaking of "manually connecting": The starting amps of even a 3/4 hp power induction motor will arc from receptacle to plug if you do it by hand. Switches are designed to handle those loads and are a much better way to turn motors on and off. You've all seen those extension cord plugs that were burned and eaten away. That's from using it as a switch. Sandpaper helps remove the soot and oxides but some metal is still missing. And the same thing goes on inside the receptacle. So turn off motors before connecting the cord and then use a switch on the wall or the equipment. Even the circuit breaker on the generator is better than using the cord. -David
*Personally, I wouldn't buy neither the Coleman nor the Porter Cable. But if I had to choose out of the two, I would go for the higher power. Make sure you connect things right with a tranfer switch if you are going to use your house circuitry at all!fv
*Get the Honda powered generator. Not because I think you should buy what I've got (which sometimes motivates those who post here), but because you shouldn't make the mistake I did. I bought a Generac generator with the Briggs and Straton motor. I thought I got a good deal because it was $60.00 cheaper than the Honda and rated at 5500 watts to honda's 5000 watts.I have 4 real complaints 1st Hard starting, from new it was as many as 15 or 20 pulls to get the thing to fire. 2nd Maintinance up the butt, 3rd Noise, The damn thing was so LOUD that you ran it just before the refrigerator was going to spoil all the food and no longer or sooner. 4th. Fuel, I swear that thing thought my favorite hobby was carring gasolene. The Honda powered ones started right and away since they bought it I don't think my neighbor has touched his I know it's about 50% of the noise of mine (I actually fitted an extra muffler to mine in a vain attempt to quiet it down but it wasn't only exhaust noise, the thing rattled and shook so much that all the sheet metal was loose. Make certain that when you feed power into the house that you do not energize the line. A guy I know did just that and when the lineman tested and found power coming from his generator he left his power off for well over 2 weeks. When everyone else was connected from the storm they went up to his door with a summins for reckless endangerment. The only way they didn't press charges is he had a licensed electrian put all the proper panels and switches in. They must of bent the electrians ear because the electrian charged him close to $3000.00
*If you run for over 4-5 hours straight, be sure none of the gas connections or carb screws shake loose - obvious fire hazard. Also, the manual recoil start mechanisms are prone to failure with long run periods. (learned this the hard way in years past)If you tinker with cars or are mechanically proficient, a possible alternative is to build your own 10+ kW unit. Mine is a $500 10kW Northern generator hooked to a 1200cc Datsun engine (left on the front end chassis+trailer hitch) and driven by a 2:1 chain drive, frequency controlled by a cruise control connected to the engine. Total DIY cost was about $650 (inc car battery) for this 10kW unit, plus super easy to start and as quiet as a car at fast idle.
*Jay,Whichever one you decide please heed a previous post's warning about using a transfer switch. If you were to just tie the generator supply leads together with your house wiring and the pump leads ,and you didn't shut off the circuit breaker (not hard to forget) you would backfeed the transformer on the pole outside, sending many thousands of volts down the line, possibly to an unsuspecting line repairman. The transfer switch isolates your house wiring system from the generator whenever you choose to use it.For what it's worth we used two Honda generators all summer long,8 hours a day on a site where we couldn't get temporary power, without any problem. I wouldn't buy one myself though unless I couldn't find an American made one.
*Art, I've toyed with this cruise control idea for a long time. Did you tinker with the electronics to allow a fixed setting on the cruise? (IE, not have to reset the cruise each time you fire it up). Also, did you gear it to run @ 1800? Sam
*Sam:Used an old 1964 Chrysler Imperial cruise control that is a mechanical input flyball type governor with ballscrew drive to carb, hard mechanical speed setting. Drove control with reluctance motor and gearbox (out of old copy machine)so I was actually sensing frequency rather than speed (had a military system problem a few years back where shaft torsion resonances actually put EMI on generator output -this was on a big 300 kW unit). Also did it this way as direct shaft cruise control pickup had too fast of a response time so system was unstable when starting a full 5 HP motor - the motor gearing lowered the feedback response curve crossover frequency enough to get phase stability. For normal cruise control, the mass of the car lowers the response curve crossover enough to be stable. Geared engine to generator to run at 1800 rpm. Gearing was a $14 cam gear/morse chain set for chev 350. Probably could have changed the opamp feedback in an electronic cruise control to get stability, but had the old chrysler unit and it is bulletproof. The electronics can be modified for a set speed, but likely varies with every type cruise control.PS: Harbor Freight now has the exact same generator for $50 cheaper.
*Art, Gotcha', sounds good. What's the freq stability with your current set-up? Also, (obviously) the torque curve on the Datsun engine is strong enough, down low, to support 1800?Thanks, Sam
*As for renting to test, you might not find some makes in the rental inventory. That's not a problem, it's your answer for free. We've used small generators (5kW) in this business for over 30 years, and I don't think I've ever seen anything but Honda.-- J.S.
*I wouldn't buy any porter crap anything. Oops sorry.Instead of buying that coleman, just go out and buy a honeydipper. Youre going to need it.I cringe thinking about getting those briggs and stratton crap started in icy weather. Two pulls max for the Honda. Usually only one is needed.My first generator was a coleman. I thought I was saving money. I only used it on abou three houses over a two year span before it quit generating. It sat in the barn till this year when I gave it away. My honda lasted 13 years, used and abused. I finally burned the rings out of it and had it rebuilt for 3 or $400. It runs like new again!blue
*As I was saying about Honda's and Blue....
*The transfer switch is what I was hinting at when I mentioned the extension cord or something more exciting. It is obviously necessary to have an electrician involved and by the time you do that right the cost of upgrading to a good generator like the Honda is a small percentage of the job.
*Jay,Don't forget to add a fuel stabilizer like Stabil to your gas or you will be rebuilding the carb alot.KK
*Honda generators are the only generators worth my time to post about.And absolutely run carb dry by shutting off fuel while running to stop and store. The fuel tank should be topped off and hit with stabilizer. You must run the generator once per season to really know it is going to start. Fuel should not be stored more than 6 months. I try to have no fuel in my long term stored equipment these days...or I drain it out and use elsewhere as needed.Cheap junk is just that!near the Honda stream,aj
*I quickly skimmed through all the replies.If I missed it, sorry, but one key feature the Honda generators have is the voltage regulator (as well as a low oil shutoff.)Not all generators have this feature and should not be overlooked.And, yes, Hondas are a lot quieter.I see ads for Yamaha generators - they are probably fairly quiet as well.Most Home Depot/Lowes type generators I've come across are obnoxiously loud.
*Whoever posted about buying American, apparently doesn't know that Honda generators are made in America. I too would love to buy American esp. since I have fond memories of a Briggs a Straton from my youth.
*I recently purchased an ES6500 Honda generator from a friend who had it sitting in his shop for over 3 years without use. The battery was dead but there was still gas in it... I jump-started it, and it kicked in immediately. It smoked a bit at first but hasn't since then. Today, it run for eight hours straight. Quiet, dependable, good stuff!fv
*Hey LANUKE, you sound a lot like an old friend near the stream.I wish I had the discipline to keep the maintenace up on all the gas junk. I might put the stabil in my boat this year because I had a scare last spring. The boat was acting like the fuel injectors were clogged. It took a month at the boat shop to determine that the plugs were letting electronic noise escape and messing with the computer. Total repair bill: $67.00Love those originals hondas built overseas,blue
*Blue, My 1979 Sea Ray is stored all winter and occasionally for well over a year if I get busy with something other than boating. In those 22 years I think I may have once bought some stabil, but since I've never had to touch the carb in 22 years I think that history has established that fuel treatment is not needed, at least for that boat. I just drain the water out of the block and if I'm really ambitous change the oil.
*Frenchy: Yeah, I feel like I'm doing well if I get the lawn mower into the garage for the winter. And I change the oil on my Corolla every 20,000 miles whether it needs it or not. But with 280,000 trouble free miles (never been inside the engine further than the timing belt), that's seems to be enough.Some things I DO believe for motor care: good to great quality oil (Chevron is better than others for -40F starts, 100% synthethics even better). Keep them the heck away from salt water (and salted roads) and wash it down if you didn't. Listen, really listen to any odd or new sounds. And buy more motor than you'll need and/or use less motor than you have (i.e. don't run it flat out). -David
*That's funny David. We leave an old beat up lawn mower tucked under a tree down by the lake. It's the only one that ALWAYS starts. It sputters, smokes and away it goes. blue
*I own maybe 30 or 40 things with carburetors...Have had to clean, replace or have seviced for me...maybe 20 times in 25 years...Eventually...when yaa run a $5000 outboard lean because yaa just kick it around...it will burn up while you're in the middle of the lake with 3 bikinis toss...preparation has it's bonuses.near the bikini stream,nanuke
*I have a cheap Generac with a 10HP Techumseh engine. Rated at 5kW. Only complaint so far over the past year is starting when cold. In fact, I couldn'tget it started during the winter. I had to warm it up with the exhaust from my garden tractor first...then no problem. Pull start only.I have been building my house with it over the summer...never let me down so far. It runs the 3/4 HP submerged pump without any problems.If I was a professional and depended on it, I'd spend more money. But for me, and my limited use, which by the way is really only inconvienient if it fails (no sump pumps to run for example), I have no complaints. I was worried when I paid about $600 new, but have been happy.For your sump pumps...I'd be a bit more concerned I guess.Bruce
*Good lord....send me a bikini....I'll row home if I got anything left....blue
*Guys,I have a 1950 Ferguson tractor in good repair. I can get a PTO 12,000 watt generator for it for about 1,500 or buy a 1,500 pretty substantial generator. I intend to use it for back up power and the occasional small construction project.I like the tractor idea because it starts easy and will idle a long time with it's 10 gal gas tank and wont overheat/ run out of oil. Then again I'd be using a 50 year old engine. What would you all do?ThanksFrank
*What I would do doesn't count for you because I'd need it ten miles down the road while I need the tractor at home so I'd get a separate generator. If all projected use was close to home, I'd go with the tractor mounted PTO assuming that if the tractor ever quits, I will still get a replacement for it.
*There is a website and a danged good one at that, at http://www.tractorbynet.com. Its devoted to tractors, attachments, rural living, etc.PTO generators have been discussed there often over the years. There is thread right now on the subject. When I got a tractor it was sized to run a 15KW to 20KW generator. The rule of thumb is that you need two PTO horsepower for each KW. Thats PTO HP not engine. And you don't run the engine at idle you have to kick it up to PTO RPMs for your tractor. Generator engines have to run at a given speed to produce quality power. If they don't run at that speed you can burn out motors. The tractor RPMs really have to be kept constant so that the generator works correctly. Hope this helps...Dan
*That info makes a dedicated engine look better.
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I have a generator question. I live in the northeast. It's not uncommon to have a falling snow covered limb take out a power line every few years. And when it happens my home becomes paralyzed due to the fact that I have a sewer ejection pump. No electricity, no ejection pump I can't use any water because it will over flow the tank and flood the basement.
The pump motor is a 110-volt, ¾ HP, dual capacitor start motor. I've been told to purchase at least a 3000 watts generator. I've found two different models in my area for about $475. A Porter-Cable, 3000W or a Coleman 5000W. I don't need any bells and whistles on the generator (auto starts, etc.) I'll just manually connect and run the generator as needed.
Is it worth sacrificing 2000W to purchase the Porter-Cable or are these low-end generators all about the same. Any thoughts about which manufacture makes a better generator?
Thanks for your help.
Jay Mauksch,
[email protected]