In a house we’re finishing we’ve got a an extra job now where our client has fired the floor installer for not ever showing up and wants us to install the flooring. Its a 1/2″ thick Bruce engineered wood flooring product called Riverside Plank and I’ve been reading the installation instructions over this weekend since the material was delivered on friday and it says it can be either glued down or stapled.
So what is the preferred method? Glued down or stapled? And why?
The room we installing it in is above the garage and has a solid dry floor but our sub-floor in half the room is doug fir porch flooring and the other half is 1/2″ ply with a 1/4 luan glued and nailed on to even it to the same surface height.
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Glue down can get very messy, especially if you happen to loose your balance and put your hand down in the glue you just troweled down. The mfgr says it can be glued down cuz it's an engineered product and some people are restricted to useing that material and method over concrete slabs where nail/staple is not an option.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
use the staples with the wood deck at your site glue down is a mess like Ed said the panels slide around in the glue and it can be hard to hold straight lines, or keep from knocking earlier panels out of place when tapping in the most recent one get some mallets from Powernail Co. wood handle, iron head w replaceable white rubber face white rubber is non marking you'll have to pull a cleanup if black rubber is used these mallets can strike on the t&g edge or the finish surface to drive panels tight, won't cause damage to panels
if you glue, nail down an initial straight edge like strips of 8' plywood using the machine cut edge set it far enough away from wall so you can remove it after and backfill with full width panels of the flooring material Bostik's Best is good glue, but stinks awful.... staples.. air power
these mallets can strike on the t&g edge or the finish surface to drive panels tight, won't cause damage to panels
on Bruce they will....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
i stay away from Bruce too don't think the quality is there anymore, just mass marketing
prefer not to use Bruce flooring...
so defer to another installer....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Wow I saw this topic last night on my last visit online and just let it go figuring there would certainly be other people who would answer on this. Well the answers I see here aren't at all what I would have expected or said so I guess I have to speak up.
I'm going to be the iconoclast here as say glued down with this product is the preferred method.
I know exactly the product your talking about because I would say we've had a surge where we've put down a fair amount of it in the last two years. The first time we put it down we put it down we put it down glued because that was the way the builder we were doing it for specified it. And I agreed with his logic and we've put it down that way ever since.
The logic is first of all in the products specifications (found this link to them online: bruce.engineered.glue.pdf in case anyone wants to read along) it says
A stapled installation may end up squeaking or making noise whereas a glued floor will not. We are really primarily stair specialists and this fits right in with some of the empirical discovery we had building, fixing and repairing stairs. Joinery that is just or purely mechanically fastened with nails or screws is more prone to developing squeaks where glued work is not.
I think this is especially true in the situation that John NYCT is describing too. His floor is going to be installed over two dissimilar surfaces; "doug fir porch flooring" and "plywood". The fir flooring I don't care how old and dry it is will move (expand and contract) and the ply wont (or will at least only move minimally). In a glued down installation there is some elasticity in the glue which will allow the sub floor and finish floor to move with respect to each other where with a mechanical fastener such as a staple there is no elasticity. That movement will want to work the staple loose and that is what will lead to potential squeaking.
Installing an engineered floor in a glue down application is a lot like installing tile over a crack isolation membrane such as NobleSeal. With noble seal the elasticity in the neoprene layer (I think it is neoprene) allows the tile to move at a different rate and/or direction than the substrate thereby isolating it from potential cracks. The elasticity in the glue allows the same kind of micro-movement in the engineered wood flooring.
As for being messy if your generally messy then yes the glue will be a mess but I it certainly doesn't have to be a messy job. It's certainly not any worse than a typical tile installation. Perhaps the one drawback might be that a glue-down installation takes longer than a staple-down one but I'm thinking it maybe just 10% longer or at tops 25% longer but I would have to check our records to find out for sure.
As for ed2's comment "...the panels slide around in the glue and it can be hard to hold straight lines" we haven't found that to be a problem at all. Perhaps were using a different glue because the glue we have used has a high tack to it and the stuff didn't slide much at all so you actually had to have the tongues almost inserted into the grooves because you really couldn't slide the pieces much to get them into place. Maintaining a straight line was never a problem.
As for "get some mallets from Powernail Co. wood handle, iron head w replaceable white rubber face white rubber is non marking you'll have to pull a cleanup if black rubber is used these mallets can strike on the t&g edge or the finish surface to drive panels tight, won't cause damage to panels" That's good advice if you're going to install full 3/4 thick solid flooring but that's absolutely the wrong tool for installing engineered flooring. That's like using a framing gun to install trim work. In fact using such a tool on an engineered floor installation would probably void the warranty if not destroy the installation in the first place. The tool they (Bruce) specifies is
Those are pneumatic staplers that shoot 1" staples. Powernail does make a nailer that they say can be used to install a 3/8" thick engineered floor but I haven't ever seen one in actual use. I have however seen other subs try and use the more typical Powernail and PortaNail installation tools on engineered flooring and destroy them in the process. I believe that Bruce specifies the Stanley-Bostitch LHF Stapler (that's the tool we use (we actually glue and staple our installations) and in a pinch we've also used our Bostitch SX150K Narrow Crown Staplers too) and the Senco SLS20HF because the force that drives the fastener can be precisely set whereas using a hammer driven flooring tool it cannot.
As for quality issues with Bruce flooring we don't have any. I think it's a great company with a great product (the engineered flooring). I don't know what the complaints the other fellows here have relate to.
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What's going on here?I just disagree with everybody here and no one is challenging me?What's up? Has the fight gone outta you guys?Man,.... this is no fun......
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jerrald- saw your comments re: install of engineered flooring and would hope that you're better informed as a stairbuilder been factory trained along w two of my guys and perform the warranty work in my region for two manufacturers
i specialize in flooring; solid wood product/ refinishing/ repairs, also a great deal of laminate and engineered, but no stairwork i'm not trained in stairwork, so best to stay out of something i know a little, but not a great deal about my guys have applied engineered and laminate not only to lots of residential work, but condo projects and an entire mall (over 44K)as well with all that sq. footage, no damaged flooring or callbacks, something to take pride in
re: your comments and post of an engineered manufacturer's liability disclaimer warning of potential "squeaking" w the use of mechanical fasteners i haven't encountered it on my jobs, nor have i heard of it happening anywhere else probably due to proper use of the dedicated foam underlayment required by the manufacturers along w appropriate fasteners
flooring staples are designed and coated for superior performance they hold better than flooring nails, as anyone who has demo'd both will attest to re: your post...
"and in a pinch we've also used our Bostitch SX150 Narrow Crown Staplers too"
like chewing gum, these are not appropriate flooring fasteners not designed or coated for that work, it may have been expedient for you, but it's not so good for your customer that type of shoddy work gives our industry a bad name
i recommended staples for the floor in the post because the "subfloor" is both plywood and fir t&g flooring fir t&g is not a suitable underlayment for gluedown; the engineered manufacturer will cover defects in their product, NOT poor workmanship t&g flooring (and fir) is prone to movement glue applied enters voids at the seams, however small with a strong humidity spike, i.e. very wet springtime or extended rains, floor expansion expels glue and/or cups edges of the underlying flooring that movement can break the glue bond but also pushes up against the engineered and may open seams
in regard to your post that:
"Installing an engineered floor in a gluedown application is a lot like installing tile over a crack isolation membrane such as Noble Seal. With noble seal the elasticity in the neoprene layer... allows the tile to move at a different rate and/or direction than the substrate thereby isolating it from potential cracks"
It's nothing like that at all Noble Seal is a solid membrane placed under tile... flooring glue is a liquid that will seep into openings in the fir t&g and has the potential to cause cupping of the fir and failure of the engineered floor above it fir t&g is not a suitable underlayment for gluedown its use will void the warranty on the flooring if there is a failure Jerrald , that is hack work sometimes knowing a little can be a dangerous thing
i performed a warranty inspection with a manufacturers rep on a gluedown of engineered over t&g oak flooring that cupped they covered t&g to get rid of open seams in the hardwood during extended rains, the underlying floor swelled and cupped due to the glue that flowed into the seams end result was opened finish seams across the engineered floor that didn't close i expected noise too, but that didn't enter the picture, probably cushioned by the glue mfg. rep denied claim due to poor install workmanship
re: movement of panels, i'm really, really glad you have not experienced it, but it's a common problem with gluedown installs, one the new guy should know about if it should one day occur to you, nailing straight edges of plywood down, sized to backfill w a full panel after it's removed makes the job go smoothly and keeps the lines clean a trick to prevent movement w gluedown on concrete is to apply those straight edge strips w a hilti gun like i said, done mucho laminate and engineered; lot of product out there, and not inexpensive goods, that are not exactly "tap 'n click" it's a common problem to have the panels move on a gluedown, especially w the first 3-4 courses which is the critical layout for your job
i was told about the use of rubber face mallets to drive panels together at a manufacturers school they're aware of the difficulty of getting panels tight the straps for that purpose can be ineffective, and if they let go can chip pieces of the finish surface, so i don't mention them to newbies you did give me a good laugh with the post about rubber mallets:
"Thats like using a framing gun to install trimwork In fact using such a tool on an engineered floor installation would probably void the warranty if not destroy the installation in the first place The tool they(Bruce) specifies is....Stanley-Bostitch stapler"
You sound like a "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" kind of guy, Jerrald Nope, doesn't void the warranty damage voids the warranty beginning of post tells you how much of this flooring we've installed w/o problem comes from taking our time, good layout and knowing what we're doing in comparison, you state above that the tool they specify is the ...stapler? actually, that's just for fastening, not driving problem panels together trying to use a stapler for that purpose WOULD damage the flooring and void warranty
Stick w the stairs, Jerrald hopefully you know what you're talking about there try not to use too much Noble Seal membrane on them
Thanks for the memories,
Ed
Edited 12/20/2004 3:26 am ET by ed2
Ahh a spirited debate,.. I was wondering where it was.
ed2 - "saw your comments re: install of engineered flooring and would hope that you're better informed as a stairbuilder been factory trained along w two of my guys and perform the warranty work in my region for two manufacturers "
Well I hope I'm (personally) better informed as a stair builder but that doesn't make my company uninformed regarding flooring. In the last year ago we hired a fellow who along with his brother ran a flooring business here for 38 years. They sold the business a few years ago when his older brother retired to Florida and he came to work with us for fun in a semi-retired mode just to do something new and different which is what we're really all about. While we do a lot of stairs and railings what we really do is we do the projects no one else wants to whether they're stairs, railings, themed environments , trade show exhibits or what have you.
We first met years ago when we designed and fabricated decorative inlays for floors they were installing for a builder we do a lot of work for. Working with us now he gives us knowledge we wouldn't otherwise have. It's our intention to use Ed (our Ed) to build a flooring business around transferring his knowledge and experience to the next generation of craftspeople and he gets to play around and have fun doing things he's never done before.
ed2 -"re: your comments and post of an engineered manufacturer's liability disclaimer warning of potential "squeaking" w the use of mechanical fasteners i haven't encountered it on my jobs, nor have i heard of it happening anywhere else probably due to proper use of the dedicated foam underlayment required by the manufacturers along w appropriate fasteners "Ya know I've never seen or heard of an actual case of an engineered floor squeaking either but hey it was the manufacturer that wrote that disclaimer and they didn't make that same disclaimer regarding the glue down installations. So given my experience with seeing what kinds of stairs squeak and what kinds don't I think can draw a parallel conclusion having to do with glue vs. mechanical fastening. Other than a 50+ year old stair that was glued with hide glue (the kind you had to cook) I've never seen a glued up stair that squeaks (at least not yet).
I'm (we're) right in agreement with you regarding the benefits of a foam underlayment. My Ed agrees on this too so that why I say"we" regarding the foam but he (and I) (and many of the builders we done work for) want or prefer their engineered floors glued and stapled not just stapled.
ed2 -"re: your post..."and in a pinch we've also used our Bostitch SX150 Narrow Crown Staplers too" like chewing gum, these are not appropriate flooring fasteners not designed or coated for that work, it may have been expedient for you, but it's not so good for your customer that type of shoddy work gives our industry a bad name "
Take a step back up and read what I wrote earlier a little bit morecarefully thoroughly. In the same sentence where I said "and in a pinch we've also used our Bostitch SX150 Narrow Crown Staplers too" it says:
Perhaps I should have clarified it for you that where we have used our Narrow Crown stapler "in a pinch" was when the flooring stapler was out of the shop and we were making up landing platforms. We have used NC stapler to essentially hold the flooring until the glue sets up. We've even used a brad nailer. In both cases it the glue that is holding the flooring not the NC staples or the brads so you can rest easy at night we're not besmirching the industry. And we guarantee our stairs wont ever squeak.
ed2 -re: fir t&g is not [my emphasis added] a suitable underlayment for gluedown
It certainly is suitable. Quoting from pg. 3 of the Bruce spec sheet again.
It's not preferred but it is approved as "Existing solid wood flooring".
ed2 - regarding: "It's nothing like that at all Noble Seal is a solid membrane placed under tile... flooring glue is a liquid that will seep into openings in the fir t&g and has the potential to cause cupping of the fir and failure of the engineered floor above it fir t&g is not a suitable underlayment for gluedown its use will void the warranty on the flooring if there is a failure Jerrald , that is hack work sometimes knowing a little can be a dangerous thing"
You completely missed the point I was making. Yeah Noble Seal is a solid membrane and flooring glue is a liquid but they both serve as crack isolation membranes providing an elastic layer between the flooring and the substrate. That was the point! Perhaps I should have said Latitcrete Blue 32 (I think it's called Blue 32) or Mapei's Mapelastic (they're liquids) but I couldn't remember them last night. And listen argue your point passionalty and vehemently but don't call me a hack and I wont call you one. And especially don't call me a hack unless your 100% sure you have you specifications correct and I have them wrong which obviously I didn't. Geez I even posted a link to the spec sheet.
ed2 - "i was told about the use of rubber face mallets to drive panels together at a manufacturers school they're aware of the difficulty of getting panels tight " We've never had problems getting the panels tight but we have had trouble getting them to lay flat so that the tongues would align with the grooves.
My comment regarding "Thats like using a framing gun to install trimwork In fact using such a tool on an engineered floor installation would probably void the warranty if not destroy the installation in the first place The tool they(Bruce) specifies is....Stanley-Bostitch stapler" relates to a project we did a while back where there was a "hack" contractor installing flooring and his guys instead of "fitting" the engineered flooring pieces together we trying to smash/drive them together with mallets. Yes it is damage that voids the warrantee not the literal use of a mallet driven installation tool but you certainly can't smash a piece into place with a flooring stapler or overdrive the fastener. You also don't need a mallet to drive engineered flooring tight. You just need get the panel to lie flat. That would take pushing it down, not hitting it.
ed2 - "You sound like a "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" kind of guy, Jerrald."
Interesting you got that from that post? Cómo? I told that to my troops this morning. Actually I printed this out and they all got a laugh out that one reading it.
Ed (my Ed that is) and I went down to ProSource (do you use ProSource?) this morning to look at some flooring and got to talking about this glue or staple issue with a few other groups of contractors on the loading dock there. To be completely honest (and seven guys is hardly a valid statistical sampling) the vote I think was 50/50 on the glue or staple issue (I'm excluding myself from the sample). We'll still stand by our preference for glue over staples for a standalone application and use glue and staples when we can and feel it's appropriate. And still we think something you wrote last night even supports our logic and rational. Regarding that glued installation that failed that you inspected you wrote:
Perhaps that's the elasticity in the glue that we think makes it a better squeak proof installation fastener?
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Thanks for the info Ed.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.