I hope some of you sparkies can ‘splain me somethin’.
I pulled 1wire into new underground conduit to feed two lamps on top of cinder block posts. Existing 14ga switched circuit went to an external j-box. From there I pulled 14ga through new PVC conduit to a single gang weather box with a Leviton Pro back-wired outlet. I ran a 2-foot branch in 1/2″ flex through the inside of the post to a 4″ box on top (masons later installed a limestone cap over all) and a 12′ continuation of conduit to another 1-gang box and outlet at the base of the second post, with another 2′ run in flex to a 4″ box and a continuation conduit to two more outlets (for christmas lights) downstream. I tested the outlets and got two amber lights and found 117v between black/white and black/ground at both lamp boxes.
Two weeks later the HO got his lamps installed and as soon as he turned on the switch the first light flickered and then all went dead. I found a 15A breaker (with two toggles connected by a bridge) had tripped. I removed the downstream lamp, turned on the switch, and the other lamp and the two outlets worked fine, so I told the HO that he had a bad lamp.
HO took his lamp to the store, where they tested it and pronounced it in perfect condition. They said that my wiring is tripping the GFCI.
GFCI? Is that what that double-throw breaker is?
What do you think could be the trouble?
Thanks,
Replies
"GFCI? Is that what that double-throw breaker is?"
A double throw switch is one that makes a contact in each position. A 3-way switch is a single pole, double throw switch.
I belive that you mean a 2 pole breaker.
With a two pole breaker that sounds like a multi-wire circuit.
The circuit needs to be traced and see what is on the leg. And to check the connections on the neutral. Kind of sounds like you might have lost a neutral.
But anyone that does not know the difference between a 2 pole breaker and a GFCI breaker should not be workin on a circuit with either.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"With a two pole breaker that sounds like a multi-wire circuit."Three-wire circuit sounds right. There were two switched 14ga wires, a black and a red, in the j-box and both shut down when the breaker popped."Kind of sounds like you might have lost a neutral."When I measured 117v from black to white, didn't that prove that the neutral was ok? At least two weeks ago it was. The outlet from which the short lamp branch comes off, tested with two amber lights today, indicating that hot, white and ground connections were all still good to that point at least."But anyone that does not know the difference between a 2 pole breaker and a GFCI breaker should not be workin on a circuit with either."I know what a 2 pole breaker is, even if I used the wrong name for it, but I hadn't seen one that had so much space between the poles before - maybe 3/4". I hadn't seen a GFCI breaker until I looked it up online tonight. Clearly what I saw today had no reset button on it so it's not GFCI.So, absent a GFCI, what could pop that breaker if the lamp is really ok? The HO said that the lamp store service guy tested by connecting the leads with a pair of alligator clips on an extension cord. If so, he would have had no ground connection and if one of the three candelabra sockets were shorted to the case, the lamp would still have worked without tripping his breaker, right? BruceT
That last paragraph is correct, the way I read it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"When I measured 117v from black to white, didn't that prove that the neutral was ok? At least two weeks ago it was."Not always. Depends on what is used to measure it and if there where anything other load on at the time.Most bad neutral connection are not complete opens, but high resistance."I know what a 2 pole breaker is, even if I used the wrong name for it, but I hadn't seen one that had so much space between the poles before - maybe 3/4". I hadn't seen a GFCI breaker until I looked it up online tonight. Clearly what I saw today had no reset button on it so it's not GFCI."Did this take two slots, no more, no less?"The HO said that the lamp store service guy tested by connecting the leads with a pair of alligator clips on an extension cord. If so, he would have had no ground connection and if one of the three candelabra sockets were shorted to the case, the lamp would still have worked without tripping his breaker, right?"Yes, that is possible.Didn't you do a continuety check on it and the wiring when you have the problem.That should have been the first step..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for your patience and observations.You said, "Didn't you do a continuety check on it and the wiring when you have the problem."That hadn't occurred to me. You mean, I presume, that I should have tested continuity between hot lead of lamp and its ground wire; 0 ohms on multi meter = short?I did no testing on the lamp except to visually inspect the wiring I could see. The candelabra sockets were covered by metal sleeves that would have been difficult to remove. Since the HO would take his lamp to the store's repair people I went no further.I asked, "When I measured 117v from black to white, didn't that prove that the neutral was ok?"You answered, "Not always. Depends on what is used to measure it and if there where anything other load on at the time."Can you explain a little further? There were no other loads at the time, just the wires I pulled and the outlets I had connected. I used a Commercial Electric HDM350, inexpensive digital multimeter from Home Depot. Thanks,BruceT
so much space between the poles before - maybe 3/4".
Pull the breaker and see if it is on opposite legs, (adjacent buss connections,) or on the same leg, (every other buss connection.)
tested with two amber lights today,
What's so special about amber lights? When I have to use a lamp fixture to test with, I just grab whatever is handy. Do you use two in case one lamp is bad?SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I think that he used one of the 3 light plug in testers with 2 amber and 1 read Neon light.Properly wired the 2 ambers are lite, but not the red.I know that for some mis-wires they indicate the wrong problem..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ahhh. Thanks.
So what's up with that ganged breaker set with 3/4" between them?SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"So what's up with that ganged breaker set with 3/4" between them?"A regular ganged breaker can't have a splace between them. Maybe it is a homemade tie bar.It might be a quad breaker, but I would think that he would mention the other breakers.For those that don't know a quad breaker is two tandem breakers tied together. The 2 inter poles are on different legs and thus can be used for 240.The two outer legs most often don't have a tie bar and thus are 2 independent 120 circuit.But there are also ones with tie bars on the outter pair also..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
On some of the older ganged breakers the tie bar was fairly long and loose. Probably only caused both sides to trip in theory.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Thanks again for the help. See post above to SamT for resolution of sorts.
BruceT
"So what's up with that ganged breaker set with 3/4" between them?"Since this "spacey" 2-pole breaker seems to intrigue you guys, I'll take a closer look tomorrow when I'm back out there and verify that its poles are on different buses and take a picture too. It may be using just two slots but with narrow toggles offset to the outer edges of each half. The bar between them did not look homemade.BruceT
Bruce,
It's because we're not there, so we're making all kinds of WAGs based on what you have said.
Like any other remote trouble shooting, ya gotsta start with the basics; Did you plug it in? Did you flip the oh en / oh eff eff? switch kinda stuff.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Your WAG's sound like educated guesses to me, and I appreciate them.Now for the kicker - When I talked to the HO yesterday to arrange to go back and check it again, I mentioned offhand that I might just connect it up again to check it out. Today he called to say no need to come out again, that he had re-connected the lamp and it works fine now. Lamp store guy noted the white goo on the wires (from the wire nuts the installer had used) and suggested wiping it off as that sometimes caused problems. HO wiped the wires, substituted ordinary wire nuts, and all is well.I guess we'll never know why it shorted out before or why it's ok now.Thanks again anyway, guys.BruceT