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Could’nt help notice the mention of the framing square in the May/00 issue of FH.Having built several 3500+ sg. ft homes over an 18-19 yr period I’ll never be able to say enough good things in one post.From the most fundamental measuring and marking to most complex roof system the framing square has to be the most valuable item on the job, familiarity with the common,hip + valley per foot run tables will increase a lead or layout guys value tenfold.While other guys are fiddling around which way their “pivot point”is or goes, experienced layout/lead guys will have the length,pattern and count established.A must buy for young guys starting out.The most valuable part of the package is that little booklet that comes with it,don’t loose that until the principles and tables have been memorized!
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Steve,
I just bought one of our head carpenters a new one because he left his at our shop one day and who knows where it is now. Probably it will show up in a month or two. This new one was a Sands brand - like the level company - it's a great tool. Easy to read and looks like it can take the abuse. I think I'll get me one too. I also need a new 4' level and would like to have the good 'ole red Sands, but they seem to be hard to find these days.
Ed. Williams
*I think another must buy for a budding carpenter who's just bought his first framing square is a good pair of stair guages.I don't recommend the garden variety hexagonal guages most hardware stores carry though. I much prefer those made by Starrett, the No.111's. (see enclosure) They make the square much more convenient to use. They are much easier to locate accurately. They're the best $15 bucks I've spent on hand tools yet.Ed, I also agree with the Sands levels. I have a two and four footer in the truck at all times. After all "Sands levels tell the truth"!Dick Streff
*roof framer's bible- money in the bank.
*What's so great about Sands levels? Are the vials adjustable? That's what I'm lookin' for.
*So that's how you fix out of plumb walls. Just a simple twist of the vial and wall's right with the world.
*Do any of you guys think there is a better spirit level made than a Stabila? If there is i've not seen run across it. Never heard of a Sands.joe d
*Hi Jim, Have you seen the adjustable vial levels made by Starrett?
*Bought one of those 2 piece Levelution levels with adjustable vials to hang doors with last year.Breaks into a 4' and a 30". Thought having the 30" right there for head jambs would be really nifty but now you more experienced door hangers have convinced me to just plumb the hinge jamb and do everything else to the reveal. Still like having a 6 1/2 level that can ride up in the front of my little truck though. Wish I had got the soft case they make for it.JonC
*JonC.,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*I OWN MANY GREAT AND HANDY TOYS(TOOLS)and have yet to out-trust my instinct As a finish carpenter and upper level furniture style cabinet builder all of the handiest tools don,t mean nothing if you can't read a tape measure and use the brain GOD gave you. down here in atl. on a 1900 restor it's not square or plumb ...those tools are handy but not my first choice
*I've been looking for those style square guages for more than a few years. I've got the hex style somewhere in the barn. I used them once or twice about 20 years ago.I don't think I'd actually use the No. 111's but I wouldn't mind owning them.blue
*Make sure you hollow out the inside corner of the sands square GACC Dallas. The square is kinda brittle and will crack rather quickly if you don't hit it with a round file.blue
*Tex,Never had much faith in the adjustable tpye of levels. First of all you shouldn't have to adjust it....it sould come from the factory already adjusted true. Secondly, what do you adjust it to? How do you know what your adjusting to is level? I guess you could hold it up next to your Sands level and then adjust the vials. Sands levels have been around forever. It used to be the standard mark of a good carpenter. They are getting harder for find now. Stablia is a good level. A lot of the guys who work with us have them.Ed. Williams
*Its easy Ed. You just switch the level end for end and if it doesnt read exactly the same both ways its out of whack. You dont even need a level surface. This is also how you know if you've got to send the Stabila back to the factory. A fun way to kill time in a tool dept is to go sort their cheap 4' builders levels into 2 stacks, reads true and doesnt read true, then call it to their attention and see how they deal with it. Bet they'll be one big stack again as soon as you're out the door.JonC
*I once took an American wood level to the stores back room and laid out cross hairs on the wall to check plumb and level. The store clerk was accommodating, and we never did find two that read the same. I lost all faith in wood levels that day. I bought one of those electronic 4' levels. It's okay, but I still don't trust it either. Come to think of it, theres not a spirit level that I do trust over it's length. Most levels get close enough for what house carpenters do anyway. I'm not sure there is a house out there that is perfectly plumb and level. When you go into some of these older homes to remodel, you have to leave the level in the truck and just hope to work to a straight line.Ed. Williams
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I have a 4' Sands level of cast aluminum, 3 window,elliptical bubble, which was given to me by my carpentry mentor in 1974. If anyone can give me any resources where I can have new lenses, vials, and glazing done, or any contact to Sands Level Co., I would be delighted. After many years of abuse, the vials are hurting, but the frame is true. In 25 years I have never found a level to match the Sands.
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I suspect the eyesight of the user is very critical to the accuracy obtained by the user. Available light can also be a limiting factor.
I agree Ed you should not trust your levels. That is why i check mine regularly.
Now i remember i was given a 2' sands level over 20 years ago. The glass was broken but the vials weren't. Since the vials lines had been rubbed off i put new ones on and replaced the protective glass.
Later i had a brass bound mahogany level that warped. I ripped the brass banding off, laminated it with birdseye maple and foursquared it parralel with the spirit vials. Damn thing warped again so i gave it to my buddy.
If you want a wall to be plumb, then use a plumb bob plate to plate.
joe d
*Plumb Bob,Now that's how you plumb a wall.Ed. Williams
*exactly... unless it's honking twenty MPH... then yu can use ur PL#3 Laser..if yu can get it away from the guys..you guys shud chuck them pry bar thingys with the little spirit level thinga ma bobs on each end...
*I'm doing a bathroom redo on a 100 year old house. The floor had a platform raised about 5 inches at the tub & toilet. During demo, we found that one section of joists had rotted out some time ago. They had put a 2x4 ledger on the exterior wall and put in 2x6 joists 30" on center to bridge the mess below. The ceiling above this section had fallen 3". The whole room is now 12' x 19'. We reframed and 'leveled' the area, but the floor in the remaining part of the room is all over the place. We used a laser to get a level line around the room to get a start for the wainscotting, but I have been using a 6' Johnson aluminum box level for a few months now, and I've been real happy with it. It was only $50 compared to the $120 for the Stabila. All new closet walls and doors are plumb and the bad ceiling section has been dropped and leveled and it looks great. It was also great for shimming out stud to meet the existing plaster and lath, to prep for drywall. I've got ol' Lumpy, my old wood/brass 4' hanging on the shop wall for nostalgia.
*I FOUND THE SANDS LEVELS!!!!There is an old lumber yard (not far from my shop) that carries them. I don't shop there, because the lumber they carry stinks and the service is about the same unless you speak Spanish, but I went in there for some glue and there they were......hanging on the wall. I bought a 48" ($50) and a 24" ($30). I can't believe it. I feel like a carpenter again with my red Sands level.Sands Levels Tell The Truth,Ed. Williams
*Ted,I did a little searching and came up with a homepage for Sand's:>http://www.neodesha.com/sands/Nothing about repairing levels, but there is an email address to contact them. Let us know if they do repairs. I need a couple lenses replaced.When I lived in Lincoln, NE earlier in the 90's there was a small, downtown type hardware store (you know, the good kind thats packed to the rafters) and they used to repair levels like the Sands. Maybe check around your area if it's sizeable enough and you may find someone local.Good Luck,Dick Streff
*Congratulations on your find! I've only found one store in my region that carries them. But I found Sand's web page as I posted above. So if I can't find them locally in the future at least I can contact them for the nearest source.I feel like kind of a traitor lately though. A couple weeks ago I came across a Plumb-It extendable level on eBay for a price I couldn't resist. It extends from 5'3" to 13'10" and seems quite nicely made. Just the thing for plumbing walls.>http://www.plumb-it.com/It's probably not as accurate as my four foot Sand's, but it beats the hell out of culling through the 2x4's trying to find a reasonable plumb stick. And beings I'm out here on the "Great Plains" you can damned well forget about finding a day calm enough to use a plumb bob. Those are few and far between.Dick Streff
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Could'nt help notice the mention of the framing square in the May/00 issue of FH.Having built several 3500+ sg. ft homes over an 18-19 yr period I'll never be able to say enough good things in one post.From the most fundamental measuring and marking to most complex roof system the framing square has to be the most valuable item on the job, familiarity with the common,hip + valley per foot run tables will increase a lead or layout guys value tenfold.While other guys are fiddling around which way their "pivot point"is or goes, experienced layout/lead guys will have the length,pattern and count established.A must buy for young guys starting out.The most valuable part of the package is that little booklet that comes with it,don't loose that until the principles and tables have been memorized!