We just had some granite countertops installed. Unfortunately, we were very disappointed with the degree of polish for the countertop. If you look at it on an angle, it looks like it has “pock marks” all over it, so that it actually looks dirty.
Some have suggested that it just needs sealer, but I’m skeptical. I don’t think sealer is supposed to change the appearance of the granite.
Question, when the granite installers get the slabs, do they polish the “field” part of the stone, or do they just cut the edges? Who is responsible for the general surface not being sufficiently polished? Is it the installers fault, or should the slab have been more polished from the wholesaler?
Replies
Did you not have the opportunity to view the slabs b/4 fabrication?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
It's not reasonably possible to eliminate all the pock marks in granite, it's the nature of the stone. The slabs generally come polished from the wholesaler. The local shops cut them to size, do the edges and give it a going over, they don't re-surface the entire piece. The "open grain" of granite is why you use a sealer, to help keep stuff from getting in the pock marks. There are two common surface preps used for granite, one is polished, the other is called honed. The honed finish is matte like and the inclusions are less visible. Some types of granite are more open than others. It comes from all over the world, so individual mills will put out different products, but a perfect surface isn't going to happen with granite.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
It's my understand that the quality of the stone comes first long prior to it being cut for your job. As mentioned, did you view the slab prior to it being cut. Some shops require you to sign off on it before they place it on the saw table.
I saw the slab, standing vertical, in a poorly lit and dusty warehouse. My understanding was that we were checking for color, any major imperfections, etc. I didn't know we were supposed to be checking to see that it was actually smooth.
The granite we got is Dakota Mahogany, which I have seen many places, and nowhere does it look pock marked like ours does.
I've got Dakota in my kitchen. What you describe is completely normal.
Be happy with what you got. It's one of the better ones for not needing sealer.
I have that stone also in our kitchen. It does a few marks in it but nothing that I would say is a problem.
Ours has pock marks pretty uniformly throughout. I assume yours does not look like that?
If the granite has pock marks all the polishing in the world will only reveal more pock marks. If you have a problem with that I suggest you complain to who actually made it.
It does not sound like you are describing something that is anything abnormal. It is a natural product, and is not going to be perfectly flat with no pits. Sealer would not make it go away, nor would some extra polishing. Go back and look at other slabs of the same stone and see if yours is markedly different from them. If so, perhaps you have something to complain about, on the other hand you did check the stone first.
If it is a characteristic that is usual for this type of stone, I'm amazed that nobody thought to point that out. Every other granite I've seen looks as smooth as glass, as does the sample of Dakota Mahogany in the showroom.
The showroom sample may have had the pock marks filled and polished, like travertine. or it could be a buildup of wax."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Granite is composed mainly of three types of minerals, quartz, feldspar and mica. The pock marks you see are actually a result of polishing the stone. When polished, the mica being brittle, breaks out of the stone creating the pin holes. This is very natural and occurs in every piece of natural granite.
Well, my downstairs neighbors have granite in their kitchen, and theirs looks like a piece of glass.
Are you sure it's a natural stone? Only man made stones polish up that way because they only use the quartz and a resin. I'm sure if you look close enough there will be some pin holes. It's just the way it is. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Don't take this the wrong way, but... you were asked to approve the slab for a reason, so you would get what you want. Looking at a slab is not like looking at paint chips.., you're getting the whole picture.I'm a bit confused on the way you bought the slab. You mentioned a wholesaler. No countertop companies I work with wholesale to homeowners. Every place I deal with either fabricates the tops, or has them fabricated (some kitchen and bath stores do this), and then installers, whoa, install them. I don't know anyone who polishes slabs. I doubt anybody wholesaling is going to explain much.Not razzing you, but I can't count the times I've been on jobs where the clients said "if only I had known..." Matter of fact, I'm going to take 4 12/0 x 8/0 Marvin sliders out of a new house. The clients picked the doors out after seeing them. They sat on site for a month before installation. The clients saw them every day, they live next door. Day we put them in, the HO'ette said she couldn't live with them??? They have a round over sticking that they never noticed... GC is going to eat it...Everybody needs to do their homework.Could you post some pics of your tops?... you know, worth a thousand words. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
The installer sent us to the wholesaler to approve the slab because color can vary from lot to lot and to make sure there were no big fissures in it. There was no mention of checking to make sure the slab was smooth. Of course AFTER the installation, he tells me that it's important to check the slab for pits, because some of the Dakota Mahogany is pitted, but some is not. Would have been helpful piece of information to share beforehand. I've actually been to quite a few granite places, and even looked at slabs at two different places. Not one of them mentioned anything about checking for pitting - most likely because if they did so they'd have trouble selling the ones with pits.
How much did you pay for the tops? A bunch, right. I understand nobody warned you about pits. You'd look over a car... even do some research first, I'll bet... So, please show some pics, I'd like to see how bad the pitting is. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I will try and post pictures when I get a chance. It's not an easy thing to capture on camera, unfortunately, as the flash causes problems.
There was no discussion of different grades of the same stone. That's something I have never heard of from any of the places I went. I certainly was aware that different types of stone had different prices (most places had 5 different cost classifications), but I never saw anywhere that had different prices for the same stone. Certainly saying "This one without any pits is $X and this slab with some pitting is $Y" would have been helpful. But, as far as I could tell, they were all the same price.
Next time I'll make the salesperson pull out all 10 one ton slabs of granite just to see which one I like the best. Lesson learned.
It would have helped if you had been advised in advance about the commonalities of your type of stone. But the onus is on you since you "picked" out the slabs.
I had a customer that wasn't advised (and I sure as hell didn't know) that their certain type of stone always will "feel" like there's a fine grit on it. Not really a stone dust, but the feel was there. If I get back I'll look REAL close to see if there's a boatload of microscopic pits there that give it that feeling.
So, other than the pits, how do you like the way it looks in your kitchen?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The bigger issue for me is that no one told me that the way the stone looked in terms of its degree of polish would be the final way it would look in our kitchen. In picking out a "slab", we mistakenly thought that they would take that rough material, cut it up and polish it so that it looked like the countertops in the showroom.
Next time I'll make the salesperson pull out all 10 one ton slabs of granite just to see which one I like the best. Lesson learned.I know you're being facetious, but actually, that's the deal... and like cal asked, how do you like it, otherwise? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
but the ones with pitting sell for less than the ones without... Did they tell you that?It's sort of like dealing with a used car salesman. Hind sight and knowing what to look for on your next project. I personally know a guy who wants to do the best. This guy picks out the slabs and shows them himself for his shop. His prices are also reflecting on this hand holding experience. I'm not bad mouthing him in any way. I'm just saying that you get what you pay for. I did not use him for my personal home.That said, we had to call him back on a large brand new kitchen due to a leak that was un-noticed for a few months. When it was discovered the floor had buckled and a full tear out was needed right down to the slab. I called him and his crew was there when needed and on time. The replacement was perfect. Sure I paid for it but the problem went away when it had to. My point is that it could be worse.
Pitting is the term used in the industry for what you are describing. Pitting is a natural characteristic in most granites, some more than others. In the past 10 years the quarriers have been putting a Resin coating which is similar to a hot wax treatment on the slabs, this is normally done right at the slab factory. You could ask your fabricator is they can resin your slab which will fill in the pits and make it smooth. But in time since it was not done at the factory it may pop out and not stay.
It's unfortunate that the industry had started this resin coating since it changed the industry to the point where all factories were expected to resin their slabs regardless if the material pitted or not. YOur granite is beautiful just the way it is, in time you will not even notice it, it is not a defect.
As others have said, it's not uncommon to have noticable defects.
Cheap granite is cheap because of the nature of the stone. As such, often a penny pincher will go with the low bidder who is using low priced granite which is more likely to have a larger number of defects, which is why it's cheaper.
Many stones with large amounts of defects are filled so the surface looks like it's completely smooth. You may have a nice piece of granite that hasn't been filled, while a cheaper stone when filled would have fewer pits.
Many times there is a trade off between the type of finish and degree to which it needs to be polished. Not all slabs are the same and a poorly polished slab with a gloss sealer will look better than an average slab with no sealer. Again, it's a cost/benefit issue.
If you were my brother in law I'd suggest that you tell the outfit you contracted with you're disapointed the slab has the holes it has and ask if they can send over someone to fill and buff the larger pits and apply a gloss sealer to hide the smaller imperfections. A warning is in order for this fix because what can be a remedy for the problem has the potential to look worse if not done well.
On your behalf I'd suggest being the squeeky wheel to get the maximum amount of grease for your rock. Construction practices allow a great deal of imperfections so legally he's probably not required to fix the stone, so be demanding, but in a sweet as pie kind of way. The more they like your approach, the morre likely you'll get what you want.
On the behalf of the guys who fab'ed the rock please be understanding that it's not a perfect material, nor does it have to be to be beautiful under all but the most demanding inspections. Perhaps you can agree to live with it for a month and at that time you'll know which areas still trouble you and which areas are never looked at close enough to be noticeable.
PMA is a powerful thing, and it's probably not a bad idea to write a note and leave on the counter so every time you want to get down and glance over the surface with harsh light, "The value of this stone is in part due to the natural veriations. Part of it's perfection is that it's not perfect."
Best wishes
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, I really didn't know that this was a feature that varied among slabs. I checked the slab beforehand, but that was just for color and to look for any big veins or fissures.
I spoke with the installer, and he told me that in his experience the pitting is very variable in this type of stone. He said that he's seen Dakota Mahogany with no pits in it, and others with some pits in it, and others with lots of pits in it. This was something I wish he had mentioned beforehand, as it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble. I'm sure I'm not the first person to get granite home and say "How come this doesn't look like the showroom?" I can understand that it's a variable product, but the simple solution is to tell your customer "Now, the pitting can vary a lot with this type of stone, so be sure and look for that and make sure you get a piece of stone you're happy with". I imagine the wholesaler doesn't want to do that, because they'll end up with a lot of low quality stone that nobody wants. But, there is no real downside for the installer - he just gets customers that are happy, rather than ones that are not happy.
I can understand that it's a variable product, but the simple solution is to tell your customer "Now, the pitting can vary a lot with this type of stone, so be sure and look for that and make sure you get a piece of stone you're happy with".
They'd also have to warn about the variability in exactness of polished edges, sink cutouts, slight gaps under the stone on installation, clearances to appliances, sink attachment, amount cabinets are hacked to make room for large sinks, effect of poor cabinet leveling and support, warnings about outlet height and wall straightness, epoxied joints, quality of polish both waviness and smallness of grit, type of sealer if any, etc.
With any luck it's still a #### shoot since the fabricator is often a sub of the countertop contractor, who also subs out the installation. It might even be a different person doing the template. The only way to know what you're going to get is to find a guy who uses one fabricator and installer and look at their past work. As a general contractor I'm used to looking out for problems at all stages, but we still need to know who we're dealing with. As a one-time end consumer client you're going to have to be lucky on many levels.
For instance a good installer two kitchens ago asked if I see anything objectionable as soon as the top was on the cabinets (but not installed so modifications were easy). The height of backsplash was slightly higher than we expected, the amount of overhang in one walk through was adjusted to match the other side, the sink cutout wasn't as uniform as it should have been and I reinforced the importance of being dead nuts on target behind the stove so the pre-cut stainless backsplash would only need a small caulk line. I also offered to releave the sheetrock over a bump so the backsplash wouldn't have to ride the bump and create a wide caulk line. These are things that don't cost us a dime, but a normal end user client isn't prepared to bring up, or even be aware of until it's too late.
There are so many issues in construction that the average client doesn't want to hear we'd be talking ourselves out of work if we list everything that can go wrong and you'd go with the guy down the street with lower quality who simply says, "We only do top quality work and you will love the end result! Here's a list of 1,000 people who are plum happy with us." Unfortunately that's simple human nature.
If surface finish is your only concern you came out pretty good.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 3/3/2008 6:10 pm ET by IdahoDon
"This was something I wish he had mentioned beforehand, as it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble."
Sorry to sound condensending, but in all frankness, you appear to be looking to blame someone else for YOUR lack of education.
Are you an attorney?
Give me a break. There's no way a consumer can be expected to know everything.
"Give me a break. There's no way a consumer can be expected to know everything."
Of course not. That's why you were given the opportunity to examine and choose from lots of choices. You had your chance. You blew it. No breaks from me!
You made your own bed, sleep in it.
Nathar,
I feel your pain. When we had our tops done 3 years ago with Labrador Gold, both my wife and I weren't too impressed. And we even had full height backsplashes done. The granite isn't very shiny and just didn't have the pop we expected. I guess it's due to the pores. We too looked at it in a dimly lit warehouse in Chicago and I thought at the time that the dust (the slab was very dusty) was covering the shine. Our granite looks much better when it's wet and I wish it looked that way all the time.
That said, the installers did a very good job and the granite is in the same condition as when it was installed. We don't have any stains and we're not fussy about what we put on the tops. Granite rocks. :-). Not a single blemish in three years of use.
For what it's worth, we found that the best cleaner is Simple Green Granite Cleaner. It cleans well and leaves a better shine than any other cleaner we've tried.
Bryan