It is sad to say.
I think that what Gunner is dealing with is the Current State of the Homebuilding Industry.
I know that most people that come to Breaktime do quality work.
The average “stuff” that happens in North Texas may be worse than what is going on with Gunner’s project!
The only solution is Education.
Edited to say..this is not Gunners Ordeal it is an adventure.
Edited 9/29/2007 8:47 am by homedesign
Replies
Education, probably so.
But who?
The employees or the boss.............or the owners of the business?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
If it works like our school system, we educate the homeowners to expect less from the contractors. Then everyone is happy.
If it works like our school system, we educate the homeowners to expect less from the contractors. Then everyone is happy.
BP,
Yep, The only reason that Gunner is experiencing grief is because He knows much much more than the average homeowner.
Just think what a nice enjoyable experience this would be for him if he were blissfully ignorant.
I thought maybe that North Texas was less informed ... but it looks like "stuff happens" all over the country.
I realized that I did not know what I was doing... so I looked around to find the people(near me) that were doing things right. So far I can count them with my fingers.
I think for starters that all builders should learn what EEBA is and take note!
Go Mike Maines
The only reason that Gunner is experiencing grief is because He knows much much more than the average homeowner.
That in a nutshell's what it is. Think how blissfully ignorant a goodly number of newhomeowners are during the building time and a while thereafter until little things start getting noticed that weren't there before.
Like that hollow sound near a crack in the groutline that suddenly turned into a cracked tile on the kitchen floor. Or the buckled siding or the brownspots over a bunch of the windows.
Sad thing is in some respects even those folks are still doing ok in that the items for the most part are repairable
but in some instances the shoddy workmanship should by rights have criminal charges for fraud bought against the builders
for taking the money and running down the street to do it again and again and then bankrupting the company only to open in another area under a new name after a mere paperwork shuffle.
Makes me wonder if those guys have hidden overseas savings accounts.
be and the beat goes onla-da-da-da-deela-da-da-da-da
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Rez,
It is not only the Sleazy Builders. It is also the ones with good intentions that just do not have the Knowledge. They can do just as much damage.
I know a builder that had all the best intentions and decided he would close up those pesky weep holes in his brick wall so he could build a tighter house!
I think the ones that have seen the light should be on a mission to spread the word and help educate.
I think the Photo Essays like Mike Smith's help...Building Science Videos help...Full Scale mock-ups of Window openings or even 1 to 4 scale models of walls that work.
Educate,Educate,Educate!
Education, probably so.
But who?
The employees or the boss.............or the owners of the business?
Calvin, I think it is the general contractor.
The guy that calls himself the Builder. He/she must be educated first.
She is making the big bucks and spending 6 months to 2 years of her time on this home.
Every "Builder" should know how to flash an opening! Every Builder should inspect all work and pay promptly for good work...and not pay for wrong work.
Even a guy that is dumb as a 2x4 could learn how to flash a window if someone would just show her how. Or better yet expalin how shingle layering works.
It can be taught.
I don't disagree with your post other than the fact that the GC is making all the money.
The problem(at least around here) is that anyone can be one.
Once they learn that it is a profession it's too late and the problems ensue.
And they never wanted to learn how to do it right in the first place - they just wanted the money that you assume they are making. In the process they just dumb down the process. And the ignorant homeowners are more than happy to continue the ignorance for a cheaper price.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Which thread are you talking about?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Fast,
sorry here is a link
93644.1
Ah yes, the "Tyvek Install" discussion."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The big problem, IMO, is that most people do not understand the chain of command. When a homeowner contracts to build a house, they have in fact, hired someone to work for them. By virtue of that fact, the contractor should take the homeowners desires/ needs and direction to heart and honor them. If I had a dollar for every time a HO told me "my builder doesn't do that" I would be on a beach somewhere sipping umbrella drinks. My response to that is: 1) Who's house is it???? 2) Is your builder invited to Christmas dinner??? 3) Is he/she ever going to sleep in the house??? As a sales person, it frustrates me to educate and sell a HO on an item or a concept for their project and have the builder undo everything because "he doesn't do it that way"....... This is not an indictment on all.... just an observation after 27 yrs in the business.
IT WILL GET WORSE!!!
The only solution is Education.
I agree. Homeowners, carpenters, and contractors all need to continually learn the newest, bestest ways of doing things. I'm shocked by the number of tradesmen I work with who don't read FHB and have never even heard of JLC.
I am gearing up to start a podcast or webcast on construction-related topics. Think "Car Talk" without the cars. It's one way to get more information out there on what is important in building and maintaining houses.
I'm shocked by the number of tradesmen I work with who don't read FHB and have never even heard of JLC.
Mike, I know your not making a blanket statement but not reading either of those mags mentioned does not preclude one from being a top notch builder, and vise versa.
The best builder around here IMO has never heard of JLC and I know he doesnt read/subscribe to FHB but I'd dare someone to build a better house.
There are a lot of GC's out there that do know the right way but gread and whatever else it is that motivates some people trumps the need to do things right.
Doug
not reading either of those mags mentioned does not preclude one from being a top notch builder, and vise versa.
I honestly can't think of a single carpenter who I think does top notch work who doesn't read Fine Homebuilding. I know plenty who do "good" work and don't read FHB, but they are stuck in the 50's or maybe the 70's when it comes to insulation and venting, roof flashing details, the newer generation of products, etc.
You can't just know the best way to do things unless you learn about them somewhere. Sure, there are lots of very smart builders, but they can't know everything. In my 15-carpenter company nobody knew the concerns with the new ACQ lumber (except me, of course ;-) The only way you're going to learn that kind of stuff is from somebody else or a trade journal.
20/20 had show one realestate and contractors. One segement has Holmes on Homes looking at remudeled job gone by.He said that 10% of the contractors where crooks. 20% where good.And the remainding 70% where trying, but just did not know what they where doing.Of course I am sure that is not an exact researched number, rather something that sounds good on TV.But probably more truth than mistakes in it..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
And the remainding 70% where trying, but just did not know what they where doing.
Bill,
This I believe IS the problem.
The only way you're going to learn that kind of stuff is from somebody else or a trade journal.
Thats right! And FHB and JLC are not the end all to knowledge in building great houses.
I could find as many carpenters that have never picked up a FHB or JLC as I could those that have. Your kidding your self if you think you have to read those two mags to do good work.
I honestly can't think of a single carpenter who I think does top notch work who doesn't read Fine Homebuilding.
What are you bucking for here, a mention in the mag! Come on, do you really believe that?
Is that same thing true then for cabinetmakers who dont read FWW because if it does I've got an even a bigger surprise for you.
Doug
Edited 9/29/2007 10:10 am ET by DougU
Both of those trade journals are more common here in New England, so I can understand the conclusion he has drawn, the better builders here are at least familkiar with them.but overall, I agfree with what you are saying. I never heard of either rag until I moved here. At that time, my employer had a stack of JLC in the front office that I glomed onto to read and my BIL introduced me to his FHB, a stack of which near his bed went back to the beginning.I was fortunate in that one of my earliest construction jobs was under a guy who took the time to educate me not only on what he wanted me to do in each step of the process, but why it was important. We built two cabins that year together and I got an introductory ccourse in everything that goes into the building of a home.As I progressed in the trades, I was often in locations where I had no-one to teach me so I reverted to books to get more information. Technique is something I had to learn the hard way. I still don't know how to learn thaat from a book or text, nor to teach it that way.Elbow to elbow with a tradesman who understands his stuff and loves it is the best way.but Mike has a point too. We can get sort of inbred - "that's the way I have always done it"
when I moved here, none of the carps I worked alongside of had ever heard of the idea of gluing subfloor down, for instance. Basic stiuff that had just not crossed the water yet.A good topic would be "How do you learn your stuff.?"A lot of guys get their info from the lumberyards whose reps go to tradeshows. Some actually read the instructions that come with products.
For me, the past ten years more or less has been priomarily from the journals and online.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
From an earlier post in this thread . . .
The only reason that Gunner is experiencing grief is because He knows much much more than the average homeowner.
I have observed that some GCs will detect that a client is knowledgeable about housebuilding, and will add a large "headache factor" to a bid for work.
I have added a headache factor to my estimates, but not at all for HOs who know and are interested in good work.It is the ones who only think they know based on Hometime or HD advisors who are the headaches because of false knowledge or no understanding.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I understand Mikes and your position clearly, and I wasn't diss'n either Mike,FHB, or JLC. I've learned from all of them.
But to think that one can not or does not know the best way to do the work if they haven't read FHB or JLC is ridiculous. Same for the comment that all the carpenters read/subscribe to FHB. That last one is almost laughable!
Good houses have been built for many years before either of these mags ever came along, good practices have been passed along through people that took the time to learn. I'm not talking about "inbread" practices, I'm talking about the best methods of our time. Someday some of the practices that we believe to be "the best" will also be proven to not be the best.
These mags do expedite those practices and for that we are all better off but they aren't necessary to assure those very practices that some of us try to achieve.
Doug
Edited 9/29/2007 3:10 pm ET by DougU
Absolutely true dat.but Mike is young yet, and the comment could be more reflective of HIS experience where he has worked.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What Piffin said....
Also, I've learned a LOT more about how to do things from books and mags than from individuals. I know I'm unusual for that.
There are plenty of guys out there who can cut and install wood better than I can.
And maybe I haven't worked with that many carpenters. Maybe 40 or 50, side-by-side.
Of those, probably 30 were just there for the paycheck and because they like installing boards. They strictly did what they were told or taught to do, no thinking required.
10 had some training, knew some tricks, were familiar with the state of the art of carpentry. Stuff you could get if you worked with an old-timer who payed attention to the new product literature. Couldn't be relied on to think a problem through though.
10 read FHB or JLC, knew things like ACQ=watch out, deck boards go heart side up, what moisture content should be, how to build a cabinet, lay a roof, roll joists, form a foundation. Of those, 5 were top-notch at what they do.
So yes, I am serious when I say, of the carpenters I have worked with, ALL the top notch ones, the ones I think would make the "right" decision 95% of the time, read FHB or JLC.
Maybe part of this difference of opinion is our specialties? A fine woodworker such as yourself works in a narrower field, where there are fewer new things to have to know. A generalist and manager like me has to know a lot about pretty much every single thing that goes on at a job site, and has to be able to talk knowledgably with the architect, engineer, and homeowner about everything from soils to grout to trim design to insulation options. When I think top-notch carpenter, I think of somebody who knows building inside and out. To do that, you HAVE to be up on the newest trends and products. To do that, you HAVE to read a trade journal.
If there are other good trade journals besides those mentioned, please tell me. I want them ;-)
Cabinetmakers and FWW are not the same deal as FHB/JLC and carpenters. (I know because I started out as a cabinetmaker!)
I'll probably be in the mag soon, but not because of this thread. And I'm not sucking up. I don't think there is as much good information in there as there used to be.
woodworker such as yourself works in a narrower field,
We built a house last winter, somewhere around 4 mill, going to build another one(probably a bit more) this year, matter of fact the framing starts next Wed. so I do a little more then build cabinets!
Mike, I'm not trying to start an argument with you on this topic because I dont know that there is a right/wrong to it.
I'm sure that your opinions of the carps that you are around are true, no reason to dispute you on it but I'd bet I could find one equally good carp that hasnt used the net or FHB/JLC to advance themselves in this field for every one that you say has used those resorces.
where there are fewer new things to have to know.
Thats a little insulting but I guess I will go with Piffin on this one - your young!
Doug
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. I thought you were strictly a trim and cabinets guy.
Thats a little insulting but I guess I will go with Piffin on this one - your young!
So, should I ascribe the several insulting comments you made to me to your age? ;-)
Doug, I never said that ALL carpenters read FHB/JLC, or that they had to. Or that it's the only way to get good information. ALL I said was that OF THE GREAT CARPENTERS I PERSONALLY KNOW, they all read those magazines. Sorry if your experience doesn't match mine.
I agree that they are not the end-all-be-all of information. I learned more in a one-day seminar from Joe Stiburek than than in a year or two worth of magazines. Seminars at JLC Live have been another way to get great information. How many carpenters do you work with who go to seminars? I don't know many.
Books are another way to transfer information. I've got a shelf full, as I'm sure you do. Most carpenters I KNOW PERSONALLY don't spend their spare time reading about new ways to build cabinets or insulate walls.
I've met a few carpenters who practiced in the 1940's, 50's, and 60's. They were good builders. We talked about how back then, in a given area, there was one right way to build a house. There were vastly fewer different materials to use. Natural materials were not forgiving of poor technique. Energy efficiency wasn't a big concern. Things were different then.
There are so many different materials, techniques, and things to consider in building a house now--PLEASE tell me how somebody is supposed to learn this. Really, how do carpenters learn?
Finally, regarding my comment you found offensive, in any specialty trade there are fewer things to know than in building in general, where you have to know something about all the trades in order to keep things pulled together. My brother started out as a carpenter with me, now he's building cabinets for $20 Million dollar houses. He's the one who told me he doesn't have to worry about anything but making cabinets now.
I don't want to argue either, but I'm not wrong on this.
Mike,
I am with you
Age is not relevant. I would rather have someone with your attitude building my house.
I have a feeling that you know where all the control layers are on your house and why it matters.
I do not think that the most wise and seasoned carpenters in my area have even had a discussion about suuch things.
We are not building houses the way we used to. We have to get educated.
I will post a link to a short video if anyone cares. Does anyone care?
John
Videos are good. What kind of video?
Here is a free video that people pay big bucks to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_IrtDR3p0c
After I saw this I paid big bucks to see more!
Edit to add a link for more Building Geek Videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/BuildingGeek
Edited 9/30/2007 1:00 pm by homedesign
That Joe L. video is the same thing I saw in person--good stuff!
Joe is good.
Just keep in mind...
Good ain't God
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Older and Wiser is good too
So is the current issue of FHB (the Energy Noosebleed article)
I haven't openned mine yet
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
but I'm not wrong on this.
Well there you have it then!
Hell what do I know, I'm just a dumb cabinet maker right..........Nothing new for me to learn, I got it made.
regarding my comment you found offensive,
Mike, go back and re-read, I never said I was offended, that may not be within your powers - just that your comment was insulting because you assumed that all I know/do is cabinet work.
And if you go back and do re-read you'll see that I said that FHB/JLC and this, as well as other forums do make it easier to get that knowledge but aren't essential to obtaining it, something you said that all the good carpenters that you knew did do! I merely pointed out that the mags are not the only way to get that knowledge.
I think we're saying the same thing but for some reason we're not seeing it!
If your offended by the age comment then I'll gladly change ages with you! You make the arrangements please.
Doug
Edited 9/30/2007 12:38 pm ET by DougU
I'm SOOO glad I've got you guys fussing with each other instead of with me;)When you get to be a really old wize guy, it helps to arrange that, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yur a wiseguy, all right...
I'm not offended by much of anything, Doug--just stubborn!
Is it beer o'clock yet?
"If there are other good trade journals besides those mentioned, please tell me. I want them ;-)"Hanley woods
"Tools of the Trade"Also, "Professional Remodelor"
Both free
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hanley woods
"Tools of the Trade"I never subscribed to that mag.Yet recently I have gotten two copies of it. And both copies screamed across the front... YOUR SUBSCRIPTION IS ABOUT TO EXPIRE !!! Re-subscribe now !
Yeh... That'll work.
I think that the free trade mags either go by name or randomly for subscription verification. It is really not a renewal, but verifying that you still "qualify" for the free subscription.And want you get on one they often continue for years after you no longer update your 'subscription'.The way that it might work is that they need a certain percent verified for the auditing that is done to show the advertiser that that they have certain number of potential buyers fo their wares.So they keep asking for renewals until they get that percent of qualified replies. Removing people from the list is a different process.Don't realy know, but that would fit the patterns that I have seen..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
INeverSubscribed.;o)
Bill, the point was that I never subscribed. the mag just showed up.Twice now.Both time screaming across the front that my subscription was up, and that I should re-subscribe.
...I'm thinking I'll "re-subscribe" LOL I haven't looked all that good at the mag yet, but some wet winter day, when the power is out, I may just be glad for the reading material.=0)
Yeh... That'll work.
Edited 9/30/2007 1:35 am by Luka
I would not be surprised if they don't send some out based on being on a given list. Then try to get them verified.I have never had that happen. But I get phone calls all the time for engineering mags. Several in fields that I never worked and had no interest in.In fact one was so bad that I had to endup tracking down the publisher and tell them to stop.I have not followed the thread, but I saw the bit about the meetup at the JLC show. If you registered for that or went last year that registration might hav signed you up. Published by the Handly Woods, which puts on the show and publishes JLC.Or someone signed up for you..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There you go.Probably automatically subscribed when I signed up for the JLC live convention.
Yeh... That'll work.
I do like Professional Remodeler, haven't seen it in a while though. Forgot about that one. Seems like it's more geared toward business than hands-on stuff, IIRC, but I guess it's all important.
Only seen a few copies of Tools of the Trade. It reminded me of the magazines my sisters in law get about shopping. Is there good information in there?
Always a good tool review, and generally one about some practical skill, like a process for laying out walls efficiently.The new tool reviews are always by somebody who actually uses such tools on a daily basis, not by an associate editor with semi-informed opinions about how tools should work.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Alright, I'll check it out. Thanks.
My approach to combat such things (sloppy workmanship, miscommunication) was by spec'ing things in detail during the bid process so the sub knew exactlywhat I wanted and expected up front. I included handouts from Building Science, etc. as needed to explain the details. Yeah, maybe overkill, but I got what I wanted, and was willing to pay for it 'cause the normal practice wasn't going to cut it for me.
Maybe an easy remedy for the window cutouts would be to Vycor tape the Tyvek into the window and door openings.
spec'ing things in detail during the bid process so the sub knew exactlywhat I wanted and expected up front
Formula1,
You got it...It must be perfectly clear what everybody is expected to do.
And We must inspect.
You get what you inspect... not what you expect!
Educate? Okay. How about this.
Would someone please explain what difference it makes if housewrap is sliced off at the rough opening or carefully cut from the corners and wrapped into the rough opening? Loren Wallace for president.
I'm kinda with you on that. I used 30lb felt and didn't wrap it inside the rough frame, but I'm slinging up FC siding onmy walls, not brick.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Yeah. You get water at that level, you got problems way bigger than which way the housewrap was cut, and wrapping it over the sill and trimmers isn't going to help enough to matter.
A heck of a lot of these "latest and greatest" methods look great in magazines (or on a computer screen) but you have to evaluate each method in context, as a part of a whole, not in isolation. And there's no way to do that without seeing the entire structure.
So how about it? Anyone got an explanation on why house wrap should be installed in what's currently considered the correct way?
Loren Wallace for president.
What's wrong with wrapping them? I guess it's a choice. To me it's a way for water that has gotten in there. (If that ever happens somehow.) To have a path out and down to it's assigned weephole. Just another check mark on the plan.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
Cut at the corners and wrapped into the opening was a neat-looking way of doing things about 20 years ago.
Now that openings are (or should be) wrapped with self-adhesive membrane, it makes a cleaner/better job to do what you say. Of course the top of the membrane should be tucked under the housewrap and the seam taped....
But you knew all that ;-)
How's the weather there? I'm gonna be in Seattle next week--
What are you coming out here for Mike? How long are you staying?This is my favorite season - usually a little moisture on the ground in the morning, mist in the hills, low clouds that burn off mid morning or so...high 50s, maybe 60 by lunch, low to mid 60s by afternoon break, I guess it gets into the 40s at night. Only negative is late sunup, early sundown.We didn't have much of a summer, I sure hope fall makes up for it. This can last into November - I have my fingers crossed.Loren Wallace for president.
Nice! That's what the weather will be like here this week--my favorite time of year too.
My wife's best friend (and an old girlfriend of mine--long story!) and her husband and kid recently moved from DC to Issaquah. And, DW's uncle has lived in downtown Seattle forever--we're long overdue for a visit. I lived there the summer of 1995; it's probably my favorite city. I'd live there if my family wasn't here.
We'll be flying out Oct. 5 and returning Oct. 14. I know we're going to check out "wine country," see the sights in Seattle, probably do the underground tour, go to Vancouver for a day, drink a lot of coffee.... I'm not sure how we're going to fill up a week though. Any ideas? We're foodies, moderately outdoorsy, won't have a rental car....
Too bad you won't be here at the end of october, so you could attend the JLC convention, and our micro-fest !The weather up here where I am, can be quite different from where Jim is.We've begun the major storm season up here.Power was out for most of the night, on thursday night.Major thunderstorm rolled through last night.Lots and lots of rain.And we had that huge flood last year, at the end of october.
Yeh... That'll work.
Yeah, bad timing on my part. My wife travels a lot for work so we don't have too many windows where we can travel for fun. Plus we got great prices on tickets ($200 each, RT!)
You're a lot closer to Seattle and Issaquah than Jim, right?
Maybe you, Jim and I can meet up for a micro, micro, mini-fest? ;-)
I'm a -little- closer to Issaquah.Issaquah is almost the halfway point between Jim and I.At this point it looks like all my resources are tied up in trying to get some work finished here at home, and getting to the JLC convention at the end of the month.Had I known about it sooner, I might have been able to make plans.=0(Although with a schedule from the 5th to the 14th, you never know...=0)
Yeh... That'll work.
I'm not sure how things are going to work out--with two places to be, the week may go fast or slow, not really in my control--but I have your contact info, I'll call if there's time to swing by your place to say hello?
Sounds cool to me.=0)
Yeh... That'll work.
There's a lot to do and see in these parts, for sure. One of our daughters got married this past summer and we had family come out from the East coast wanting tips on short excursions. I think it's really dependant on what moves you - in town, mountains, ocean, farm lands, winerys...big state, lots to see.
We are moving into our new house this weekend and next and I then have about 4+1/2 month's work scheduled for the next 3 months so I'm not certain what I could commit to get togetherwise, but I'd at least like to meet for a cup of coffee or a beer...maybe one evening?
We're about 90 minutes south of Issaquah. Maybe we could rendevous in Federal way or something? That's about 1/2 way. Don't let it be a burden, but I'd sure like to get together while you're out here.Loren Wallace for president.
jim.....
<<<We are moving into our new house this weekend >>>
you do remember the olde saying, right ?
"new house..... new baby "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You remember Lisa Long's tagline? "a finished house is a listed house" (or something like that.
Hey. Aren't you supposed to be at Fenway?
Loren Wallace for president.
even better.... i'm sitting in my living room watching Beckett toss a gem on HD TVMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jim,
Educate ME.
That's why I am here at this forum. It is not enough to study Building Science.
I think that some of the Building Science Details may not work so well in "The Real World"
I think that someone should be building 3 dimensional mockups for every wall roof and opening intersection... and then photograph the mock-ups. We need these for every type of cladding and for every different climate.
Some of these "mockups" should be full size with the actual materials. Other mockups could be scale models. The important thing is that they be 3 dimensional and perfectly clear to understand. So that everyone is on the same page.
"Educate ME."
I can only speak from my own experience, but I'd say that judgement is far more important than knowledge of any specific techniques.
A good carpenter has to analyze the task at hand in context of the specific building, the local climate, the potential for changing surrounding landscape, materials available to work with...other factors that don't spring to mind...but then weigh all those issues and decide how to best use a detail that is consistant with what that specific building is intended to do - the broad strokes, if you will - provide shelter from wind and rain and cold, provide a healthy environment for occupants that will last far longer than the time it takes to pay for.
There's more, for sure. But bottom line, to me, it's not about the latest and greatest trends or popular opinions on best materials or techniques. It's about understanding basics, like working WITH gravity instead of against it. Or preventing water intrusion instead of remediating it...the broad strokes.
Oh. And a good carpenter has her OWN standards that she isn't willing to compromise - the customer is not always right.
Loren Wallace for president.
jim, Just wanted to post my agreement with you about the house wrap window detail. I started using Tyvec when it was a special order item, followed all the details, now I won't use the stuff at all. Preventing water intrusion at windows has more to it than wrapping an opening with the water barrier and putting a sill pan in. I KNOW I can make a water proof installation of a modern window that has nailing flanges with nothing more than felt paper. No tape, or anything else. I remember when the "science" of building had us building homes without air to air exchangers and using 6 mil. poly as a continuous vapor barrier. Then the damage started to be reported and the "science" changed. My work is far from perfect , I read everything I have time to read about the subject of building homes. Along with that I have learned a healthy distrust of those who have a vested interest in selling a product or a "science" on the matter. The "science " of building wasn't born as a full fledged "adult" rather matures just as anything does, learning from it's mistakes along the way."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
There is a small concise book that illustrates the many approaches to "slicing and wrapping" window and door penetrations published by EEBA...Water Management. JLC has also published a similar volume.
These texts go beyond what can be found on many of the manufacturers installation specifications.
The simplest is cut to the corners and fold in......and it does leave 4 corners open to water intrusion. There are better versions but most need pans and additional sealing tapes.
Different window and door configuraions placed in different wall systems need different approaches to water control. Much more complex than just "cut and wrap"!
It takes time and concentration to understand and use these "new concepts" ...maybe that is why so many contractors have not included these methods in their daily construction regimen.
.....Iron Helix
My solution was to hire a state licensed professional inspector. That gives me a lot more piece of mind that I am not missing something important.
Any issues the inspector finds, we disscuss and decide how important they are. If we think it is important, I take it to the contractor to fix. When I go to one of the contractors with his report in hand and point out the things the state licensed inspector found, the contractor isn't left with any easy ways out.
The only solution is Education.
I agree entirely, but not education as it is currently being done in our schools. Kids are learning facts that can be regurgitated on tests; they are not learning how to analyze facts and put them together to some up with solutions to real issues and problems. Public school has always been like this to a point, but it has gotten considerably worse over the last decade.
Furthermore, too much of current school education is learning either how to avoid "problem children" or how to better get away with drug-dealing, harassment (of teachers as well as students), and other inappropriate, dangerous, or illegal behavior.
How bad are schools? I would NEVER have considered asking my mother to home-school me--even though I was definitely an "outsider". My son and two of his friends (all 8th graders) REQUESTED that I home-school them, and I know several other middle- and high-schoolers who would like to be home-schooled, but their parents don't feel up to it. Biggest problem with the two I work with is that they want everything to have "an answer" that fits into half a line or less. And these are "smart" kids from families that read, talk, travel--all the "right stuff".
Kids get out of school, get jobs--and have no idea how to think. Doesn't matter if it's "blue-collar" or "white collar", thinking doesn't happen, and researching and learning stopped when they graduated (or earlier). Even worse (?), they want to know exactly what is required so they know exactly how much they have to do in order to "pass". Don't think for a minute that this problem only exists in the home-building industry--it's everywhere!
What to do? All I am sure of is that there is no single "problem" that can be merely "fixed".
Kathleen
Kids get out of school, get jobs--and have no idea how to think.
Couldn't have said it better. Here we have a truely amazing tool (brain) at our disposal....it's a tragedy it doesn't get implemented as it could.
Education is certainly part of, if not all the solution. But how? It seems a vicious cycle that drags quality into the ditch:
Work is performed by unknowing or uncaring provider who sometimes has the audacity to claim it "quality".
Bad work is accepted by client who doesn't know the difference.
Payment for substandard quality effectively lowers the quality bar.
On the other hand, we have researching minds such as Building Science providing logical, technical information. Interest in utililizing the info they provide often seems about nil at the grassroots level.
The gap between the two looks to be getting wider. Apathy is rampant, "(it's just a house)". And even a great attitude is compromised by lack of education and understanding.
Pride in one's work is one key, curiosity and evdeavoring to improve helps, too.
I suppose I'm a little of a curmudgeon, but it just upsets me no end when I see this cycle perpetuate.
Enough blather from me.PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
It's not an ordeal it's an adventure. I believe the deal with my actual builder. (The guy that owns the company) Is he has isolated himself from his people. He has this whole system in place with chains of command. His big downfall is he has hired his top people out of his church. Nothing against going to church but it's not the place to conduct job interviews. Having any kind of construction experience is not a prerequisite for getting a job. It is sad. The guy really doesn't have a clue. With the chain of command he has he's not very approachable to customers. Everything is filtered. If you have a problem that is going to effect a person in that chain then it will get muted out before it gets to him. My next step is to demand a sit down with him. A private sit down. His people can't be telling him what's going on. I think I can get it because my boss knows the guy socially and is behind me on my concerns.
From what I have gathered he does take an interest in being up to date on trends and what is going on. His people are so flustered by lack of knowledge and being too lazy to actively seek out the knowledge that they are building houses with an eighties attitude. I really don't think he has a clue how bad it is. I might be wrong. It's just kind of an outsiders point of view.
The offer I got today I would like to think is the result of some of what I told them yesterday actually sinking in. But the way they are talking to me, they want me to think that I'm eccentric for wanting such things. And all I want is what good framers do. Their attitude is deplorable.
So I guess my answer is. It's all in the attitude of the people calling the shots. They can embrace the project and make every home one they would be content to live in. Or they can take the attitude that it's just another pile of sticks and rocks and the home builders association is worth it for the breakfast. And payday is on Friday.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
Edited 9/28/2007 11:58 pm ET by Gunner
I use to have a payday on Fridays.
Thinking back now it really wasn't so bad.
be another Friday
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
It's not an ordeal it's an adventure.
Gunner,
Sorry that I was assuming how you felt. You have the right attitude.
Your adventure reminded me of my last experience of building my personal home. I hired a big framing outfit...they gave me the price I wanted to hear and then the "B" team showed up.
It felt like an ordeal to me.
The construction process should be a satisfying experience for the homeowner and the people that build the home.
It's an adventure like being lost upstream surrounded by Pigmy head hunters. LOL
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
Saw this thread and thought WTF, now what's he done LOL.I missed the whole Tyvek thread you posted, but FWIW, when I built my house, I used the 9' wide roll of tyvek and therefore minimized the taped joints, but I did use Duponts proprietary tape to seal the joints that I had. Their window flashing flex tape is super-super expensive, so I opted to use some leftover I&W shield and wrapped all the openings with that. I agree with your assessment, that too many people in the trades are careless or just don't give a damn these days.
I have always tended to overbuild anyways, after 2 years I don't have a single drywall crack, or any other issues.
The big problem with the underachievers is they rely too much on code as their standard. If you build things just to code when you could make it better with a little more effort and a couple of bucks then you have given the minimum effort you could. Winos can do the minimum.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
I see your point about your first sentence. It could be anything with me latley. Did you think it was a fundraising thread for bail?
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
When I'm the customer I appreciate being given options and explanations rather than just the "usual". When I was building for customers it was so important to explain to them why I would recommend an approach that was more expensive and took longer than a competitor's. New clients can be skeptical and some don't care. Much of the quality work is in details that don't show and the benefits that they bring are just "pie in the sky" for many people who are thinking short term. Many people have told me that it didn't matter because they weren't going to be around when repair or replacement would be necessary so they wanted the cheaper option. With "word of mouth" advertising and repeat customers it's easier to do quality work but if one has to bid in a price sensitive environment the product suffers. I suspect the majority of people would prefer a bigger house with "eye candy" to a smaller, more efficient, lower maintenance and thoughtful house for the same price.
The knowledgeable customer is my best customer.
Just my 2 cents but spec'ing the he** out of it doesnt educate people.
If the tradesmen/supers/managers/owners understand why things are done a certain way, and what can happen if you dont do it that way, the ones you want working on your jobs will get it.
Sometimes shock therapy works too.
I had a field training class for how to properly wrap the exterior of the house and started by telling everyone to raise their right hand and proceeded to swear them in.
I then told them that if they did not do this stuff right, that is the likely result. Eventually people would sue.
Oh, by the way, this is after the company I worked for hired Building Science to figure out why all of our stucco leaked and what to do about it.
It has got to be education!! Stay away from the ones that dont care and educate the ones that do. The non caring ones will be forced out eventually, either by lack of cleintelle or by attorneys.
Enlightened in PA!
Oh, by the way, I did something wrong this week because I didnt know better. I learned and will never do that again! Ignorance is bliss until it bites you in the A**
I learned and will never do that again!
Jeff, that sounds like a good thread.
I think all the good suggestions relate to education in different ways.
Best of all worlds would be the guys (and girls) with common sense who have great mentors and keep up with the latest technology. And then those girls mentor the newbies. We need to share examples of when we do things right and when we do things wrong.
One of the highlights of a Lstiburek Seminar I just went to was when he proudly showed one of his failures.
Joe is one of the best at admitting that he has made soo many mistakes.
Difference is Joe learned from his and is now doing very well by teaching others from his mistakes. I learned more and had my eyes ripped open wide by the 18 month period where we were working with Building Science than most other periods in my career. Lucky me, I was working for someone else at the time and they paid for my education. Now I am on my own but still learning every day, and teaching a young guy as well.
Hopefully, he will pass it on.
This is the kind of stuff that ticks me off. It seems like a little thing but it all builds up.
View Image
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
This is the kind of stuff that ticks me off. It seems like a little thing but it all builds up.
Gunner, I am not sure what the photo is showing.
It looks like standard procedure (In North Texas)
The AC guy is just trying to do his job. It does not matter to him that he is using a construction cavity as a return duct. He does not care that he may compromise the structure. He has a job to do. I think this is an Architectural problem.
Most home plans(mine included) do not properly provide for the mechanical systems.
I think this is an Architectural problem.
Yep, working with new construction plumbers one can often hear the complaint against the narrow thickness of a plumbers wall 'til they get seasoned a bit and consider it a normal operation they have no control over.
"What are we supposed to do? We have to run the lines." is the kind of comment heard as they have to place a three inch drain in a 2x4 wall. To complain over and over to a GC won't get any reaction but to hire it out to someone else who will do it and not call him next time.
Few new construction plumbers I've met do it as a labor of love as the money is key to showing up everyday.
So they do it unless they can talk the GC into a 2x6 plumber's wall which farts up the interior bath plans which are already so tight it becomes discombobulated within the door,tub and sink setup so it becomes a just cut it and get it done routine.
Some stuffshirted archy dreamer in an upperroom somewhere thinking he's God's gift to the building word making those 2x4 bathwalls with an 2'0 entrance.
Ought to make them live in one of those houses subconsciously turning sideways or hitting his shoulder on the doorframe all the time and wondering where the stinky smell or water is coming from after a trimmer shoots the vent stack or waterlines with a nail.
Some stuffshirted archy dreamer in an upperroom somewhere thinking he's God's gift to the building word making those 2x4 bathwalls with an 2'0 entrance.
hee hee hee
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
You can get through a 2,0 door after turning sideways ?I guess all the rumors weren't true...
Yeh... That'll work.
If your going to hack up the floor for a return You might as well make it worth it and hack out the whole opening. Here here's another one of my ice and water shield install.
View Image
View Image
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"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
Is that off-white paper on the window wrap supposed to be removed. We typically use a different brand for window & door flashing but I seem tom remember getting a roll of the stuff like you have. I *thought* we peeled that paper off.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I don't know if you're supposed to or not. The Tyvek specialist that was looking at it yesterday couldn't believe it.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
Why'd they even bother!
You got me.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
I usually have to TRY to screw something up that bad, that ain't just a brain fade job. I mean it is too bassackwards to believe it was an honest mistake.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
"I usually have to TRY to screw something up that bad, "It scares me when I start having all these thoughts exactly like you
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The manufacturer didn't have instructions in Spanish. So you get what you get.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
The education of the entire picture of building is the problem. "If I do 'A', how will it affect the rest of the entire alphabet", is the attitude that I approach things with. Tyvek is such a minor application, but when it is done haphazardly (sp?), it can have devastating results.
There was a good stretch in my carreer that I did comm. construction and the motto was, "It didn't have to be right, it just had to be there". That was so educational, seeing so many untrained, uneducated schmoes putting a building together that I often times didn't feel safe unless I inspected my surroundings before I began my portion of work.
These trade journals provide all of us with innovative products that we have the opportunity to investigate, study, and adapt to our application. Without the simple fact that we see them here (in the mags or online), how would we even get the exposure to new things on the block. My own partner gets an education from me exposing him to innovation learned here.
Simple people do simple things. You can train a monkey to staple up Tyvek if that's all you expect!
"It didn't have to be right, it just had to be there".
Sarison,
The Architecture office where I apprenticed had a saying:
"the more you show, the more they blow"
there is a "crank it out" mentality in all the trades.
Needless to say I have had to try and learn a lot of stuff on my own.
Now you have 93 posts showing you why I use tarpaper...;o)Hey, don't hit me 'cause I'm smarter den you !Ow !!
Yeh... That'll work.
I wouldn't have a problem with tar paper. But can you imagine how bad these guys can screw that up? There's more rows with tarpaper.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
No doubt.But I just had to yank your chain after nearly 100 posts.;o)
Yeh... That'll work.
Thanks paly. :)
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
hows come tarpaper doesn't need to be taped, but Tyvek does (assuming it is lapped properly)?
Cuz they don't make tarpaper tape.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Grand father clause?
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
I'm talking to myself :-)
Above, I asked:
>> hows come tarpaper doesn't need to be taped, but Tyvek does (assuming it is lapped properly)? <<
Anyone???????
And this is reduandant from above but what is the purpose of carefully cutting and fastening the Tyvek around the inside of the window opening when it is gonna get a window with nail flanges installed per mfg specs: nail flanges get silicone caulk, bottom flange gets flashing plastic that is lapped on top of the top edge of the piece of siding below, sides and top flanges are taped with bituminious flashing tape, top piece of tape being under the tyvek...
I think you'll find a lot of people don't feel like taping any housewrap is critical, because the siding holds it tight.
And I think several of us said that it's NOT important to do the traditional X-cut and wrap of the housewrap around windows, only that it's important to tuck the self-adhesive membrane under the housewrap above the window.
OK - good - I didn't read all the posts....
And on a Positive note. Good stuff happens too.
Mike Smith's current project.
92880.1
Edited 10/5/2007 6:58 am by homedesign
Edited 10/5/2007 7:00 am by homedesign
Mike Smith destroyed a shed.
I'm going to go tell Junkhound!
Mike Smith destroyed a shed.
I'm going to go tell Junkhound!
LOL -
saw Mike's pix, need to get myself a big trackhoe like that, poor little Ford 4500 just can't do that type stuff.
PS: That's why eye espouse 'cheap sheds', with property values and 'urban density' as it is where I'm at, 100% sure they will all be 'trackhoed' within a month of my death.
Nothing like having a plan for the future I always say. snorK*
Nothing like having a plan for the future I always say.
Nothing like having a plan for the future I always say.
Nothing like having a plan for the future I always say.
Nothing like having a plan for the future I always say.
Edited 10/5/2007 8:29 am ET by rez
It is unlike you not to have anything to say..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yep, nothing like having a plan for the future.
Maybe because they figger it might be forever before someone gets around to putting the siding on the house
and this way they can milk it for another month of winds before they get a roundtuit.
be a roundtuit
>> and this way they can milk it for another month of winds before they get a roundtuit. <<
Or maybe they can milk the customer for another $40 or $60 for their tape...
None the less, I put that tape on my personal house, and although I haven't "been under" the siding, I know that tape sticks damn well.
I'll take a stab at that tape Q withn no idea how valid this answer might be so I am not argueing it, just throwing it out there...I have heard in seminar lessons on walls that under force of wind,, water can be blown uphill in housewrap.Also, Housewrap if there with the intent primarily of being an air barier.Tarpaper has been successfully used for a hundred years more or less as a moisture barrier priomarily. The older tarpapers had a lot more tar to them and they were sticky enough to tack the lapps together under the pressure of the siding over them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> have heard in seminar lessons on walls that under force of wind,, water can be blown uphill in housewrap. << Good point about wind driven rain...
Once had a city inspector tell me that water doesn't go up hill. I just looked at him with a grin on my face.
and
>> The older tarpapers had a lot more tar to them and they were sticky enough to tack the lapps together under the pressure of the siding over them. << Interesting point that I wasn't aware of - still doesn't explain the logic between modern tar-paper sheathing wrap jobs though.
"still doesn't explain the logic between modern tar-paper sheathing wrap jobs though."Well, a lot of old habits and thinking always carries forward even when products decline or otherwise change
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll add something else to that The ideal perms for housewrap is in a range of 10-15 for it to be able to breathe or let moisture pass through to keep from trapping it and causing mold.Typar runs about 11-13 permsTarpape runs around 1-5 permsSo theoretically if you taped seams in tarpaper, you would be more likely to lock water behind it. Leaving seams open allows drainage of condensate if you were to get any behind it.Still just speculating as I think this through
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll add that I've heard one of the main advantages to tar paper is that it's perm rating drops as it gets wet, so that it can indeed dry out...Steve
Good points from both you and moogle
If you've got moisture from inside the house reaching the backside of your housewrap, you've got bigger problems than the perm rating of your wrap. If moisture from inside the house has gotten all the way through the wall, it's already hit a condensing surface...the back of the sheathing, which in a cold climate, is going to be below dewpoint, and you are going to have soggy walls whether your housewrap has a perm of 5 or of 13.I think of building wrap as temporary siding and as the drainage plane of last resort behind the siding, which is going to leak around the wall penetrations eventually, no matter how carefully you apply your claddings. I think what really counts as far as wraps and/or tar paper is detailing so that it will drain, and not relying on sealants, which will fail eventually. Is anyone out there making regular use of secondary drainage planes (vertical furring strips or houseslicker)?Steve
Is anyone out there making regular use of secondary drainage planes (vertical furring strips or houseslicker)?
Steve (& Others), Furring strips and mesh are rare in North Texas. I am considering using furring strips behind hardi-plank.
I know that there is a lot more attention to this in the Pacific Northwest and Canada. Where are you and what is standard for you?
John B
"Is anyone out there making regular use of secondary drainage planes (vertical furring strips or houseslicker)?"See my hand up way in the back of the class?there are also conbo wrap and drainage membranes like Greengaurd and I trhink there is a new Typar that has a wrinkled surface to create micro drainage channels.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>See my hand up way in the back of the class?<<So what are you using? I've used the Benjamin Obdyke product and found it a bit stretchy and squishy for my taste. I think I would like the solidity of furring strips, but seems like it would be kind of a pain, plus the details around the windows and doors seem like they would still catch water.Steve
I tried the rainslicker on one, but had the same problem. The guys felt like it took too much time to install and made the siding work harder. Things like short 6" lengths of siding between windows made it especially too squishy where they had to be very careful nailing so as not to drawi it in.I have used a lot of strips ripped to about 5/16" over Thermax foam taped.what I like best for installation is the Greengaurd housewrap. it is woven to facilitate drainage, or I should say, percolation. it is a bit more expensive than Tyvek or Typar, and has to run the right direction, but once on, you don't need to do another step, saving labour and dimension.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here are some of the offerings these days:https://pactivnet.pactiv.com/ProductCatalog/Rooms/DisplayPages/LayoutInitial?Container=com.webridge.entity.Entity%5BOID%5B33A485043409D711A4830002A5FBF6DF%5D%5Dhttp://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/22483http://www.valeron.com/vortec/?source=GoogleadwordsVortecbyKeyword&gclid=CLasiq2z_44CFSBMGgodXkh22ghttp://homeslicker.com/products-hstypar.htm
Edited 10/8/2007 9:30 am ET by reinvent
I usually have to TRY to screw something up that bad, that ain't just a brain fade job.
Sphere, You figured it out
Pygmy Sabatoge!
Actually sabatoge or sometimes "ok i will show this jerk" happens
I usually have to TRY to screw something up that bad, that ain't just a brain fade job. I mean it is too bassackwards to believe it was an honest mistake.
Duane, all jokes aside I think that work like this is just a result of someone that just plain dont give a rats azz, this isnt a career for that person, its a pay check. Most of us here actually want to do the right thing, weather someone will see it or not but its obvious that that isnt this persons goal!
I dont know that all the education in the world will help someone like this.
Doug
Its a difference in attitude. When I was a kid, I worked as a dishwasher in a rest. that Mom worked at. I was maybe 9 or 10.
Well, I took my job seriously, and when I finished wshing all the pots and pans, the cooks were furious with me..I didn't understand...the pans were gleaming clean..WTF?
I had scrubbed all the 'seasoning' outta them, a reall no-no ( I know that now), but in my endeavour to excell, I screwed up.
Thats even more complex than just not giving a rats behind about your task. LOL. I over thunk it, and over did it...like a wanna be roofer with a bucket of tar.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Well, I took my job seriously, and when I finished washing all the pots and pans, the cooks were furious with me..I didn't understand...the pans were gleaming clean..WTF?
And thus a career change came about
Dishwashings loss is our gain!
Doug
Oh garsh..LOL What no internet forums for dishwashers?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
No, they do have a magazine though:
http://www.dishwasherpete.com/DishwasherTheZine/tabid/142/Default.aspxRebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
If your going to hack up the floor for a return You might as well make it worth it and hack out the whole opening.
Gunner,
When I see things like this..I wonder "what can I do to make my house plans better". If I can learn to locate all of the ductwork...I can show it on the plans. Then the framer can cut or "leave out" the opening instead of the HVAC guy hacking it up with a sawsall or a hatchet.
I went to a jobsite recently where the framer knew (because it was drawn) exactly where the ducts were going. The framer cut the holes in the I-Joists before they were installed 10 ft or more off the ground. Wow what a concept.
Of course you should pay the framer(and Architect) more and pay the duct guy less.
Saw one of those puppies last year....couldn't believe it!