Just had some gutters put up and I disagree with this particular detail. They are going to change it so they can get paid but I was weondering if I am out of line on this one. It seems it is form over function in my opinion.
The valley flashing is extended a few inches away from the fascia to rid water from this area. We all can agree to this. As you can see in the pics, the open-ended gutters are sending water BACK to this area. In addition, the gutter water and the valley water are meeting together in this leak rone area. I feel that a hard rain might do harm.
Would it not be wiser to cap the gutters and run a downspout to the lower section to control the water?
what do you think.
thanks
Replies
I agree with your reasoning.
What climate are you in ?
Prepare to get flamed for such large files. Some of the boys here don't take to those.
Which in this case is too bad. I've never seen a detail like what you show. I don't know what to say...
Somebody help this guy out.
the way your installer did it is the way I have seen it done here about 999 times out of a thousand.
the only times i have seen it cause a problem---and those are maybe 3 times in 20 years--was because a improperly set nail popped through a shingle below that drainage point-----actually the gutter had nothing to do with it--the water from the valley would have caused the leak by itself.
I can't fault your opinion and walters opinion on this--but putting the downspout at the other end has OTHER drawbacks. you now introduce a downspout and 3 or 4 elbows into the system--all of which are going to want to clog-and all of which are gonna clutter up the look.
again- i can't fault your opinion---but here the chances of your original installation ever being a problem are very,very slim.
Best wishes,
stephen
not sure where the elbows become involved.
Why cant the drop from the upper gutter come stright down through a downspout to the lower gutter..maybe put an elbow where it will land, (inside the lower gutter) just to aviod splashing and help guide the water to the nearst downspout.
If we did this, do you think one "redirect" downspout woul dbe enough or two?
This whole section is about 8 feet long.
I like the look of what he did. I am tempted to have him remove an amount the amount needed to meet the fascia, then there will be no chance of water getting in there. This would also be the easiest fix. downspout from the upper gutter to the lower gutter is not a look I enjoy...but it is functional.
"not sure where the elbows become involved.Why cant the drop from the upper gutter come stright down through a downspout to the lower gutter..maybe put an elbow where it will land,"".....maybe put an elbow where it will land....." BINGO! Theres the elbow that might clog.There are a lot of ways to prevent the outward thrust without adding the downspouts. A baffle at the end near the opening would do wonders but your idea of cutting a hole and directing one downspout onto the roof would work fine too, since I don't think there's a serious problem anyways. I think I've installed a flashing to dump the large volume of water onto the shingles which I assumed would slow down the friction and erosion. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't like the detail either and I agree that downspouts and elbows will clog.
I don't like the potential for a gushing flow to get up under the valley. I also don't like the large volume of water dumping onto the shingles and thus cause premature erosion.
I prefer to take my chances with the clogs but I've lived in a house that had both styles and the one with the elbows clogged. The one with the open gutter never gave me a problem: go figure. FYI, both houses with that connection were low pitched roofs (4/12) and that will change the possibilities of water intrusion.
As I post, I'm rethinking and it occurs to me that the volume of water rushing down the valley will counter the water pouring out of the gutter. So, if the volume from the valley is greater, the gutter will not be able to push past.
My suggestion based on that thought is to cut the gutter back another inch or so and don't worry about it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
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If I were designing your gutter system, I would spec a downspout from the upper gutter to the lower in this instance. I would elbow it back to the wall rather than drop it straight down becasue I think it looks better. I mostly use 60 and 45 degree elbows rather than 90 and 75 degree ones. They are less likely to clog, but that "elbow might clog" rap is somewhat bogus. More than likely, the water from that gutter is goinna go thru an elbow or two somewnere before it gets to the ground. The majority of the clogs I see are at the gutter outlet.
edit: The old guy I started out with, told me to make it work first, then start worrying about how it's gonna look.
http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Edited 2/20/2008 4:31 pm ET by seeyou
Grant--- if he puts in a downspot
I would elbow it back towards the house and then another elbow down----but there is gonna be what looks like a 16" section of downspout between those 2 elbows. what i see is the second elbow clogs--#### collects in the almost horizontal 16" downspout--stuff freezes and and the seam blows up ---we see THAT all the time
but our 90degree elbows probably contribute to that
stephen
cuta.. it's just an inelegant situation
i think both valleys are going to overflow the lower gutter.. there ain't no elephant ear that's going to stop it
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i think the lower gutter should be 6" instead of the 5" used
and the upper gutter will be fineMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i think the lower gutter should be 6" instead of the 5" used
and the upper gutter will be fine
'Round here, the gutter machine guys mostly have 5" machines, so about half my gutter jobs any more are replacing 5" with 6". I've fixed cutawooda's detail at least twice a year for I don't know how long. Leaves wash down the valley and catch on the gutter and block up that gap and that slows down the water evacution from the maelstrom that's created from water rushing from two directions.
When I install that detail, I cut an angled end cap and lay it right on the roof. Then I flash the valley into the end cap so the water keeps going downhill, but some of it goes into the dormer gutter. http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Hi Cutawooda
I agree that more drops and elbows are potential clogs but I dont see any trees above the gutters and can say that I have never seen this method of gutter dumping.
I would not accept it for several reasons.
1. I dont like the idea of water pushing out onto the gutters. (I make the contractors dump either 45 degree down or down into the other gutters (not across the roof)
2. No one does it in my area so it would be considered hokey round these parts.
However, like someone else said, if many of the homes in your area are done this way, it might not be the worst thing in the world.
I am convinced that this is a bad design. I have looked at it all day and decided that the soffet is lower than the gutter and it could get wet.
We have no trees. None. I am not thrilled about a 2 foot section of downspout going from he upper to the lower, but it seems to me that it would work better.
So, lets put a stamp of approval on this.
Would it be acceptable to cut back the existing angle cuts about 1 foot and straight cut it and cap it. Then plum down a downspout from the upper to the lower, (Still need to know if you think 1 is enough or will I need two.) I dont believe the upper that is in the picture needs its own designated downspout.
Thnaks for all the help. Sometimes I get a little obsessive about design details so I need you guys to keep me in check.
Since your roof is hipped above the piece you don't like the detailing of -- one downspout from the upper gutter to the lower as Seeyou outlined would be the best way to go.
There is no need for two drops.
Are you in a colder climate ?
no...north texas...doesnt rain too much but when it does, it rains fairly hard.
I think your resolution is perfect.
Yes, cutting the gutter back is fine as the upper roof water will still land on the lower roof.
I would put the downspout at the end of the run and drop it onto the lower roof, then put a splash guard on the lower gutter if there is excessive water running down.
(less downspout and less obtrusive)
Some people prefer running the downspout down and emptying right into the lower gutter but you end up with bulky and perhaps ugly downspouts.
Re. more spouts, probably not, but let your gutter guy make that determination. They have to come back if it overflows and add another one if they dont do it right this tiime. If you make the decision, then you own the next repair round.
Here's lotsa downspouts..we did this about a year ago or so.View Image
EDIT: Was gonna attach another..guess not.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Edited 2/21/2008 8:11 am ET by Sphere
Here is another.
Some arch's just hate roofers I think....
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Oooh, you used them cheap copper downspouts too.
Did you build the whole thing? Thats a little busy for me back there.
No, we just hung the gutters and DS's. Took a few weeks IIRC. Mostly just two of us. We had a third towards the end.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"