Hello All,
I am in the midst of finishing my basement. Aside from the unfriendly height of the basement (8’9″) and my limited ability to safely haul drywall home easily, I need to understand something that must be a basic newbie question about nailing/screwing drywall.
My concern is that when I butt two sheets up against one-another, I know to do this in such a manner that the end of one sheet and beginning of the next sheet is supported by the stud behind them. Fair enough, but how does one screw the perimeter os each of these two sheets into the same stud and make it look pretty?
Since the walls I am framing are not to be load-bearing (covering poured concrete walls), I thought about framing on 24″ centers instead of 16″. I can then recycle some of that nasty Certainteed (sp) shredded fiberglass batting (pulled from the joist cavities in another part of the basement it cannot be used in), which is cut into 24″ width strips.
Is the trick to simply screw the field and not the butt-joints?
Replies
I vaguely remember seeing something about "clips" you can use to hold the butt-joints together.
First hit on Google turned up:
http://www.prest-on.com/instabacks.htm
Check out the picture about middle way down the page.
SR placed on 24"centers has a tendency to show waviness/bowing between studs and look unprofessional. It is one major reason why, after the early seventies advent of framing exterior walls with 2x6 @ 24"oc, many of us went back to framing @ 16" OC.
You cut your sheet of SR to be able to attach the factory butt joint on the center of the stud. You may have angle your screws or nails very slightly to hit solid wood. You can use construction adhesive to minimize the number of fasteners you use and have both abutting sheets already fastened on the other field stud before doinbg the butt stud to avoid as much crumbling edge, if that's what you mean by "pretty". sSee the thread, Modern marvels.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Experience. Sometimes for the newbie it's easier to double up the studs at these joints. Unstead of using two full studs you can cut the second stud into 16" lengths and stagger the peices. TAADAA!
Another way is to have them meet between the studs and add a 2x4 on the flat at the seam. This method was described - and more elaborate - in a Tips & Techniques segment during this past year in FHB. Do a search.
SOP for a while now has been to NOT put butt ends on a stud. A lot of people still do it, but. . . .
Don
Don, never heard of this one for walls - for ceilings only. Isn't a wall more likely to open a hairline crack there from peolple leaning on it or whatever?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Not at all if done properly. USG has there handbook available for downloading on there site which explains this. It's in PDF format which doesn't allow for cut and paster, or I would have posted that info here also.
USG terms this as "back blocking application."
Don
Edited 12/28/2002 1:47:30 PM ET by Don C.
Dang! Now I know what sheetrockers do on the weekend after a long week of hanging rock. They hang here! Kudos!
DW, wow! Great information. I always wondered how ceilings at high elevations were done safely. Have you seen those things at any of the big boxes?
Piffin, I do acknowledge the 'waviness' of a drywall on such wide centers (24" OC), but I was also thinking it would save me from throwing away, or spending a lot of time creating scrap el'cheapo fiberglass batt pulled from another part of the basement. Could I use horizontal studding (blocking) to help reinforce the inter-stud wave potential?
Frankie, I thought of your suggestion, too. In fact, in the amateur activity of lifting a faux wall into place some wall-ends have the last studd hidden by the perpendicular wall. I thought of simply adding another stud for a nailing surface.
I figure if I have to I could make wall segments based on the 8, 10, and 12' lengths of drywall sheet products. BTW, can drywall be hung vertically, too? This is a basement application so I'm not looking for award-winning results (and I am a DIYer). Thank all for the quick replies, its really appreciated.
BTW, how do all of you get 54" wide sheetrock delivered to a personal project location?
Vertical is fine in a basement.
IMHO - vertical hanging of drywall is a bad idea and especially so if on 2' centers.
Buy the longest sheets you can handle, place them horizontally, and minimize the number of joints that need taping.
Terry
I really dislike carrying 12' drywall down basement stairs. Sometimes they die into a wall, or are so steep you can hardly get 8' pieces down there.
You asked about 54" drywall in another post. We are homeowners and had no trouble getting it delivered, also for our basement, and I didn't even order that much. I found that the pricing varied considerably from supplier to supplier, but all had it and all were willing to deliver...only thing is they only had it in 12 ft lengths across the board from supplier to supplier. That isn't too bad, but then they screwed up and sent 5/8 instead of 1/2. No problem except that is became too heavy for me and my husband to lift. Still, I think it is all worth it since we have 9ft walls and we didn't have to make any cuts. There is just one joint to finish.
Ours is a walkout basement, so moving the materials inside was no problem for my husband with another guy.
and another alternative to ending butts on a stud is to bridge the gap with a 12" piece of ply. You zip some inch wide cardboard strips down to staple to the edges of the ply, span the joint with the cardboard to the back of the drywall, and by sucking the edges down with screws you create a shallow depression to mimic your factory tapered edge. It IS more involved, and I've heard some gripe about wasting time, (you can make a bundle of these in short order, it really doesn't take very long) but if you're doing it for yourself, time isn't the same issue it is for others, and it does work quite well.
" We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita . . . "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." - J. Robert Oppenheimer
Actually, the time saved by not worrying about cutting boards to line up on studs more then covers the time needed to use butt hangers.
Don
Kartman,
The issue of what to do with the butt ends of sheet rock is an old and well-argued one! If you search around, you'll be able to find several solutions to this, some homemade, and some commercially available.
Personally, I prefer to avoid butt-to-butt joints whenever possible. If you keep the taper-to-taper joints, you'll end up with much better results, especially with your limited experience. This is because the tape and mud will stay within the "valley" provided by the two factory tapers. This way, you won't have an unsightly bulge that will show up in low-angle light, or will cause problems when you get around to installing trim.
I just do whatever it takes to keep taper-to-taper joints around the entire room (with the exception of corners, of course). If your walls are less than 12' long, you can hang the rock horizontally and avoid any butt joints. If not, I'd go ahead and put the wall panels in vertically.
To make screwing easier at the joints, you might try putting in some extra blocking so you don't need to fuss with angling screws, etc. You'll be able to figure out what way works best for you.
Finally, if you ARE faced with a butt-to-butt joint, a neat trick is to locate the joint over some blocking that is about 1/8" or so behind the plane of all the other framing members. When you screw the free edges of the rock into this recessed framing member, you'll create your own little valley which mimicks the factory tapers and has the same benefits.
Ragnar
Of course he could learn to finish dryall . Jeesh!
Tim Mooney
Tim, you are correct. Someday I think my wife will need brain surgery. I think I could learn to do that, too. Hahahaha.
Yes, I could very well learn to finish drywall, but do I do this through trial & error? I have no 'good' examples to learn from--my house was done by individuals that do not speak english, and relied heavily on their ability to read whatever was printed on the product itself. One day I will post pictures of my finished walls in the rest of my house.
One of the amazing things I now realize and will take note in the future is that when a 1st time home buyer/owner walks into their future home they are not trained to see the detail in a poorly constructed home. It took me a good 3-6 months as a 1st timer to recognize the poorly hung drywall and many other aspects I had hoped to avoid by not buying a starter home first. I have now learned how to see the bad detail in home construction.
But time is of the essence and I suppose that is why some recognized that and offered what they have offered, which is some good words of advice. Simply stating I could learn to finish drywall isn't enough because you are stating the obvious. Its just not too applicable. Cheers!
I think everyone is asuming that you are hanging the sheets vertically, rather than
horizontally (as they should be hung). I don't know the length of walls you are
covering but you can buy sheet rock in 4' x 10', (and 4' x 12') at most home centers.
If your wall falls within that length the only joints you have to worry about are
horizontal between an upper and lower sheet. The joints would be well supported
and easy to cover. By the way, I would go with 16in stud centers.
Hanging sheets horizontally is done for structural intergrety. If these are just floating walls next to a poured or block basement wall, you have no integrety to maintain. Really, check out USG's handbook online. It will explain all this to you.
Don
Don, I will check out that information on USG's website. I have previously conversed with a USG rep regarding the SKU for black ceiling tiles for orders less than 10K SqFt (only need 350SqFt).
That's a pretty bold statement...
"Horizontal, as they shoud be......"
It's freaking drywall......hand it the best way to make for the easiest finishing....
Ya know....like maybe....vertical!
Waht...are we gonna lose the structural integrity of the drywall if it's done otherwise?
And yes....I do know drywall....like most all building products...has a "grain"....which runs lengthwise along the sheets....I just don't think it's worth thinking about when talking about drywalling basement walls.
Run it vert if it'll keep ya to finishing butt joints.....it's freaking drywall......the base and shoe has more structural properties then the damn drywall.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Here in earthquake country, sheetrock counts for zero shear value, so like you said...with solid blocking or over shear panel, not much difference.
Some folks say it's harder to tape vertical seams...
Vertical has worked for me, had no problems come up with it done that way on projects from 9 or 10 years ago.
J
Jen,
That's the first I've heard that they are giving you zero shear value for drywall. I'm not sure where you're at, but I did some work in LA a month ago and we were given a shear value. Funny how things vary from area to area and state to state.
Don
OKk, I would like to thank everyone that has posted thus far and please do continue. I think only by continuing this thread that I can regain my sanity that now sits in a dazed and confused state, hehe.
I have heard from some, but not all, GC's in my area (Atlanta, Hell--ahem, Georgia) that they have one crew come in and hang the rock and a completely different crew (and different company) that muds and tapes their spec/track properties. I wonder if it would be worth it to hire a M&T crew?
Has anyone else ever heard of this art being segregated into differing crews/companies? I would imagine that and experienced crew could mud and tape rather quickly provided that a pre-job inspection affords the rock was hung in an acceptable manner.
Unfortunately, I have yet to stumble upon a drywall crew I could actually communicate with. I don't speak Spanish (very little German, but that's it), and haven't found anyone on a rocking/M&T crew that speaks any English. Doh!
Hanging and finishing crews are very common. In this area for new construction it's rare that both are done by the same crew or company.
Don
Around here too.
However, have you thought of it this way:
If it is more common in your area to have separate crews/ companies, the the tapers are probably more accustom to "dealing" with installers inconsistancies. The trick would then be to find good installers. They are out there.
Unfortuately the single hire HO has less oppertunity to find the good one(s). That's the risk they assume when acting as their own GC.
Ya get what ya pay for (most of the time).
In my area there's both- most of the crews working big projects are split between installers and finishers. I don't do any big stuff, so when drywall time comes, I hang it myself but gladly write the check for the finishers. The two guys I usually work with accomplish in 2 hours what it would take me a day or more to do, and they barely have to sand anything when they're done! That's some of the best money I spend...
Here is a totally different aspect from the perspective of someone with a very un-talented drywall capability.
Go for a good hardwood paneling, assuming you have no water problems, which would be a whole other story.....
Since you are against a concrete wall, forget the drywall altogether. The only time I do drywall is for firecode reasons. (my taping ability for appearance is near zero even after years of trying so it's one of the few things I've given up on).
Ron, the theater room (which will be almost flat-black in color, is a room measuring 12.5' by 26.5' with 8' elevations to soffits. The other rooms are from 16'x18' to 25'x15' with 8 and 8'9" elevations. Because the HVAC sub simply ran the ducts underneath the joists (instead of through it, which was an option) and because most of the subs had a 'devil may care' attitude during the construction, I'll have to build soffits in some rooms and hang ceiling in other rooms.
Unless I pay out the nose to another HVAC crew to complete re-invent my basement (quotes from $1800-3600 have been garnered, mostly labor costs), I will see a long road ahead of soffit building and complex rocking hanging, and drop ceiling installations. Its depressing I assure you--the wife got depressed yesterday trying to analyze the difficulties.
BTW, we had gotten quotes to have someone come in and finished the basement to rough form (i.e. no trim work, we run all wiring and lights, etc.) and it was $26K!. This was for an 1100 SqFt basement where framed over concrete walls and sheetrock hanging was the only menu items being served. Ouch!
Kartman, Don't despair. Hang it vertical (I'll get grief for that one except from Jeff). Use a little adhesive (PL 200 buck a tube). Use drywall nails at the seams, the heads don't break out the drywall like screws do. Stay away from the very edge and drive them at a little angle. The adhesive is doing the holding anyway. Now for the finishing. Get a bucket of warm water and throw a few 8' pcs of tape in there to soak, apply mud to seam and apply wet tape and embed w/ knife. Another thin coat of mud and let dry. Keep mudding and remember "thinner is a winner".
JALDEN63,
Hey, I won't give you grief for hanging rock vertically, either - count me in! ;)
Ragnar
Thanks man
Be careful advising that thinner is a winner. Too many people who don't know better squeeze too much mud out from under the tape and it ends up with dry bubbles and buckles. Why do you wet the tape?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Pif, Yes you're right on the squeeze out, so much of mudding is technique. As far as wetting the tape it is how I was shown. It tends to not pull the moisture out of the mud. I was always having the edge of the tape not adhere after drying. Is there a better way? The thinner was in reference to subsequent coats not the first, I should have been more clear. I am certainly not an expert just made a lot of mistakes.
J.
Jal
Far as screws and glue at the seams....seams to me if youre careful no screws heads should break and as far as the glue goes...can't hurt, but all its holding is a thin layer of the backing paper...and nails on any angle is going to rip the paper of the rock and compromise the holding power IMO.
I go with screws screws screws.
Be well
Namaste
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy, I meant the rock would break not the screw. Kinda crumbles when the head is recessed. Like I said I'm no expert just learned some things the hard way <G>
Jald
If you use a screwgun with the head set at the proper depth the screw holes shouldnt crumble. If you don't have a screw shooter and don't want to spend the money then you can buy attachments for your drill that mimick the screw gun and do the same job pretty much. Its just a feel you need to get and once you've done enough drywall you shouldnt have much of a problem. I use only a few nails to hang the rock initially..then I go back after a board is up and shoot my screws. I use maybe six nails on each board at most.
I think the edges crumble for some folks because the installer DYS alot of times from my observations doesnt hang the boards dead center of the studs and is therefore left with maybe a 1/4" or so for the following board....so when he/she goes to screw it in theres not much surface to screw into hence crumbling rock. The only choice at that point IS nails.
Be a wall
Namaste
Andy
Be well
Namaste
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The good folks at USG told me that the paper tape is supposed to suck the moisture out of the compound. This insures a good bond. The problem lies in that newbies tend to play with the tape too much after applying it. Spread the compound, apply the tape, drag your 3" or 4" knife across once, MAYBE twice, and LEAVE IT ALONE. Experience is an important part of the job along with paying attention to effects OF techniques, ie: knife angle and pressure. Believe it or not, the reason the tape is pulling away at the edges is because a) your are not applying enough compound to the joint and/ or b) you are squeezing too much out. Doing it properly takes practice.
Wet tape also has very little strength. Instead of developing your technique of how to work with wet tape, learn how to work with compound.
Frankie,
I kinda thought the compound was not wet enough to start with. Do you use it as is or add water?
First coat - ALWAYS AS IS, but I do stir all my compound with a drill prior to use. This smooths out the compond quite a bit and makes application easier. You can get around this by mashing it while it's on your hawk. I find it easier to do it all at once though in the bucket. It kinda depends how much I have to tape.
Do use a hawk or a trough/ mud pan? I have one guy that refuses to even try the hawk. I don't get it. No accounting for habits.
Only add water for the polish coat(s) or when skimming the entire wall. When skimming though, I try not to use water on the first coat. Water thins the compound too much and creates too much shrinkage when dry.
Incidently, coumpound if manufactured to be applied to a bone dry surface. The suction created by the dry surface is essential for the bonding process. That's why you don'y apply compound to compound that has not dried completely. Plaster however, is intended to be applied to damp surfaces (if not using a chemical bonding agent) as when applying the veneer coat to the brown coat. This insures that the undercoat does not suck the moisture out of the veneer coat causing improper drying and popping.
Anything else?
I wasn't beating up on ya. Just never heard of wetting it first. It could be that your mud is too thick. I wet my mud down a little and top coat as soon as I tape, then hit second and third coats on subsequent days - and I'm no mud 'spert either but the ultra thin uinderlayer is one of the most common errors I see for beginners.
You're right, technique is one thing that's hard to learn from a book or online - gotta be shown..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Pif, No apologies needed. This being an open forum for the exchange of information everyone should be able to back up what they post. Sort of like a peer review. After I started wetting the tape my results improved. Reading some of the other posts I'm not sure what the consensus is. Like there is such a thing.<G> I hope the posts keep coming, it is very informative. Thanks
J.
Wet tape was introduced in a wet banjo years ago to wet the tape before contacting with mud. Wet tape bonds to drier mix mud , solving a problem of straight mix mud taping with no thinning. A beginnners first problem is to tape with non thinned mud with dry tape thus causing bubbles because of splotchy adhesion .
ALL;
The best way is to thin the mud as best as "you can handle it ". You fill boo boos with unthinned mud before taping . Then its a matter of taping over all tight seams hopefully. Soaking strips of tape would surely give great adhesion to any mix of mud the user chose , but not necesary with a quart of water to a four gallon box of USG joint compound.
The banjo uses a drier mix than a bazooka , so if Im using a banjo I soak whole rolls in a five gallon bucket the same day useage. This is not a bad idea with hand taping . But to cut length strips of tape would surely be too slow. MOtape MOmoney ROll on !
Tim Mooney
Tim, you want to see slow watch me, it's painfull
Any of you folks around the NE Atlanta area? Maybe I can come a watch the pro's do their thing for a day.
I might have you beat.
'Course I only drywall for my own stuff. One thing about drywallers is they aren't paid enough for what they do. Sure hope you GC's took care of you drywall subs this Christmas. That's a thankless trade.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
AHA! Wetting tape when using a bango - means your experienced AND you are mixing your own compound. The mixing part of your post would most likely go right over the heads of inexperienced "tapers". Dry mixes have a) less shrinkage, b) greater water component control (you are "adding" less while with readymix compound it is IMPOSSIBLE to add LESS water) and c) Drymix dries much faster creating suction of the water from the tape. It is next to impossible to tape using a drymix and dry tape unless you "thin" the drymix conciderably or wet the tape.
I don't mean to jump all over you but it is misleading to assume that newbies (the original poster and follow-uppers) even know dry mix compound even exists or how to use it - dry times of 30, 60, or 90 mins. I am sure a few are thinking "How do I determine which buckets of compound from HD is dryer than the others on the pallet?" A seasoned poster like you (1,280 posts) should be more know better. Tisk, tisk.
I think you better read my post again .
Are you saying in your post that you tape with mud that isnt thinned ?
Tim Mooney
As I stated in one of my posts - I only thin the readymix compound for the polish coat. Never for the first coat. If you stir the compound up you will find that it is thin enough to begin with.
If I am using a drymix for taping, I mix it to the same consistancy as readymix. If using it for patching (drywall dings or old plasterwall repairs) it is a much stiffer. The advantage of a drymix is that it dries quickly allowing for multiple coats in the same day but the luxury of fielding a phone call disappears. With a drymix compound, the clock is always ticking. When time is up, that batch is done regardless if the user is or not.
"As I stated in one of my posts - I only thin the readymix compound for the polish coat. Never for the first coat. If you stir the compound up you will find that it is thin enough to begin with. "
So you are a hand finisher that also likes a hawk and trowel?
Tim Mooney
No, I don't like the hawk and trowel - I LOVE the hawk and trowel. But that has nothing to do with anyone else. Whatever works for you - in terms of tools. BTW, my first coat of compound goes on with a 3" or 4" KNIFE. The "sanding" between coats is done with a 6" or 10" KNIFE. The rest of the compound is applied with a TROWEL.
Note: I do not use an American made trowel. They are much too stiff. Sanding is at a minimum.
Frankie,
That's odd. I have a slew of German, French and Italian trowels for decorative plastering, and not a one is anywhere near as thin as a Mashalltown(my preference) or any other for that matter. My opinion is that mud doesn't have the oily, slick feel of plaster and it's not much good for a trowel. I do know a lot that disagree with me, but it just doesn't slide like plaster so I'll use a knife for flat box.
Don
Which Marshalltown trowel do you have? It may be thinner (I'll have to check mine tomorrow) but I'll bet it has no where near the flex that the my trowel has. When I spoke to the fine people at Marshalltown they admitted that their trowels do not flex like the European trowels. Mine flexes as much as my 10" or 12" blue steel knifes, which are fine tools.
I began taping and skimming with USG's readymix compound (green lid) using a hawk and knife. At the time I didn't even know the metal boxes existed. Then I was taught by an Italian plaster man from the old country to use a trowel for plaster but never had success using it for compound. It did not have the sensitivity/ flexibility for compound. During one of my travels I found this really flexible trowel and have not looked back. It has doubled my pace. It's easier on my arms and shoulders, I have greater control to create a dead flat surface and sanding is almost eliminated.
I have recently been using a lot of drymix joint compound for speed sake. Wonderful stuff. No more making "hot mixes". The 30 min JC works great. You can almost set your watch to it.
When I was in CA a few years ago I did a job using Gold Bond(?) Compound, black lid. Unbelievable stuff. Don't get that in NYC. Found some once a year or two ago but it just wasn't the same. Maybe a dif recipe.
Now here's where I might loose credibility. My crew was reluctant to use it and wouldn't until I forced them. USG's Light Weight Joint Compound, blue lid. Stir that up with a d-handle mixer and your off to the races. Now, if the supplyhouse runs out of LWJC my crew won't use the regular stuff. Go figure!
Ive recieved enough information to make a comment now . The post that you questioned of me , I was talking about USG redimix , not powder , as you thought.
http://www.tapetech.com is where my world is at in the line of finishing and its totally different to hand finishing and practices of thinning mud. What I have learned from the tools has taught me that some things do carry over to hand finish.
Don, works with plaster primarily over drywall is my guess .
Thats why its really a discussion , not an absolute . I enjoy hearing others talk about their work which is why we are brought together here in Breaktime. Ive got the experience to back up my posts , I just dont flaunt it .
I opened a dicussion about rentals and enjoyed all that was said from different types of lanlords doing different things . It was a positive experience .
Tim Mooney
Tim, I have been following your posts and have always respected your comments and insights. If I didn't learn something, you at least made me rethink the issue. Thank you for that.
But.....
What were you thinking when bringing up an automated taping method to a DIY poster, with almost zero taping experience, for recommendations of how to tape a wall in his basement??!!
And......
You now clearify that you were "talking about USG redimix , not powder, as you (I) thought." Well, I'm still trying to figure out how you stiffen readymix compound. Please tell.
I hope I am not fluanting my experience. I'm just trying clearify methods and materials and tell of my experiences so others don't make the same mistakes I have - and man, I've made more than most. It's up to others to accept or reject it. No harm, no foul.
I look forward, as always, to your future posts. Happy New Year!
Tp 26029.37 in reply to 26029.30
To Piffin,
Wet tape was introduced in a wet banjo years ago to wet the tape before contacting with mud. Wet tape bonds to drier mix mud , solving a problem of straight mix mud taping with no thinning. A beginnners first problem is to tape with non thinned mud with dry tape thus causing bubbles because of splotchy adhesion .
ALL;
The best way is to thin the mud as best as "you can handle it ". You fill boo boos with unthinned mud before taping . Then its a matter of taping over all tight seams hopefully. Soaking strips of tape would surely give great adhesion to any mix of mud the user chose , but not necesary with a quart of water to a four gallon box of USG joint compound.
The banjo uses a drier mix than a bazooka , so if Im using a banjo I soak whole rolls in a five gallon bucket the same day useage. This is not a bad idea with hand taping . But to cut length strips of tape would surely be too slow
Frankie , sorry to post a whole post , but this is what I said .
Tim Mooney
Have you ever used the fiberglass self adhesive tape? I've been using it for a few years, it saves some time wetting the paper tape...it requires the first coat to be the "setting" type you mentioned, so it doesn't crack afterwards.
Jen
Whatever works
We do use it but not in corners. We mostly use it for repairing old plaster/ masonry walls and the setting type of JC.
As fo GWB walls, It is another type of material so to stock both in the proper quantity gets to be cumbersome. Bebieve it or not it offers choice to the crews which leads to inconsistancies in pace. I am trying to set up my sites as Henery Ford would have - using the assembly line concept. My guys are smart but the less they have to "think" the more they can focus on speed and getting into a rythm.
We do use fiberglass rolls 36" wide when skim coating plaster walls which have too many cracks to rapair individually. Now thta's a material I wish came 54" wide.
For the drywall manufactures:
Why not manufacture drywall sheets with the tapered edges on all 4 sides so that the mud, tape & finish coat has a place to go to and end up with a nice flat finish . Not a lump as what happens when you tape and finish a verticle butt joint without the taper.
Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
Would anyone care to elaborate on how the cut out the openings for the wall outlets and switches, and the ceiling light boxes? Also, when one is planning on a sheetrocked ceiling in addition to the walls, should the do the ceiling first (seems like the way to go, but what do I know, hehe) and then the walls?
Does it matter when sheetrocking a wall that will take exactly two sheets (maybe one cut down a little) if the top horizontal sheet is placed at top, first, and then the bottom sheet vs. the reverse case?
Yes, the ceiling is usually done first. Walls are hung top to bottom. A lot of people like to go bottom up on the walls, but it's not the way to do it although it is easier.
I surely havn't tried all the European trowels, but the Marshalltown I use are the broken in plastering trowels. The European trowels I do use are the Inox (SS) for decorative plastering. Very thick blade with feathered edge. On a used trowel, the edge is like a razor blade.
Don
there have been times in my carpentry career that i have had to draw on my art background, and create a nontraditional solution to a traditional problem. here are a couple of possible solutions to the issue of butt joints:
1) avoid them entirely. order long sheets.
2) learn to schmear and float like a madman
3) if the rest of the house, or the next room, is not flat, make the new work look like the xtg walls
4) learn to use real plaster
5) install your own blocking set back shy of the stud plane to create a mudwell
6) hang a standard buttjoint, cut through the paper 1/16" or so on both sides of the joint, peel the paper down the 48 or 54" and create a mudwell.
7) hang every sheet vertically, and have enough 4-6" rips of plywd handy to scab behind the factory mudwell joints.
8) learn to use a darby.
good luck.
Kartman, Rotozip for the elec boxes. Watch the wires if they are in already, push them to the back, don't set the bit any deeper than you need. Plunge into the elec box opening, find the edge of the mud ring, bounce to the outside of the ring and follow it around w/ a little backcut on the drywall. Mud your screw ups. Oh yeah the drywall should not be screwed tight yet, just enough to hold it in place. Ceiling first then the upper board on the wall pushed up tight to hold the edges of the ceiling. You on vacation this week? Rock on. Pros- did I tell him right?
J.
Another Rotozip tip, always go around the box/switch/etc CCW ( or was it clockwise) I forget, that way the bit spin will keep you against the box. Otherwise it will want to track out into the sheet and mean more mud and sanding <g>. Not that it ever happened to me. Either way, you'll find which direction works best.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
Counterckockwise is the way to go. Takes some practice to get the feel for doing it. You'll probably mess up the sides of a couple of boxes first. But it sure beats the old way of measuring and cutting the openings ahead of time.I went to a ball game and visited the concession stand. I got three concessions and a compromise.
"You on vacation this week?" Last week, yes, this week no. I work second shift, which I do not have to get ready for wook until 1:45-2:00PM. Why do you ask?
The time of your post
1. The top sheet is hung first to ensure that its weight is being carried by the studs instead of the lower sheet and to insure that the top sheet is tight to the ceiling. Shoddy work screams at the ceiling/ wall joint. If you are installing crown moulding this is not as critical. If you insist on installing lower sheet first (one man job?) lay a few very thin shims on the top edge of the lower sheet before installing the top sheet. After the top sheet is screwed in take the shims out. Now the wieght is transfered to the stud.
2. The reason you don't screw the sheets completely prior to cutting out the electrical boxes will become evident while you're rocking. The e boxes are proud of the stud (thickness of the GWB) and won't allow you to screw it tight.
3. Roto-zip - Hey, a new tool to add to your collection! Actually it's a mini-router (oops, sensitive point). This will speed up the installation. Make sure the wiring inside is dead, pushed in tight to the rear wall of the box and does not have wire caps. They tend to clutter the box at this point and offer something more for the RZ to catch. Test the RZ first on a scrap peice of GWB for minimal depth to get the job done.
4. If you don't want to purchase a RZ (can't imagine why not) you can use a sheetrock saw. Takes more time but works fine. Either way start in the middle and cut towards the box wall. Then follow the perimeter. With the saw I prefer to cut along the OUTSIDE of duplex boxes (3 sides only, stud on 4th). Longer stroke and cuts can overlap a bit. Still find the edge from the inside of the box. Note: locating the screw holes with either method may pose a problem. I find it easier to deal with once the primer coat is on. The primer offers some surface stability so the paper does not fray/ tear as much.
5. If you can, take a polaroid/ photo of the open walls for your job documentation book/ file. It's amazing how much info is there and lost once the walls are closed up. Also, you'd be surprised how many e boxes are "lost" when rocking.
Ray,
I posted a thread last month on this exact same topic! However, it didn't really get much attention. I'm not sure if people just didn't see it, or if those in the trade are just used to doing things the way they've been doing it for years.
Sometimes it's hard to get people to change old habits. One guy here told a story about the using a folding wooden rule for years under his supervisor. One day, he sees a plumber using a coiled and wound steel tape. "Wow! We have to get one of those", he says. His supervisor is obviously resistant to change: "Naw, that's for plumbers, not carpenters." ;)
I think having tapered ends as well as edges would be great. I have to figure it would be cheaper to apply the extra tapered edges at the factory as opposed to fighting with alternate solutions in the field.
Regards,
Ragnar
However, a speciality drywall product as you described with the entire perimeter tapered could command quite a premium in the marketplace. I'd buy it.
It probably hasn't been done because the retooling costs and changing the process is cost prohibitive until someone does provide the product.
Then sales fly at the premium price and standard drywall demand from the competitors decreases. Suddenly everyone is scampering to retool to provide for the demand for 4 sided tapered drywall and a new product innovation becomes an established norm.
The rest is history.
Until a better product comes along.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Not too many rockers will use a rotozip. They don't speed up a good crew and they make a mess.
Don
"Not too many rockers will use a rotozip. They don't speed up a good crew and they make a mess."
I've never seen a pro who didn't use one, around here. What do they do in your area?I put tape on the mirrors in my house so I don't accidentally walk through into another dimension.
Goes to show how things change from area to area. They cut with the typical drywall saws, Keyhole and handsaws. About the only pros around here using them are the tile guys and the EIFS foam installers.
Don
Rez,
Just think of all that plaster the manufacture will save by making the drywall edge a little thinner on 2 edges and 2 sides of the board. Then mutiply that by 5 million boards or so and Walla "Done" Possibly at a savings to them after all is said and done....
But no ! How can the CEO make another billion of so on this "Great Wonderful Idea" And thats the problem with the manufactures not mooving thier --- on this .$$MONEY!Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
Ya, it usually always comes down to that.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
uhuh! You Bet....Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
Since I'd rather have teeth pulled than finish the butt edges, (bunch of others seem to feel almost the same) I'd pay twice as much for a sheet with 4 tapered edges.
If there's enough call for something, I believe the gypsum industry could come up with the technology...man, can you imagine how cool it would be to see that product show up at a Big Box?
Lowe's might be a little more progressive in the introduction of a product like that, since they seem to cater to DIYers...
Jen
whatever works good
Ragnar,
You know what puzzles me? Why didn't they do this from the get go.Seems to me all you have to do is turn the sheet 90 degrees and make another pass under the "crusher" ! I don't think to put tapered edges on all 4 sides of a piece of sheet rock would be as difficult as building another "LEM" or bring back a "blown capsule " from the moon.
What do you think?
Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
The mud on the tapers is not the same as the rest of the board. Considering the way board is cut, could they run some kind of roller across the board while the gypsum is still wet to give it a taper? I suppose. Wonder what the board would cost? Butt joints aren't really all that difficult though.
Don
Don,
The board should cost less. Look at all the plaster they would save making the edges a little thinner.... and it would weigh less... yada,yada,yada
And what a beautiful job it will be after its installed and finihed coating.
But on a serious note I usually use full length boards all the time (as practical as I can be) and we have very few problems..
Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
Ray,
Why didn't they start with tapered edges all around in the first place? I don't know the history of sheetrock well enough to give you an answer. I'd be willing to bet that the first product didn't have any tapers at all. I remember reading once that the first "plaster board" product goes back to the Victorian period. Also, I remember reading that the first sheets were incredibly heavy. It wasn't until someone accidentily produced a batch with air bubbles in it that it was found they could be made lighter this way and that they still held up OK.
I've been told that modern production facilities produce a sheet that is several hundred feet long. Then, it is cut to length to fill demand (8's, 9's, 10's, 12's, whatever).
I don't know this for sure, but I think that the tapers are made with pressure rollers on the long sheet while it is still a bit wet. That would be the reason they don't put the tapers on the butt ends at present. Also, I don't think any material would be "saved" in the thinner tapered sections. That is, the tapered edges are (I think) simply denser, because they have less air bubbles. When you cut into the tapered parts, this seems to be the case, at least.
I agree that a fully-tapered product could be sold at a premium, and that it would render the old stuff obsolete. It will probably happen eventually. Maybe we need to write some letters!
Ragnar
" Maybe we need to write some letters! "
Anybody know whom to write to ??? Might be interesting to see what kind of response we get.I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers done, so now I just have to fill in the rest.
Just for the hell of it, I fired off an email to [email protected] asking them about this. I'll post back if they answer me. There's a lot to be said for not talking so much.
Thanks Boss,
I'm definitely interested to hear what they say. I'll send my own letter someday today too, to give them the illusion of popular demand. ;)
Ragnar
If you try to taper both directions, isn't the paper going to wrinkle or crease at the intersecting corner?
If you try to taper both directions, isn't the paper going to wrinkle or crease at the intersecting corner?
Mugsy,
I don't really think that overlapping tape would cause a problem - especially if mesh tape were used. But if it did, you could always just cut the tape at an intersection so that overlap didn't occur.
Ragnar
I wasn't referring to tape, rather the discussion of tapering the sheets at the factory on both the long and short edges. I can't envision how they would be able to avoid the little crease or fold that would develop at the corner.
I really like the suggestion I saw earlier -- 12 footers horizontal - 5/8ths becasue its 24" centers - top and bottom and a 1/2 in in the middle because the floor to ceilign is over 8'. That way you'd be able to get a good finish, lose the wavieness, and work at 'belly' height. all the best
Hang a full top sheet first, then a full middle sheet, then the strip of lower sheet. The factory tapered edges will all meet and the cut edge will be behind the baseboard. Also one taped seam will be so low that no one will notice it. Especially as much as 2 taped seams inches away from each other, in the middle (belly height) of the wall. Again especially, if you are not proficient at taping.
if you finish horizontal you will have a 8' seam every 4', add up the lineal feet of seam and see which would be easier to finish, with a basement that size I think that you will have a much easier time hanging horizontally, we only hang vertically on short walls etc, to minimize joints.
Yes on the suggestion of buying 10 foot sheets.
DW is cheap. Use 24 if you feel like it but if you do use 5/8" You have no reason to go 24 oc really. 2x4's are cheap as well. If you go 16 oc you will probably find you are buying 4 more 2x4's.
Time to stand back and think about the real labor. Taping & mudding take 3 x longer than hanging the rock. Avoid but joints on the flat. Let the but joints be in corners (if hanging horizontally and you can hide both ends) If vertically then of course put the ceiling up first and then put the butt up to hold the edge of the ceiling in place.
>>> Hit the magazine rack and find the Taunton press issue on Drywall. In fact check out most of the Taunton softcover books on building there. The drywall book is worth the price.
Last thought Measure 2 times when placing the studs for the DW walls. Work OC (On Center) for your measurements. And plan how the joints will land on the wall. (I mean the sheets get attached right to left or some predictable pattern.)
To your original question, did anyone mention butthangers that were written up in Fine Homebuilding #145 (March 2002), page 116? http://www.butthanger.com 888-292-1002. I've never used them nor do I tape drywall, but they look like the'd do what you want...