hi folks, i am a new guy to posting around here , so be gentle. so here is a quick backgruond and question.
i am the construction manager for a habitat for humanity affiliate in americus,ga. we currently side our houses with vinyl siding, but i have made the decision to crossover to hardiplank as our primary siding. ok here is the question. we currently use osblah on our corners and dow blue board in the feild for sheathing,we wrap our corners with tyvek and tape our blue board seams. what do you guys feel about that for the backing for starting to use hardi plank? any alternatives ,comments, your way?
much thanks,
shuff
Replies
the hardie web site has a lot of info
I'll probably get chewed on for this, but, I for one, want to congratulate you on making a good decision (to use hardiplank). Good for you!
Yeah, it kind of saddens me to see the Habitat homes made with vinyl (which is what they use here, too). It's cheap and easy for unskilled labor to install, and it meets a Habitat goal to minimize exterior maintenance on the home, but it can get ratty looking pretty fast, especially if rambunctous kids knock holes in it, etc.
If I had my druthers they'd use the same Masonite we used on this house, but that's probably not available any more, and it has an (undeserved) bad rep that scares folks away. Looks a lot nicer, not terribly expensive, much more durable, but it takes more skill to install and ya gotta paint it.
The Hardi is apparently even harder to install (air nailer pretty much required, which becomes a liability issue for Habitat, plus a lot harder to cut), but it should be even more durable.
Ah, I never thought about the difficulty of installation. Good point.
I think the difficulty of installation rap is just a myth. I love installing Hardie plank and find it really easy to work with. I think the rap comes more from the resistance to change. For many styles of homes, I think that Hardie is an excellent choice...and not just the low budget ones either. Awesome product and reasonably priced IMHO. I think that it would actually be more popular if it was a little more expensive!
FWIW....it's really not bad at all to hand nail it with DHD galvy roofers. SS siding nails are a little tough to hand bang though. I'll stick with my gun.
If you're used to pounding nails all day, it may not seem that bad, but even a relatively experienced DIYer will probably end up bending three nails to get in one.
You might be right Dan, but still.... roofing nails gotta be the easiest of hand nails to pound. Short stout shank, nice big head. Seriously, the Hardie isn't that bad at all. You've got to bang roofers for the vinyl anyway, right? Just hit 'em a little harder is all.
Difficulty of installation is more than a myth - it's a plain, outright LIE! I have been Hardiplanking my well house. It is slicker to run up than a snot dipped eel (But those are not allowed in my house - the couth officer, AKA wife, frowns on them.) I solved the problem very nicely - I pre drill holes & use Grabber screws. Never break anything, don't bend anything, takes little skill, just patience. You can train an uncoordinated ape to do it in a snap. And how much do you pay the hired help on an HfH house? Hmmmmm? And just how efficient is it? And how many of them have been working together on siding day in & day out?
This decision is an absolute no-brainer.
Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Yeah, when we did our house in Masonite, we pre-drilled -- after the first 2-3 boards. That's probably the way to go on an HfH project, since it works well with one person cutting, one drilling and two hanging -- good use of warm bodies. The cutter and driller have to be reasonably sharp, but the hangers just have to line up on a chalk line and pound. (That's the other thing -- use a story pole and mark every 10 feet or so, then do chalk lines if the marks aren't near the board ends.)
i agree with you on the bum wrap but how do you feel about using hardi over the dow blue board? i have used hardi during my years as a contractor but never on top of this blue foam . i always used ply or osblah as the sheathing. my concern is over possible wave of the siding because the siding will have a "softer" sheathing to attach to , and habitat volunteers have a way of trying to overdrive a nail into anything. yes it is a habitat house but i am very concerned with the best house i can produce for the budget i have to work with . i dont want to go to hardi and have a house that looks worse than one with vinyl siding because of a poor choice in sheathing.
thanks , shuff
i totally agree with your first paragraph. yes we try to build to simple,decent and affordable but my beleif is that just because of this does not mean quality and workmanship should be sacrificed. a little bit harder with volunteers though. then again some our best volunteers are true craftsman that want to produce the best possible end result with what materials they are given. any suggesstions on air nailer brands and nails? (our staff does have the ability to use air nailers while volunteers are not around)
thanks, shuff
thanks for the support, vinyl siding has been a real thorn in my side for way to long. time to move on.
shuff
Hardie is good stuff.
The company does little advertising tho -- strange
i have noticed also, no advertising around here. but every job site i roll by is using it
shuff
I disagree with the predrilling- I am doing my house in hardie right now and using ss fibercement screws from McFeeley's. The have the chisel point which makes predrilling unnecessary, and they have ribs underneath the head which helps bury the head flush. With SIP's, screws are almost the only way to attach it since there are no studs to nail to. Only down side- they are pricey.
what kind of price range for the screws ? how many?
i will check back later time to go to work and see how much sheetrock we can lug today. i thank you again.
shuff
I don't like the idea of using the blue board foam . You will probably see what looks like waves on your finnished surface . I have installed alot of hardi , I love the stuff. I'm sure you have a tight budget but you want your finnished product to look good . Use plywood or believe me you and others will be sad that you did'nt. Also make sure you nail the hardi to the studs . Some guys just nail it to the plywood . Good luck.
ah thanks for the reply , thats what i thought for the blue board, only problem is we get the stuff free by the semi load. something else you hit on, on stud joining. a lot of folks around here off stud join when nailing over osb shaething, dont like but some say the alternate to that is using some type of off stud joining bracket? havent seen any before but have you seen anything like that? i just am a little worried about waste. but my first concern is about quality so thanks for the help.
shuff
The time it takes to nail to a stud properly , is probably shorter than attatching clips . It's great that you get the material free. See if you can get it in 1/2 " plywood. It's better to stand back , look , and say I'm glad I did the job right . Than to stand back , look , and say I should have . The last thing you want to do finnish the job and have it look like **** . Believe me you will be juged by others in the end.
your right, sometimes i just need someone to help confirm a good choice. sounds like you have dealt with hardiplank quite a bit. any suggesstions for cornerboards, i would like to use a material that is just as durable as hardi but have not keot up with too many of the new products. kinda keep using the same thing repeatedly because of what was set before i got here, tryin to change that though. thanks for the input.
shuff
I like to use Azek or Koma for the trim package on a FC sided home, but of course that gets pricey quick.
Hardie makes a trim board out of FC. I believe, but may be wrong, that it is 3/16" thick. It actually goes over the hardieplank. I remember seeing Mike Guertin demo it at JLC two years ago and thinking it odd that window trim and cornerboards would go over the siding, but that is the detail they spec out. It's tough to digest, but the finished product was quite nice looking.
FC? kinda dont know all these abbr. yet. wmat width ranges do the corners come in? havent seen any cornerboards in a while that go over the hardi but ive been stuck on habita sites for a while. if Mike Guertin used i would think it to a good product.
shuff
ah hah !! FC , fiber cement what a dummy iam sometimes.
while i am thinking about it, what do most of you guys see on a habitat site that you would do different ? or things that you see daily that would help in lower budget housing. thanks for all the input.
shuff
Mike: I also have self drilling screws - but from Grabber. For those of us who don't do this all the time, they don't drill all that well, so I took to drilling pilot holes in the Hardie w/ a carbide tipped brill bit. The fluted undersides of the screw heads do a fine job of seating them flush, but the pilot holes sure save a lot of cussing & boogered up boards. I have a friend helping me. We mark the top of the board, screw a block on that line at each end of the bldg, one of us holds the Hardie up against the blocks while the other drills, We sink two screws near the center of the Hardie while it is being held hard up against the blocks then go to work individually driving the rest of the screws. We put a screw in every stud. Works slicker than that snot dipped eel I mentioned previously that isn't allowed in our house by the couth officer. Not efficient, I'll grant you, but effective as Heck!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Speaking of Hardiplank and Habitat: Habitat in conjunction with Dwell magazine and an art center in North Carolina sponsored a competition for a nicer (with more amenities, "green", "sustainable" and all that) Habitat house. I entered. My house proposed using cementitious board siding or Ondura (usually a roofing material--corrugated asphalt panels). I also proposed solar assisted (hot water tanks to capture extra heat in winter) heat pump for heat. My design wasn't one of the ten chosen to be built. Rats!
glad to hear that people out there recognize the need for innovate new materials and techniques that relate to habitat. just because we build a lower priced home doesnt mean we need to sacrifice quality,efficency, and alternate material choices. good for you for ypur proposal. sorry you didnt win, but hey i get shot down all the time.
shuff
I like using Hardi too - great stuff, and paint sticks better than glue. I've actually been using the Mason's Select "stain" with good success.
I think using it for Habitat homes is a great idea, but would not use it unless I could be sure it is nailed/screwed into the studs. To my mind, it is too heavy to rely on off-stud joining (particularly where there is the potential for high winds).
I use 3/8" thick by 1" wide furring strips over the top of the housewrap, on top of each of the studs. This creates a little airspace behind the siding to let it dry out when water gets behind the siding. If you used similar furring strips over the top of the foam, it might help prevent the waviness factor earlier Bearktimers have mentioned.
Wylie
Success = Work+ Risk + Luck, in that order. Muriel Seibert
I guess you didn't go to the Hardie website, which tells you that you can install Hardieplank over foam up to 1" thick.
Framing Requirements:
Hardiplank lap siding can be installed over braced wood or steel studs spaced a maximum of 24" o.c. or directly to minimum 7/16" thick OSB sheathing. Hardiplank lap siding can also be installed over foam insulation up to 1" thick.† Irregularities in framing, sheathing, and/or foam insulation can mirror through the finished application. A weather-resistive barrier is required *. Install Hardiplank siding with joints butted in moderate contact. Optionally, install the lap siding with a maximum 1/8" gap and caulk the joint ** (see detail).
i know that hardi can be installed over foam but my concern is the general appearence of the finished product over foam. "irregularities in framing,shaething and/or foam insulation can mirror through the finished application" this is what worries me . the irregularities are the volunteers that put up the siding overblue board and overdriving nails causing the foam to compress.
shuff
Sorry to sound like i was dissing you, but it sounded like everyone but the manufacturer was being consulted.
That said, i'm a rather experienced DIY and i'm still screwing it on. The edges are fairly brittle, and while i can whack a hammer as well as the next gal, i like the control screws allow...and i'm not working for speed, only quality, which seems more like what you are doing compared to the pro siding guys who have all the proper toys. You can 2-3 screw guns for the price of siding nailer, and no one ever carelessly drove a screw through the next guy's wrist.
I used foam (over sheathing actually, since i blew cels in the cavities) held on with 1x2 furring strips. This gives me a thermal break, good attachment to a flat plane, and a rain screen to prevent mold issues. You have add another 3/4" reveal to the doors and windows, but that looks nicer, too.
seems like a decent size group of people around here are using screws to attach hardi. what size, style, and lengt are you using? are you using cordless,screwgun like for drywall, or corded drill?
shuff
I tried a torx-head screw i got at HD, put out by Western States, made in Taiwan. The heads drive way easier than a Phillips, nor do i have the problem of some square-head screws sticking on certain square-head drivers. These things drive and release beautifully. I forget what i paid, but whatever they cost, the ease is worth it to me. They are yellow zinc coated, rated for exterior use by the manufacturer. I hope that doesn't void any warranties about a particular coating specified, but they will be blind-screwed anyway and not subject to direct moisture. I'm using 8x1-1/2. Also impressive...a torx driver tip was included in each box!
These screws sound great, splint. What area are you in? Are you predrilling the holes, or just letting 'em rip?
Thanks
I livei n Montana, but since i picked these up at Home Depot, i'd guess they aren't rare. They don't have a drilling point so i've found pre-drilling to actually save time. I've used TiN-coated bits so far,but i'd like to experiment with carbide-tipped bits.
forgot to ask how far people are setting the screwheads into the hardi?
have any of you been caulking the lap joints?
Personally, I don't caulk lap joints. We're talking lap and not butt, right? Little square of felt paper at butt joints is good to go. Regarding lap joints, although the intention is always to never let water back there, that would be the place for it to get out, should it find it's way back there. Don't think I'd want water trapped between two layers of Hardie, primed or not, for too long.
To answer another of your questions... the thing I would most like to see done differently on Habitat sites is.....drum roll please..... lose the vinyl siding! Guess we're onto something here, huh?
im with you there? good news losing the vinyl siding going to hardi. let some people in the office take a look at some of the posts and it finally sinks in that we are trying to build the house to last so what better way than using a better product. gotta work on the soffit and fascia now. thanks.
shuff
I'll probably get dumped on for bringing this up, but when we did our Masonite, we used the aluminum joints and corners. Not as architecturally pure, but the corners give the job a slightly "lighter" look (one that my wife preferred) and the joint pieces eliminate any need to caulk there or back with felt. Using the corners lets you place the end of the plank flush with the edge of the sheathing, so that the other end of the plank will fall on a stud (if you're starting from the right end), and it eliminates any caulking there.
I am using a makita cordless impact driver, 1 5/8" ss screws from McFeeley's. I forget the price, but their website has it. I set the screw heads flush w/ the siding, blind of course. I also use the Kett shears, what an improvement over the regular circular saw w/ fibercement blade. Quiet, no dust, quick. I am using screws primarily because I have SIP's and the only alternative, according to Hardie, is to use 2x2 furring strips. While that would make for a nice rainscreen design, I thought it would mess up the window and door look.
sorry for the delay in responding, i have been driving around to some of the high end job sites tryin to get a peek at some of the install practices around here. i also talked to a siding contractor who is using some similar tools that you reference to. any tips for the best purchase of some of these tools? (especially the shears)
shuff
Mike: I think you are the poster who mentioned putting Hardi over SIP's. I have another challenge for all of you. I have Hardi hung on PolySteel ICF's. L:ooks like Heck, and that's being polite. Problem is that the galvanized furring strips are discontinuous up the wall w/ about 6" gaps. that means that every so many planks I have screw heads showing. Truly sucks! I have looked at it for about 4 yrs, now, and got disgusted. (Understatement - it is a festering, sucking chest wound! Every time I look at it I comment to GW that I'm gonna rip it off & do it over. Finally, after several years, she agrees!) Finally figured out how to fix it w/o laying a 1X furring strip on for nailers. I'm going to a local sheet metal fabricator and have some "U" shaped channels made that will span the furring strips, but run bottom to top. I'll run my skill saw along each side of the existing galvanized strips, sink the channels flush w/ the surface & screw the siding to the channels. Naturally most of the screws will penetrate my channels and the existing furring, holding the whole fungible mass together (It really isn't fungible - I just like that word.). Already tried - the existing Hardi comes off like a dream, so I can reuse most of it. Probably on my well house, and put the new stuff on my real house. Also give me a chance to replace a botched brick mould job around one window.
Anyone have better suggestions?
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Polysteel website has(d) details for that situation. They suggested 18 gauge sheet metal spanning the existing furring strips if you came to an attachment spot with no strip available. You can go horizontal or vertical.
I wish now I had done more of it when doing my siding and DW.
shufff don't get sucked into this "decent sized group of people screwing fiber cement on"...
that would be a decent sized group of DIY'ers..
one project does not a qualified expert make
if you want to apply FC.. stick to nailguns.... roofing guns for blind nailing..
sidewall guns with SS nails for face nailing
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike-
I don't know if you were referring to my post, but.......
shufff don't get sucked into this "decent sized group of people screwing fiber cement on"...
but the reason I am using screws is because, as I mentioned, I am attaching to SIP's- so I have no studs to nail to. This is one of the two ways Hardie requires for attaching to SIP's.
that would be a decent sized group of DIY'ers..
Yes, I am a DIY'er if that means I don't do it for a living. It doesn't mean that I haven't done my homework to figure out a competent way to complete the job, nor that I don't have the skills to do it. (It usually does mean that I am way slower than professionals!)
one project does not a qualified expert make
I never claimed to be an expert, only related the findings of my discussions with Hardie and my experiences doing it their way.
if you want to apply FC.. stick to nailguns.... roofing guns for blind nailing..
sidewall guns with SS nails for face nailing
As I said, in my case I have no studs to nail to, so nailguns are useless for me. While Shuff does not have the same issues as I do (SIP's), I was simply trying to relate my experiences with the siding.
I hope this doesn't seem too defensive.......
mike..... don't get offended.... it ain't meant for your case .. and even if it was .. who cares..
my only point is .. unless you have a special situation... forget about screws and predrilling...
FC is a 21st century product .. let's use some up-to-date application methods...
if you don't own a nailgun... rent one...
most people should be blind nailing with galv. roofing nails... and face nailing with SS..
or you could limit your predrilling and handnailing to the face nail portions only...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>> FC is a 21st century product
What???
c'mon dunc.... r u gonna quibble on this ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'll stop quibbling if you'll stop blathering. Fiber cement is not a 21st Century material. Or if it is, then so are fiberboard and PVC.
dunc.. as rich beckman put it.......bite meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike...ya miss the Habitat house part?
They're ALL DIYs!
exactly... diy.. getting advice from diy.... oy yaiMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike, tahnks for the input. i still will have to find an alternative to the nail guns while we have volunteers on the site. so thats why my curiuosity was looking at screws. if you were having to hand bang what would you suggest? thanks.
shuff
if i had to hand nail.... i'd still use a hot dipped galv roofer and blind nail...my guess is you'd have to pre-drill most of them..
if you can premark your stud locations ( or your nailing locations) you can punch the FC with a nailset if the FC is laid on a solid plank so you won't blow out the back
for face nailing where required, i'd predrill and use a SS ringshank siding nail..
pushig the FC in with your had to get firm contact and them nailing flush is about the best, don't try to set the face nail.. just nail it firm and paint over itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks for the advice mike. why dont i just host a habifest so you can come to sunny georgia and show me some the techniques you mention. i visited with several contractors yesterday that use most of the same practices, weird thing is so many variations on corner boards and starter strip. any suggesstions? alsi any thoughts on how you terminate the last piece of siding when it meets the soffit?(we will still be using vinyl soffit so im trying to figure out that termination to the f channel) thanks again for all of your advice.
shuff
for starter strip we rip PT to about 3/8 ( x 1.5" )....
most of our jobs use vinyl soffit.. at the wall side we use a piece of upside down J-mold and slip the last piece and the rip up into the J..
usually we use 7/8 J-mold for that...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike, what about corners? what have you been using? i have actually seen a contractor use vinyl corners, seems to look good but i dont know if this is exactly what i would like to do. thanks again.
shuff
mike, thought i would clarify something. when i said vinyl corners i was refering to those that would be used during a typical vinyl siding jobs. also, i saw some pics of the 2 story addition you are doing and really like the pic that shows the soffit. any chance we could get a good shot of what your doing on the fascia? is that coil stop?and what did you terminate the soffit to on the fascia side? thanks again and great looking work.
shuff
hey yall i know some of u have been around since masonite was the cats ####.hopefully we will be around long enough to see about this hardy board which i absolutely detest hangin it painting it looking at it every morniing when i pull up to the job and just look at it till the guys get here.hope im wrong but i am already seeing things on the coast of nc that i fer sure dont like but.....the wise ones here have spoken so i guess i just wasted about 19 mins of my time typeing
Why do you hate it so much? I love it, myself. Would like to hear more about what you've seen happening to it on the coast.
bud.. i feel yur pain..
my choice in high school was 3d year latin or typing.. i chose typingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
for corners we usually use 5/4 x 4 or 5/4 x 6 GP PrimeTrim..
but if the budget and color scheme allowed.. i'd probably use 5/4 Aztec or Koma..
check out my 2 story addition theread later for pics of the soffit detail..
gotta go meet dinosaur and ryan to hear the story of their truck travails and wilderness journey with kostelloMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, thanks for all the input. i will be looking forward to those pics and updates on your project. the work looks great , i thank all of you for your input and hope to bounce a few more ideas around pretty soon. thanks
shuff
mike, thought of another question for you. what do you use when sealing the bottom pllate to a slab? we get the dow sill seal that comes in rolls but they have also just used caulk to seal that space before i got here. any preferred method?also, i am thinking about sheathing wallsbefore we stand them. i think this might help on the front end and will eliminate some ladder time wit volunteers. any thoughts?
shuff
I too say bravo for the change to hardi and, like most everyone else that replied, blue dow board wouldn't be my favorite product to install hardi over. But if you get it free by the tractor trailor load, I would probably put it on the wall too. Bottom line is that it will work as my crews have installed many squares of hardi on walls sheathed with dow board for some of my builders who don't want to pay $18.59/sht for osblah. Also, dont waste your time with the clips that join 2 boards between the studs, the 12 ft length of hardi breaks on a stud @ 16 or 24 in o c.
thanks for the reply, seems to be the consensus on not using the clips. i think planning and utilizing the off cuts to minimize waste will be key when dealing with volunteers. any thoughts on what you use for the starete strip? thanks again for all the input.
shuff
When we did our house I ripped the Masonite into 2-inch-wide strips for starter. Dipped them in Moorewhite red, but that probably wouldn't be necessary with Hardi.
In your situation I would use a simple lattice strip. It's not as thick as the HB but I,ve used it numerous times with fine results. It's also readily available and easy for some of your less exp volunteers to install ahead of the siding team. I would also avoid the screw idea but thats my opinion, it may work better for your situation.
If you use wood, be sure to dip it in primer or some such first. Water tends to splash into the area.
I have about 4 yrs w/hfh (
I have about 4 yrs with hfh. when I started they were using 4X8
sheets on the walls. for the volunteers it was to difficult to install
squarely and in a straight line , etc and came out looking pretty rough
I thought. they shifted to HB lap siding (better) but still problems
esp. with siding butted against the trim (difficult to get good tight
but joints again using onetime-sometime volunteers) and currently install
the trim over the HB. for either kind of HB siding the power nailers (IMHO)
were a fiasco. Broken edges, multiple nails, and inability to set the
depth ( overdriven so the nail heads were set to deeply, underdriven so that
the nails had to be hammered in). I worked with a pro occasionlly and the
nailers worked pretty well, but pro's are kind of hard to come-by.
cuts were mostly done with shears and again the casual volunteer had
had a bit of trouble getting square straight edges.