Hello All,
I am new to the forum, new to home owning and new to remodeling. Before buying a house I have never swung a hammer in my life. But I am learning. I have several projects under my belt, including framing, windows, plumbing and some others projects.
Anyways, my next project is to install some hardwood floors. I bought these “recycled” from a church. They are maple flooring, but they were used in a gymnasium, so they have paint on them. I have two questions.
1. Recommendations for removing the paint on the floors. These boards have never been refinished or sanded, so there is plenty of life in them. Should i run them through a planer and then lay them down, or should I lay them down and just sand it off with the floor sander?
2. I had to replace some the the sub-floor in the house (dry rot). It has been awhile but I believe it was 1 1/18″. But the new sub-floor doesn’t match up with the old sub-floor. There is close to 1/16″ difference in height. What should I do to fix this issue?
Any other tips and tricks would be appreciated too. I have never installed flooring before, and I am doing as much reading and research as I can.
Thanks in advance
-Jason
Replies
How old are these floorbds? Prior to the late 70's lead paint would be an issue with sanding in place.
1/16th difference? no worries, the flooring can bridge that much, tho seaming right on the joint might be a problem. Use strips of felt paper, roofing or even low grade wood shingle (backers) for the transition. A product like Dependable floor patch (trowelable) might work-you run the risk of it cracking and breaking up as you run your flooring.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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Install first, then sand. The finish that is on the flooring would be very hard on planer blades, and then you'd still need to sand to re-finish.
At that variation spot, you could knock it down with abelt sander pretty quick, or you could use an extre strip of 30# felt as a shim there to graduate the rise.
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Be very careful about sanding.. You can do more damage with the typical drum sander than good.. (without the experance or training on how to do it properly) Instead rent one of those square pad (around 20"x24") vibrating sanders.. they are slightly slower but there is no risk of gouging like there is with a drum sander.. If the rental house doesn't have those you can use a DA type sander but they are even slower and don't get squarely into the corners like the squarepad sanders do.
As for height differances thin plywood (like Luan), heavy cardboard (not corragated), paper, shingles, etc. work fine as shims to bring things flush.
Next make your life easier and safer.. use shellac for the floor.
Shellac is tough, durable, safe, fast drying (500 sq.ft. will take you about 2 hours to do completely, no waiting for the next day to put another coat on), easy and it makes a finish like no other finish will. (it's used for fine violins and valuable antiques)what's more it doesn't have that cheap plastic look that most floor finishes do. Oh, it's probably the least expensive finish too! What's more if damaged it's insanely easy to repair without any sanding.. seriously you can repair the damage in your go to church suit! (great parlor trick, just remember to say abra cadbra if children are watching)
I'll be glad to give you simple step by step directions. Just ask.
You guys are awesome!! Thanks for the pointers. Frenchy, any help you can give would be appreciated. I have looked online at a few sites, talked with some other "installers", and have my home depot book (it works good as a bug smasher).My understanding is to lay the vapor barrier. Them mark out 3/8 " for my starting wall. Snap a line and start laying it out. The first row or 2 I have to top nail and countersink the nails with a punch.1) I do need to know a good way of recutting the tongue and groove. Like I said these are recycled, so a lot of them are a munched up on the ends.2) Any suggestions on what vapor barrier to use? Nails or cleats, sizing? 3) I already know the answer, but i will ask. Will these cheap nailers on ebay do the job? Or are they going to cause me grief and headache? Thanks again guys, i do appreciate it
-Jason
Edited 8/27/2009 5:25 pm ET by 2ndmoto
The fastest cheapest way to clean up the edges is with a router and the correct bits. Routers are something you will want if you intend to do much woodworking so it's worth buying a decent one..
Porter Cable makes a pretty decent (not the best but then not the most expensive either) router.. you don't need a plunge router for what you intend to do but having that option isn't bad either.. The really cheap ones (harbor frieght) don't seem to last very long. and the Craftsmen ones aren't a lot better (sadly I know from experiance)
Buying cutting bits is pretty straight forward.. I've used them from http://www.Grizzly.com they aren't terribly expensive and definately not junk.
As for vapor barrier you may or may not need a vapor barrier. It depends on what's underneath the subfloor.. If it's a conditioned basement (heated and cooled) and not damp then instead of a vapor barrier you should use pink rosin paper.. Home Depot sellds it and I have used theirs with great success.
If it is a damp basement or slab you'll want to use felt paper. (tar paper) I don't like it because I can smell it for years afterwords when the sun heats things up.. (that's the main reason I prefer rosin paper) If it is a damp basement, you'll want to be sure the back side of the flooring has a coat of finish on it.. . Not to beat a dead horse here but shellac is the best finish, the first coat dries in 15 minutes dries hard enough to walk on without leaving footprints dry..
Failing to put a finish on the back side will cause the wood to absorb moisture and tend to curl up. (sideways not lengthwise)
As for nailing the edges I've had several people tell me that those Harbor Frieght nailers are pretty decent for this type of application. Not what the pros want but good enough..
Edited 8/27/2009 5:43 pm ET by frenchy
for cleaning up the edges &T&G you don't need a router, you'll want 2 routers. The T&G bits are 2 diferent bits and once you get them set you'll nt want to mess with them unitl your done with this project.
You cna hope to match the orig T&G that's on the boards but don't be disappointed when they aren't exact match.
I'd cut clean at reverse beveled off 2-3 degrees and use a biscuit cutter for recycled ends
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but that's only 1 tool.
Quote: I'd cut clean at reverse beveled off 2-3 degrees and use a biscuit cutter for recycled endsI dont know what that means. I am very wet behind the ears (but even I know that Home Depot book was about as good of an investment as an igloo house in Arizona). I was kinda figuring on 2 routers, just to be fast on cutting. (Frenchy, you kick ####!! If there was rep points on this site I would be handing them out. I owe you a drink or a $5.99 lunch for sure!)I just have a crawl space, and it is not heated, so tar paper it is. Any particular weight I should be using?Thanks to all of you for you pointers. This is a damn nice site. I am still curious to know whether to use cleats or staples, and it there are better grade of either that I should be using.Any pointers on picking out drapes?? LOL-Jason
reverse bevel = a cut that is not at 90° to the surface of the wood. It'll cut back the wood enough so that any irregualites of the cut below the surface don't interfere with getting a tight joint at the surface. or that's what I think Pif was talking about.
and if you've never seen a biscuit joiner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit_joiner
so make that 3 tools.
Drapes = DWs AO
chop saw gets the count up to three - though he could do this with a hand held circ saw and speed square.
Not that I'd recommend it for all those hundreds of cuts.
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When you refer to recutting T&G ends of boards, I assume the short end not the long side running parallel to the grain.Using routers to remake those is difficult, sometimes dangerous, and very time consuming as a home based operation.Instead, I use the chop saw to cut the old off clean. I do it witha back bevel of about 2-3 degrees. What that does is to amke sure that the bottom of the board does not contact its opposing mate before the top does, so you get a nice tight joint at the top where you see it.Proper flooring T&G bits will do the same, but I doubt that you will find them for a router. Flooring is milled so the bottom portion of the grooved is shy of the top. Most people trying to DSIY this are not aware and use normal T&G bits so they end up with gaps on top.After making the end cuts, you use a biscuit cutter and a biscuit ( probably #20) with glue to set ends together.fact is too, that I have laid a lot of flooring with no joint other than a back bevel cut and some glue. That is the older way. T&G end joints only became necessary when they started using a lot of shorts in floors.You have to watch out for some of frenchies advice. he obsesses over certain things and is full of bull on others, but his advice isn't too bad on flooring and shellac, etc. Just be warned to take him with a grain of salt.
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Or you can buy one router, do all the tongues and switch bits and then do all the grooves.. One router two bits..
That much flooring with old gobs of stuff - make that six bits.
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" have my home depot book (it works good as a bug smasher)."ROTFLMAOGood one!Now where were we...oh yes, frenchy is giving flooring lessons......
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RE question 3: Look for a good brand name flooring nailer on eBay or Craig's List. When you are done with it put it back up for sale, and you should get at least 90% of your money back, and might even make a profit. The other alternative is to rent one. But, this far I've lost less buying a used tool off ebay, and reselling it, than renting.
just for grins and giggles,before you nail this stuff down,take a pc and go out and sand it clean. some of these floors get a new coat of poly ever 2 years,never sanded back to bare wood.lots of build up.
you might find such a build up it will kill you to sand it once installed.
i mean what have you got to lose,15 mins?
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Thanks for the Tip, I will give it a try. I think i actually did sand a piece, but i have had this flooring for a few years.Yes 2ndmoto is a motocross term. From my youth, and I was never fast, 1st or 2nd moto.. I always had a fast bike, but it didnt make up for the lack of skill
Sorry about the off subject here
The 2nd moto used to be just the beginning of a long Sat/Sun for me in my youth
Did 4 20min +2 lap moto's (2 class') and them a 40+2 money moto a day almost every weekend
Now just watching the 2nd moto on tv wears me out
Wonder how many here will understand this
Ok back to your subject
Good luck with the floor
PS please fill out your profile
This spring my sons and I prepped some used maple gym flooring that I had picked up off of Craigslist. For $50 we got the leftovers from someone else's job which meant that we got alot of pieces for the lane with a deep purple paint. It was enough for one bedroom.
Our flooring had 1987 stamped into it so I wasn't worried about lead, but it can be a very dangerous thing.
I own an infrared paint remover, silentpaintremover.com. They can be rented from their site as well. One son would pull nails while I heated than removed 90% of the finish and paint with carbide paint scrapers. My other son squared ends. I wanted to remove as much finish as I could in my shop so that dust wouldn't be in our house.
We stickered our pile and let it acclimate through the last of our heating season and laid it before things got damp up here. We then rented a three head random orbit floor sander. I started with 36 grit to level a few edges then progressed up through the grits. I was done sanding in less than an hour because we had already removed the finish and the floor sander was such a machine.
One coat of the Depot universal sealer, shellac, than four coats of their water based topcoat over two days. We are very happy with the results and will do it again for the rest of the house as time allows.
You might want to hire someone to sand the floors. Since these are re-cycled I would suspect that there will be lots of dings and dents that you might want to remove. The rental sanders are toys in comparison to what a professional will bring to do the job. Like Frenchy, I also made my own flooring and finished it myself. I used a rental sander, but all of my boards were within 1/32" (or less) thickness so I had little sanding to do. Even with this little thickness difference it was still almost a day to prep 600sqft of Brazillian Cherry. A commercial belt sander is definetly not something you want to tackle. If you dont want a huge mess, try to find a company that uses equipment with a good vacuum (Bona makes many sanders). If you dont mind some character scars, then you can sand it yourself, but expect to go through a lot of discs getting through the old finishes.
Please do some research for your install. There have been an endless number of discussions about this topic. I suggest you follow the National Flooring recommendations for the install. Another option is to download the installation instructions from anyone of the large flooring suppliers provide on their websites. Please avoid the temptation of following the "Get er done" crowd in any respect with this project. Piffin, John and a couple others in your thread will never lead you astray because this is what they do for a living and have been for quite some time. Some of others, myself included, are handymen at best that have completed installs such as this only a few times.
By the way, LRH Enterprises does make a five piece flooring router set that you could use for end matching the old boards (or fixing damaged tongue & grooves), but I doubt you wanna drop $500 on that plus all of the other extras you would need.
When it comes to the finish, again, do some research. The shellac option is something you may wish to consider, but not a lot of the professionals all agree on this. There are tons of heated debates on this topic and I see no need to revisit this topic.
Good luck
Brad
Piffins a good guy and he tries real hard to help others.. We have a conflict (aside from politics {grin}) because he makes his living doing this and I am an avid D-I-Y type person.
His approach involves cost which includes labor, my approach is extremely cost sensitive too but I consider labor free. We also have differant goals. His is to earn a living while mine is to build something I can take pride in. (opps, that's perjorative, I'm sure Piffin takes pride in his work too)
The differance is I'm not committed to proven techniques. I would rather go for excellance without respect for traditional methods of working..
For example I made my own flooring. From cheap wood. Well it was black walnut but I was able to buy it really cheap.. Then instead of cutting it into narrow strips (2 1/4 in.) I left it wide, up to 14 inches wide.. to maximise the look I did a random width sort of pattern. a 12 inch piece next to a 3 inch piece, next to an 8 inch piece next to a 2 inch piece, etc..
Wide pieces like that are usually face nailed. Instead I screwed all my planks down and made plugs to cover the screw holes.. By careful selection of plugs I was able to almost make theplugs disappear.
IN addtion in order to keep the wood as wide as Possible I cut a groove on both sides of the planking and inserted a spline.
NO flooring installer would go to that length, they could never turn a profit. but my labor was free and I only paid 17 cents per square foot for the black walnut. Figuring everything My cost for 1000 sq.ft. of black walnut flooring was only $300. Done and finished. If you'd like to see some of that flooring go to 86666.13
Now surprisingly, that's not the hard part.. I'm saving that for my great room..
Here I paid 40 cents a bd.ft. but the boards are either all white hard maple 19 feet long (without flaws such as knots or any dark wood) they are up to 14 inches wide.
Or, drum roll please, 22 inch wide burl . Yeh, like the dash board of a Rolls Royce. I will do a picture frame in the center of the room. The burl will will be highlighted with Bloodwood framed in brass.
The really strange part is there will be no signs of fastners from up on top.. what I intend to do is screw them to the floor from below.. In other words, predrill for each plank and then install the plank with screws from below.
Counting everything I'll have about $1000.00 into the great room floor.. (28'x22')
This sort of thing is possible if and only if you think outside the box.. All of my wood came directly from a sawmill. Rough sawn and green.. I air dried it myself, milled it myself and did all the shaping myself.. Instead of buying wood from one of those custom sawmills I went and found a sawmill that normally sold railroad timbers and pallet wood.. the going price for pallet wood is 17 cents. the going price for a railroad timber (before it's treated) is $20.00 Once you understand the requirement to meet pallet grade standards You understand I'm buying the same wood lumberyards and big box stores sell for $9.00 a bd.ft. for only 17 cents a bd.ft. (yes there is that much profit)
My whole house is like that, well outside the box of normal construction..
But it's really efficent, done with as much care as I can muster, and astonishly inexpensive considering everything..
Too show you how cheap.. a normal house this size would have a lumberyard cost just for the studs etc. of around $85,000..
My whole house with 50,000+ bd.ft. of hardwood, some really great hardwood, cost only $25,000.
Serious question. How are you thicknessing/planing the wide burl? You have access to a wide belt thicknesser?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Yes, I bought one.
My planner only goes to 20 inches wide but if I shove it to one side then the other I can get another whole inch through.. However since the planks are 22 inches wide I could bring myself to saw off an inch so I bought one..
I've also got a bar top that's 28 inches wide (10/4) of black walnut and a few other wide boards. So I could sorta justify it..
What brand? I ran SCMI and Timesavers, the dual belts on the SCMI wins hands down, but it was 40 grand.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Sick, that is absolute sickness. I want to see pictures of your work!! I cant figure out how to pull up that post. if you can send them to my email [email protected]Anyways, I can appreciate both your sides, efficiency and over the edge/outside the box. But frenchy, i think you are wrong on saying you cant make money thinking out of the box. Most people just dont want to pay for it. From the sounds of it, you are doing incredible work, and are leagues above me and my skill. I am a perfectionist, but I dont have the craftsmen skill to back me up. For this job I am about efficiency. This is my 1st house, and it is only 1300 sq ft, in a lower blue collar neighborhood. I think my next house I will try better things. $300 for a 1000sq ft...unreal, I think I was just under a dollar a sq ft for this recycled, but I do not have the knowledge/skill or tools to work rough wood into usableI love the idea of the biscuit jointer, I think that is the route I will go. Check thickness of paint/coating, Vapor barrier, coat the bottom of the wood, stapled and biscuits. 4 headed sander with respirator. Check, as long as I remember to put the right side up...I think I will be OKThanks again
-Jason
Would it surprise you that I had very little previous experiance before I started this house? Oh I did the odd job but all of my wood working tools were purchased for this place..
OK how to bring up the pictures..
Go all the way over to the left where the subjects are listed.. at the top there is advanced search click on that. scroll to the bottom and enter the number I gave you press search and poof. there you have it.. don't forget to scroll through all the posts when you're done with one number repeat and enter the other number..
85891.1 & 94941.1
Being such an old man, frenchy is a bit of a luddite when it comes to computers, so I made a live link for youhttp://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&ft=0ctx=&gfc=1msg=85891.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&ft=0ctx=&gfc=1msg=94941.1
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Ehhhh...I get the copper pipe thread LOL.
I still wanna know what sander Frenchy bought, you ever plane Burl?
Might have another thread for that ...hmmm?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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he say he did it, or that he is going to do it?I glazed over that one, thinking what a sin to walk on a nice piece of burl when it could become a table worth thousands.
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Going to, but aquired the wide belt sander already. Like a Timesaver.
He should sell that if he's that unemployed, they don't make money sitting idle.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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why should I sell something that I'm going to need?
The bills are current.. I owe nothing except my mortage. (current)
I guess you haven't thought things through very well.. I mean I am going to need it for the flooring and the bar counter top plus several other projects.
How much will I lose by selling it now? What should I do with the money? how much more will it be when I buy one in the future?
Finally why sell now? Many, many, cabinet shops are closing up and there is a lot of tooling flooding the market. Thus prices are in the toilet..
with your lack of response as to the make of the machine, I have my doubts that it exists. Your predisposition to posting inaccurate info. causes me wonder.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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You never asked for the make and model.. Since you are now (I assume) It's a Grizzly Model G0458. It will handle up to 36 inch wide. Thus my bar top and the planks should be real easy handling.. I already have 10' long infeed and outfeed rollers. So it shouldn't be too much of a big deal.. I have noticed when using it that it is much more sensitive to thickness than my planner but that just means I'll have to make a few more passes. (burl boards don't dry nice and flat, instead they tend to be bumpy/lumpy)
I asked a few posts back, I thought you were ducking me.
I am looking for an AFFORDABLE one, thats why I asked.
THNXSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I think you asked Piffin rather than me. at least that's what I get when I go back to reread things. But anyway Hopefully you've read my answer and will consider it..
ps buy several extra sanding rolls if you buy it. It tends to gum up on some woods like maple and once so gummed transfers those marks onto whatever you're sanding..
I'm looking for a wide belt sander, not a drum. Belts don't heat up and gum up as bad.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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There is a 24" SCMI Wide Belt on Machine King that looks like a good deal.
He did ask you who made it and commented on others for comparison.
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I'm impressed that you handled the response without aggressiveness, considering that Sphere appeared to be setting you up to be a liar from the beginning.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
Sphere and I do have our differances but I believe he's a decent man at heart and simply becomes a bit too direct..
Very diplomatic. I guess one could say that about almost anyone. I must add that there is nothing wrong with being direct.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
Thank you, and I can say that you fit the same bill, and I can respect your idiosyncrasies (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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You missed one big difference between us frenchy. Your advice is based on your one experience, while mine is from doing it multiple times in multiple varied circumstances.Since you are focused on cost savings, how is it more cost efficient to have him buy and use all those router bits instead of cutting clean ends and using a biscuit cutter?
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Well perhaps I read more closely than you in that he was concerned about mashed edges not ends..
The Grizzly router bits I've bought have held a edge extremely well. If you look most of my timbers have been routed with one bit (that's thousands of timbers) and the cuts now are as clean as when I started..
Grizzly router bits are not disposable like a lot of cheap bits.. . When dull they are easily resharpen.. Thus he will use 2 router bits and a router..
I don't have any objection to a biscuit jointer but that would not be my first tool to purchase. The router is a lot more versatile. Besides I question if the cuts he makes free hand will be as crisp as if he did it with a SCMS. Unless they are crisp the biscuit jointer will produce poor results.
He did not say edges, but ends, so you must be reading wrong.You can not in any way ompare any bits performance in new clean wood to re-cutting old wood that has grit and old finish on it. That is like comparing the performance of a new Ford explorer to that of a Model TI was commenting more on the best way to do this on site more than on what tools to buy. I don't know what he has.
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http://www.amazon.com/Hardwood-Floors-Laying-Sanding-Finishing/dp/0942391624/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1251498046&sr=8-1
He also had a DVD or two out there.
His website has an annoying talking feature, but Don is a good guy. I talked with him once about a herringbone project I was planning - I had no idea that I could buy all of my boards pre-cut to size (herringbone patterns can leave you needing a LOT of overage) until he brought it up.
http://www.theoakfloors.com/
Have fun, and definitely go with the 4-disk type sander. And consider getting a respirator - much better than dust masks.
-t
Jason,
I am also a diy'er and a weekend warrior. I laid a very complicated pattern of wood flooring in the vestibule of my home. I used a router table to cut the groove and a bit made for flooring to cut the tongue. It was very labor intensive, but well worth it.
Check out this Website for the bits: http://www.onlinefloorstore.com/flooracle/router+bits
Jason
I just put 2,000 square feet of hw flooring in my house. I am a do it yourselfer and couldn't get off work long enough to keep working on it continuaously. I was able to buy an Azuki power floor nailer off of amazon, It work great with no jams the entire time. spent about $200 on it. That was cheaper than renting it for the timeperiod I needed.
Not sure how much you pay for a nailer on ebay or Craig's list but I saved money on the rental. I will be selling it soon so I'm not sure how much money I will get back. Good luck with your job. I also used the vibrating rental sander mentioned in the earlies post an it worked great. I just didn't trust myself is a drum sander,
I'm gonna disagree with others about planing/sanding. If you have a planer that will do a decent job and if the boards are clean enough on the bottom that the T & G's stay aligned (and, obviously, all nail removed), you should be able to take all the paint, clear finish, and most of the dings out with one pass at about 1/32". Why sand and put all that dust in the air when you don't have to? If the planer does its job you can start sanding at 80 grit, maybe even 100. Some guys on here must like sanding more than me.
Oh, planer knives can be resharpened. Dulling them is not an issue, IMO.
"planer knives can be resharpened. Dulling them is not an issue, IMO."True, BUT...resharpening them every 2-300 lineal feet is a PITA, and then being sure that you reseat them to exact same depth is another fancy trick that does not always happen. now carbide blades will go further if the grit and paint does not chip them, but they have a high up front cost and most are disposeable.Painted gym and bowling alley floor material can require more than a simple 1/32" shave too
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I've got to agree with you on this one Piffin.. resharpening planner knives and then resetting them to the correct depth is bound to produce frustrating results.. I went so far as to use a digital micrometer to set the depths of my blades and I still was always off by a significant amount when comparing the thickness of boards..
Plus changing the blades along went from a 20 minutes job with the jig to a more than 1 hour job..
I don't know what the phobia about sanding is,, The thickness of my boards varied by more than an 8th of an inch sometimes as much as a 1/4 of an inch. and in one afternoon this old guy could level off 500 sq.ft. of wood and bring it to a finished shine. That using one of those square plate sanders.. You sart out with 24 grit and wear out two sheets of that grit then the next sanding takes less than 20 minutes and the sheet is barely worn. Go one step at a time all the way through 120 grit to the final screening which actually burnishes the wood. Splash some shellac on and you're done in one afternoon.. I wore a dust mask but apparently those big square pad sanders must have a pretty good vacum system in them because there never were clouds of dust in the air. I expected to wait over night before I could finish everything., But by the time I returned the sander and got back (rental yard is right up the street only 7 minutes away) The air was so clear I went ahead and shellaced it..